Canada to Spend $5.0Bil on AEW Aircraft

[captloadie]

Most of the suggestions in this thread are bonkers. Also, like do we want recruiting and retention to get worse? Cause more remote bases is how you make it worse.

Likely candidates are transport bases: Trenton and Winnipeg. They have ramp space.

Sleeper choices for me are North Bay and Ottawa. North Bay because that's where most of the AECs are anyway. And Ottawa because of ramp space and its stealth evolution as an air and space ISR hub.

Trenton ramp space is maxed out, more so with the introduction of the CC330.

The city of North Bay has owned and run Jack Garland Airport since 2003, and while the aerodrome could likely support the aircraft (potentially bringing in contracted support for all functions, thus alleviating the demand on CAF pers) the Wing itself would need to be increased in size to support the additional CAF personnel.

Perhaps the better solution would be to contribute to a multinational capability by contributing dollars and people, and operate out of American or European locations. It would give much more flexibility, negate the pesky procurement process, and give an incentive for CAF members to go that route.

 

[Quirky]

If only there was a base in western canada with a massive runway and endless land around it to house multiple fleets in a major city. Too bad there are buildings on it now.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Trenton ramp space is maxed out, more so with the introduction of the CC330.

But does the base really need a golf course ? Put another ramp space North on Hangar One.

(With my apologies in advance to Good-to-Golf).

 

[KevinB]

Perhaps the better solution would be to contribute to a multinational capability by contributing dollars and people, and operate out of American or European locations. It would give much more flexibility, negate the pesky procurement process, and give an incentive for CAF members to go that route.

Agreed, the only reason I can see for the RCAF to get them would be the sovereignty boost of having that capability without needing to beg us.
Which then lies the question, is getting a RCAF fleet of E-7 worth the cost?

 

[ytz]

Perhaps the better solution would be to contribute to a multinational capability by contributing dollars and people, and operate out of American or European locations. It would give much more flexibility, negate the pesky procurement process, and give an incentive for CAF members to go that route.

Agreed, the only reason I can see for the RCAF to get them would be the sovereignty boost of having that capability without needing to beg us.
Which then lies the question, is getting a RCAF fleet of E-7 worth the cost?

The motivation for the GoC to get an AEW capability is to ostensibly do more domestically (Arctic + Oceanic approaches) so that the Americans don't turn their current rhetoric about our lackadaisical approach to defence into political and economic consequences. To that end, no contribution to multinational ops will be enough. We will have to do enough here to free up American assets in Alaska.

 

[ytz]

Trenton ramp space is maxed out, more so with the introduction of the CC330.

The city of North Bay has owned and run Jack Garland Airport since 2003, and while the aerodrome could likely support the aircraft (potentially bringing in contracted support for all functions, thus alleviating the demand on CAF pers) the Wing itself would need to be increased in size to support the additional CAF personnel.

If only there was a base in western canada with a massive runway and endless land around it to house multiple fleets in a major city. Too bad there are buildings on it now.

I am not particularly wedded to North Bay as a solution. I think it's a candidate just because so much of the trade and the OTU is already there. It would be easier go to organize and spin up. But that's just one consideration.

Broadly though, I just don't buy infrastructure as a major basing consideration for a capability like this. New capabilities offer a chance to move past sunk cost fallacy that CAF/DND/GOC/Cdn taxpayer are so habituated to. We see this with 7 Wing being based in Ottawa and AETE moving to Ottawa from Cold Lake. Turns out all the ramp space in the world won't help you if you can't get the right people or can't keep them because their spouses don't think the employment opportunities at the CANEX are the pinnacle of professional life. I think the AEC community will be pushing hard for a place like Ottawa or Winnipeg. North Bay is probably QoL compromise choice ahead of Trenton and Cold Lake. Granted politics could intervene and we could end up with the kind of ridiculous decision that sent 2 Wing to Bagotville. But if the CAF has a say, I think they'll be looking at QoL over the cost of additional ramp space.

 

[YZT580]

Agreed, the only reason I can see for the RCAF to get them would be the sovereignty boost of having that capability without needing to beg us.
Which then lies the question, is getting a RCAF fleet of E-7 worth the cost?

Question: in Afghanistan, how difficult was it to get artillery/air support from one of the other forces when things went sideways but the systems were otherwise tasked? As for airports there are any number of older facilities that have been closed down that could be resurrected as an active base and are relatively close to civilization. For those favouring the west coast Port Hardy comes to mind. On the east coast there is Summerside (still has 8000 ft) In Ontario, apart from YB you could develop a decent airport at BN. The prairies all have fields that have been abandoned that could be restored to use but many are quite a ways from a major city (Gimli comes to mind All of the above would contribute towards the 2% target and any would help in the local economy without putting a strain on current resources. Developing them as reserve squadrons similar in scope to the National Guard setup in the States might help with recruitment and retention.

