All Things First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, residential schools, etc. (merged)

[The Bread Guy]

Question - does the lighting of fires (with our without tires) on the main east-west train lines constitute as act of 'Terrorism' as defined under current Federal legislation?

Under the 2013 Via Rail Canada terrorism trial I bring forth the following: " a conspiracy to commit terrorist acts in and against Canada in the form of disruption, destruction or derailment of trains operated by Canada's national passenger railway service, Via Rail Canada." ...

Not a lawyer, but is the fire in question itself destroying or damaging track infrastructure?  That to me would be a clear case of "destruction" if that was happening.  "Derailment" sounds like it would be easy to see/prove, too.

"Disruption"?  Is the company cancelling a train because there's a fire next to the track a fire-precipitated disruption?  That I'll leave to legal beagles.

 

[brihard]

Question - does the lighting of fires (with our without tires) on the main east-west train lines constitute as act of 'Terrorism' as defined under current Federal legislation?

Under the 2013 Via Rail Canada terrorism trial I bring forth the following: " a conspiracy to commit terrorist acts in and against Canada in the form of disruption, destruction or derailment of trains operated by Canada's national passenger railway service, Via Rail Canada."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Via_Rail_Canada_terrorism_plot

The part about 'in the form of disruption, destruction....of trains' - one could argue that the lighting of fires on the tracks is a form 'disruption, destruction....of trains'

Thoughts? 

It would certainly fan the flames across Canada, but I'm not certain how a ISIS supporter taking a few 50 litre containers of gas, pouring it over the CN rail lines WEST of Belleville and planting an ISIS flag is much different than a bunch of guys doing the same thing EAST of Belleville and planing a Mohawk Warrior flag.  The result is the exact same - the 'disruption, destruction....of trains'

Not at all. Not even close. “Terrorism” has a very high threshold, and with good reason. Stunts like that are routine criminal mischief. There’s nothing inadequate about the laws covering such things. We don’t want to fall into the American trap of throwing the ‘Terrorism’ term around too willy nilly, lest it lose its significance.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Not at all. Not even close. “Terrorism” has a very high threshold, and with good reason. Stunts like that are routine criminal mischief. There’s nothing inadequate about the laws covering such things. We don’t want to fall into the American trap of throwing the ‘Terrorism’ term around too willy nilly, lest it lose its significance.

Straight from the Government of Canada website -

"In Canada, section 83.01 of the Criminal Code[1] defines terrorism as an act committed "in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause" with the intention of intimidating the public "…with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act." Activities recognized as criminal within this context include death and bodily harm with the use of violence; endangering a person’s life; risks posed to the health and safety of the public; significant property damage; and interference or disruption of essential services, facilities or systems."

The italics I have added to highlight areas where this argument can be made.

 

[AbdullahD]

Not a lawyer, but is the fire in question itself destroying or damaging track infrastructure?  That to me would be a clear case of "destruction" if that was happening.  "Derailment" sounds like it would be easy to see/prove, too.

"Disruption"?  Is the company cancelling a train because there's a fire next to the track a fire-precipitated disruption?  That I'll leave to legal beagles.

I'll preface an answer as to track damage, with my experience. I have spent last two summers on work trains, working with engineering to maintain and build track. We also have quite regular fires up here intentional or not and fires that trains start themselves, either by using air brakes in the summer or from the weight creating friction on the ties.

Now depending on the track speed, location  etc they could be using concrete ties, if so fires have 0% chance of affecting anything. If they are wood ties, even if the fires burn for long enough to do damage, a 25 mph slow would mitigate all of it. Also if the fire is to the outside of rail the damage it does to the integrity of the rail is reduced. Fires to the outside of the rail take a lot longer to cause damage. Also since it is a known problem foreman are either riding trains or using highrails to inspect for damages I imagine.

A derailment risk does exist, sure. I just do not think it is realistic. We also ship hydrochloric acid, diesel, propane, butane and other interesting products.. so trying to cause a derailment and sticking around to watch is idiotic in my opinion. As far as charges go as well, certain interest groups are alway trying to burn rails in the summer and I have never seen charges being laid up here.. I suspect the railways will avoid it so that they remain a byproduct of the protests not the target.

Abdullah

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'll preface an answer as to track damage, with my experience. I have spent last two summers on work trains, working with engineering to maintain and build track. We also have quite regular fires up here intentional or not and fires that trains start themselves, either by using air brakes in the summer or from the weight creating friction on the ties.