 

[ytz]

Question: in Afghanistan, how difficult was it to get artillery/air support from one of the other forces when things went sideways but the systems were otherwise tasked? As for airports there are any number of older facilities that have been closed down that could be resurrected as an active base and are relatively close to civilization. For those favouring the west coast Port Hardy comes to mind. On the east coast there is Summerside (still has 8000 ft) In Ontario, apart from YB you could develop a decent airport at BN. The prairies all have fields that have been abandoned that could be restored to use but many are quite a ways from a major city (Gimli comes to mind All of the above would contribute towards the 2% target and any would help in the local economy without putting a strain on current resources. Developing them as reserve squadrons similar in scope to the National Guard setup in the States might help with recruitment and retention.

These suggestions are all substantially more expensive than simply using an existing MOB, upgrading it and using Reg F personnel. Also, the air weapons trade is massively expensive to the CAF. Half that group (sub trade of AEC) is in Tinker or Geilerkirchen sucking up all kind of foreign service benefits. When we set up our own AEW capability, whatever the frame, most of those positions are moving home. That is an easy savings of $20-40k per position per year.

 

[Maxman1]

I am not particularly wedded to North Bay as a solution. I think it's a candidate just because so much of the trade and the OTU is already there. It would be easier go to organize and spin up. But that's just one consideration.

Broadly though, I just don't buy infrastructure as a major basing consideration for a capability like this. New capabilities offer a chance to move past sunk cost fallacy that CAF/DND/GOC/Cdn taxpayer are so habituated to. We see this with 7 Wing being based in Ottawa and AETE moving to Ottawa from Cold Lake. Turns out all the ramp space in the world won't help you if you can't get the right people or can't keep them because their spouses don't think the employment opportunities at the CANEX are the pinnacle of professional life. I think the AEC community will be pushing hard for a place like Ottawa or Winnipeg. North Bay is probably QoL compromise choice ahead of Trenton and Cold Lake. Granted politics could intervene and we could end up with the kind of ridiculous decision that sent 2 Wing to Bagotville. But if the CAF has a say, I think they'll be looking at QoL over the cost of additional ramp space.

Downsview Airport, formerly CFB Toronto, is up for sale. Maybe that could be converted back into a full airbase. Pers would fight over postings in there.

 

[dapaterson]

Buy the E-7, base out of YYC to leverage the WJ maintenance facilities.

 

[YZT580]

Buy the E-7, base out of YYC to leverage the WJ maintenance facilities.

and their flight crews as reserve

 

[dapaterson]

Half that group (sub trade of AEC) is in Tinker or Geilerkirchen sucking up all kind of foreign service benefits. When we set up our own AEW capability, whatever the frame, most of those positions are moving home.

If the RCAF is running true to form, they will defend OUTCAN...

 

[ytz]

Buy the E-7, base out of YYC to leverage the WJ maintenance facilities.

For half a dozen aircraft, your don't need to co-locate with heavy maintenance. And WestJet's facilities aren't needed for routine servicing.

and their flight crews as reserve

I'd be more worried about pilots going the other way than signing up to be reservists.

Downsview Airport, formerly CFB Toronto, is up for sale. Maybe that could be converted back into a full airbase. Pers would fight over postings in there.

Downsview was a fantastic posting for me. But I was single then and living out of my parents basement in Scarborough collecting PLD, so didn't mind 45 mins in Toronto rush hour traffic. Today that probably takes over an hour.

They base is going to be redeveloped for housing with Bombardier manufacturing winding down. So I'll do you one better. An E-7 squadron at YTZ is just the excuse needed to justify a runway extension and removal of the prohibition on turbofan aircraft at the Island.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Buy the E-7, base out of YYC to leverage the WJ maintenance facilities.

You mean the ones about to go on strike?

 

[ytz]

If the RCAF is running true to form, they will defend OUTCAN...

As they should. Something has to make up for Bagotville, Cold Lake, Greenwood, Petawawa, North Bay, etc.

But the amount of foreign postings, and especially at such junior ranks, is just not justifiable if we have our own AEW capability. We do it now, because it's the only way to keep the skill set.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

For half a dozen aircraft, your don't need to co-locate with heavy maintenance. And WestJet's facilities aren't needed for routine servicing.



I'd be more worried about pilots going the other way than signing up to be reservists.



Downsview was a fantastic posting for me. But I was single then and living out of my parents basement in Scarborough collecting PLD, so didn't mind 45 mins in Toronto rush hour traffic. Today that probably takes over an hour.

They base is going to be redeveloped for housing with Bombardier manufacturing winding down. So I'll do you one better. An E-7 squadron at YTZ is just the excuse needed to justify a runway extension and removal of the prohibition on turbofan aircraft at the Island.

You magnificent bastard…

 

[dapaterson]

You mean the ones about to go on strike?

Better than when AC spun off maintenance, then had it go bankrupt (A310s enter the chat).

 

[dapaterson]

They base is going to be redeveloped for housing with Bombardier manufacturing winding down. So I'll do you one better. An E-7 squadron at YTZ is just the excuse needed to justify a runway extension and removal of the prohibition on turbofan aircraft at the Island.

Then we can expropriate the houses on the Islands and convert them all to PMQs.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Then we can expropriate the houses on the Islands and convert them all to PMQs.

Double magnificent bastard!

 

[dapaterson]

Double magnificent bastard!

That alone will take us above 2% of GDP.