Now depending on the track speed, location  etc they could be using concrete ties, if so fires have 0% chance of affecting anything. If they are wood ties, even if the fires burn for long enough to do damage, a 25 mph slow would mitigate all of it. Also if the fire is to the outside of rail the damage it does to the integrity of the rail is reduced. Fires to the outside of the rail take a lot longer to cause damage. Also since it is a known problem foreman are either riding trains or using highrails to inspect for damages I imagine.

A derailment risk does exist, sure. I just do not think it is realistic. We also ship hydrochloric acid, diesel, propane, butane and other interesting products.. so trying to cause a derailment and sticking around to watch is idiotic in my opinion. As far as charges go as well, certain interest groups are alway trying to burn rails in the summer and I have never seen charges being laid up here.. I suspect the railways will avoid it so that they remain a byproduct of the protests not the target.

Abdullah

That's reassuring!

I'm also assuming that the train people will have a good look a the tracks before putting a train over them....

 

[AbdullahD]

That's reassuring!

I'm also assuming that the train people will have a good look a the tracks before putting a train over them....

Usually yep, not going to risk that amount of money for nothing. Plus slow orders, restricting speed etc. If we know we have to watch out for something we can usually stop before it.

I have personally ran a train over skeletonized track and all was ok, so I would rest easy (I can be wrong though lol)

Abdullah

 

[Haggis]

Québec french language media are reporting that Premier Legault has confirmed that illegal blockaders at Kahanawke have AK-47's, which is why the SQ will not immediately enforce the injunction to open the rail lines.  Of course, the Mohawk leadership strongly denies this claim, calling it "dangerous and inflammatory".

In other news, it's snowing again.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Tyendinaga protesters stand on tracks attempting to block oncoming CN freight train

https://globalnews.ca/video/6599326/tyendinaga-protesters-stand-on-tracks-to-block-oncoming-cn-freight-train/

Standing infront of the train trying to stop it. Appear to be throwing logs on the tracks. Throwing rocks at the train engine windows.

How much are we going to let them get away with?

 

[OldSolduer]

Tyendinaga protesters stand on tracks attempting to block oncoming CN freight train

https://globalnews.ca/video/6599326/tyendinaga-protesters-stand-on-tracks-to-block-oncoming-cn-freight-train/

Standing infront of the train trying to stop it. Appear to be throwing logs on the tracks. Throwing rocks at the train engine windows.

How much are we going to let them get away with?

Oka has this GoC running scared. A total abdication of leadership. At least Father T had a pair- “just watch me”

 

[Czech_pivo]

Hmmm, that second video looks close to be related to the definitions I listed above.

 

[AbdullahD]

Tyendinaga protesters stand on tracks attempting to block oncoming CN freight train

https://globalnews.ca/video/6599326/tyendinaga-protesters-stand-on-tracks-to-block-oncoming-cn-freight-train/

Standing infront of the train trying to stop it. Appear to be throwing logs on the tracks. Throwing rocks at the train engine windows.

How much are we going to let them get away with?

Bahaha those twigs and pebbles won't do jack. Hell you could be firing a .223 AR at us and I would only duck down out of prudence for safety haha.

We routinely go through trees and split them in half, those twigs would not even slow a train down. Heck one year there was a full grown fir tree that hit our windshield, only spider cracked the window. Called the diesel doc and he said he had taken an old window home and tried shooting through it.. any rate the smaller calibres had no effect at all.

Albeit that train may have been in emergency, I saw the unit brakes did not appear to be set up which generally happens when you put a train into emergency you bail off the units brakes in order to reduce derailment risks.

So they could have effectively stopped that train by being idiots on the rail, to many people commit suicide via trains and it is a very real fear when we go to work, that we may kill someone who just wants to end their life. So I suspect the crew had that train in emergency for sure.

Funny thing though much more effective means of hurting the rail industry in canada exist. Yet they do not do it.. kind of interesting.

Abdullah

P.s I am hoping the blockade up here starts again so I can stay home on pay and go to the science fair with son this friday ^^ so w00t go blockaders! Hahaha

 

[Jarnhamar]

Bahaha those twigs and pebbles won't do jack. Hell you could be firing a .223 AR at us and I would only duck down out of prudence for safety haha.

Certainly an agressive view to take which I can appreciate. Trains are pretty badass.

But I feel that's missing the point.

"Peaceful" protestors are evolving from standing on tracks trying to stop trains from passing to standing infront of moving trains. Lighting fires under trains and beside the tracks. Putting debris infront of moving trains and pelting them with rocks. Yea it's not damaging much now.

When do we start taking this more seriously? When they move derelict vehicles infront of trains? Damage the tracks infront of moving trains?



Random train porn

 

[Quirky]

When do we start taking this more seriously? When they move derelict vehicles infront of trains? Damage the tracks infront of moving trains?

Trains and tracks are easy targets because they are essentially out in the open and unguarded. These terrorists wouldn't get within a meter of an airport runway, they'd get arrested immediately. Nor would they dare get in the way of fully loaded oil tankers in Vancouver Harbour. Why is the government allowing blatant acts of terrorism on our transportation infrastructure? I hate to say this, but its time for authorities to use lethal force on these imbeciles. Send the trains through the blockades, then we will see just how dedicated they are to their cause.

 

[Altair]

Trains and tracks are easy targets because they are essentially out in the open and unguarded. These terrorists wouldn't get within a meter of an airport runway, they'd get arrested immediately. Nor would they dare get in the way of fully loaded oil tankers in Vancouver Harbour. Why is the government allowing blatant acts of terrorism on our transportation infrastructure? I hate to say this, but its time for authorities to use lethal force on these imbeciles. Send the trains through the blockades, then we will see just how dedicated they are to their cause.

There are a million first nations individuals in our country.

Lethal force on them will radicalize a good amount of them.  If even 1 percent become violent radicals,  that's 10 000 who would need to be dealt with.

So how about no.

 

[PuckChaser]

There are a million first nations individuals in our country.

Lethal force on them will radicalize a good amount of them.  If even 1 percent become violent radicals,  that's 10 000 who would need to be dealt with.

You don't need lethal force. Just lawful arrest. Attempting to derail a moving train to further a political goal is domestic terrorism. Fill the jails up. I'm willing to bet only a minority of the radicals are actually First Nations anyways.

 

[Good2Golf]

You don't need lethal force. Just lawful arrest. Attempting to derail a moving train to further a political goal is domestic terrorism. Fill the jails up. I'm willing to bet only a minority of the radicals are actually First Nations anyways.

...perhaps it is, but only for non-Canadian citizens?

2013 VIA Rail terrorism plot

Regards
G2G

 

[Altair]

You don't need lethal force. Just lawful arrest. Attempting to derail a moving train to further a political goal is domestic terrorism. Fill the jails up. I'm willing to bet only a minority of the radicals are actually First Nations anyways.

considering that those first nations have little in the terms of means to derail a train (trains are big metal beasts and will make short work for any wooden pallet) and every arrest only inspiring more activists,  a strategy of starving the movement of oxygen may be the best one.

Arrest them,  and 2 more blockades pop up. Arrest those and two more pop up for each one. Suddenly you've gone from 1 economically disruptive protest to 4. Again,  there are close to a million first nations in this country,  engaging in whack a mole will drag this out and eventually someone is going to get hurt/die

 

[PuckChaser]

considering that those first nations have little in the terms of means to derail a train (trains are big metal beasts and will make short work for any wooden pallet) and every arrest only inspiring more activists,  a strategy of starving the movement of oxygen may be the best one.

Arrest them,  and 2 more blockades pop up. Arrest those and two more pop up for each one. Suddenly you've gone from 1 economically disruptive protest to 4. Again,  there are close to a million first nations in this country,  engaging in whack a mole will drag this out and eventually someone is going to get hurt/die

So your solution is we just let them do whatever they want? Or give in to their demands and make this an acceptable means of public policy discourse?  :facepalm:

 

[MilEME09]

The other slightly less extreme is the Emergency act, which replaced the war measure's act, start arrests, and preemptive arrests, and hold them, no release on conditions, starve their man power, and blockade the roadblocks, prevent their resupply.

 

[Brad Sallows]

No need to be overwrought, with schemes to harm protestors or derive them of public benefits without due process.  Just enforce the law.  That means arrest, detention, and charges.  It's one thing to wear a conviction because you were an environmental extremist supporting someone whose position is "no pipeline".  It's another thing to be a useful idiot and go to jail for someone who later decides the price is right.

The lawful authorities should start working on some convictions now, and if the chiefs are really just holding out for a price ("no pipeline" is just an opening negotiating position), then all prospective future supporters of similar causes will have to seriously ask whether they are willing to risk jail time and a record on behalf of someone who has a dollar figure in his head.  I doubt the chiefs are going to make your bail or pay your lawyers.