Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT

[PJOsborne]

Out of my lane here - but I do spend some time reading the usual defence sites and have read some good books on tanks over the years - I've read that the composition of the different KE darts used might affect penetration performance. I know that the US APFSDS rounds tend to use DU in their penetrators and that nearly everyone else uses Tungsten Carbide (which, as I understand it, is apparently the type fired from the Leopard 2). I've also read that DU tends to sort of "peel away" when it is penetrating, thereby keeping the rough dart shape of the dart, something TC does not do.

What I'd like to know, if one of you gentlemen can be so kind to answer, is:
1. Does DU perform better than TC? and,
2. if so, is it significant, or is it splitting hairs?

Cheers in advance.

 

[AmmoTech90]

DU does perform better than tungsten below a certain velocity.  Above a certain velocity the performance gap starts to close.  Right now tungsten penetrators aren't being pushed out at that velocity, but improvements in manufacuturing techniques have helped to close the performance gap.  For now DU still has the edge if you are firing at a heavily armoured target.

 

[KevinB]

Well the CF 25mm Practice sails thru a Leo 1 turret...

 

[vonGarvin]

TPDS-T also passes from bow to stern of a BMP2 at 800 metres, not that I would know that or anything

 

[McG]

I always considered this a potential option for us for the 25mm - TPDS will definitely 'do the job' against civilian pattern vehicles.  Since 25mm APFSDS penetration is questionable against MBT from the frontal aspect and most engagements have been against grape huts, SVBIED and lighter targets, a mix of HEI-T and TP may give us better results than APFSDS.

I don't think we should get into what is actually loaded in the bins (ours or our allies).  However, I will observe that you've not considered FAPDS-T in your theoretical analysis.

 

[McG]

I tend to think some HESH should be in there for grapehuts, caves, and fortifications.  HEAT & APFSDS don't fit the current opperational enviroment though.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Public pictures at the first deployment showed them bombing up with HESH, which would also be useful if the Taliban suddenly were able to find a running T-55.

 

[tomahawk6]

Warning Well Outside My Lane.
However, my powers of googlefoo are pretty good. On the discussion of tank guns I saw where at the end of the cold war we were looking at the 140mm gun to be able to penetrate Russian future tanks with 700mm of armor or better.The M829 would not have been able to penetrate that much armor. It was estimated that today a gun needs 18 MJ muzzle energy to penetrate future armor. Electrothermal-chemical ignition is felt to be the future to be able to acheive the muzzle energies required. The lightweight 120 mm XM-291 acheived almost 17 MJ. Interesting possibilities.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/fcs-t.htm

 

[McG]

140 mm gun & 120 mm XM-291 discussions going on starting here: http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/28961/post-560637.html#msg560637

 

[ironduke57]

Just a little note. Today I read on the Bundeswehr site that additionally to the 20 Leo2 A6M you also borrow two ARV´s (probably Leo2 based Bergepanzer3 Büffel) and the needed supplies to operate them all.

Regards,
ironduke57

 

[geo]

Heh... with the incoming CF CWO being a sapper, I was sure we wouldn't be forgotten

 

[geo]

Doh!
:warstory: True, but the work that they carry out is work we don't have to worry about  :warstory:

The sappers would be real happy to see the return of the Pioneer as well  >

 

[ironduke57]

Something more about that 20+2 vehicles. An newspaper article with some number and information's about this deal:
- http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/leih-leopard_aid_57703.html
Sadly in german and I have no time ATM to translate it, but I know here are enough people who can read german and could be so nice to translate it for the rest. (To be exact sometimes I have the feeling half of the regular´s where stationed here one time or another. )

Regards,
ironduke57

 

[hammond]

Semi Translation

The most modern German tanks will pull in the future in south Afghanistan in combat - however without German crew. The German Federal Armed Forces borrow 20 battle tanks for the employment in Afghanistan to the Canadian army.
Of FOCUS-correspondent Thomas's weighing old
Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan

The Ministries of Defense of both countries agreed that the Canadian Afghanistan troop receives the combat vehicles free of charge from the German Federal Armed Forces of the type leopard 2A6M, which is equipped with a mine protection. The tanks are to replace those approximately 20 years old and worn out Leopard-C2-Kampfpanzer of the Canadian army. The hiring contract runs on well two years.

Additionally to the hiring of the 20 combat and of two armored recovery vehicles the German Federal Armed Forces committed themselves to the training of the crews at the armored troops school in Munster. The Canadians receive besides an extensive "logistics package" with special tool, spare parts and ammunition. While the Canadian army for the check-out counter the leopard 2A6M does not have to pay anything, training and logistics are charged for "to the market value". However for the training Canada pays two million euro to the German Ministry of Defense, one further million for interpreters and several million euro for the provided ammunition.

Spare parts are charged for after consumption: To return Canadians have itself obligated, combat vehicles in same condition as with supply - which could become problematic in view of the conditions in south Afghanistan and the engagements, into which the troops are complicated.

Beyond that the leopards for 16 million euro are reequipped by the German manufacturing firms Rhine metal and Kraus Maffei Wegmann on the needs of the Canadian military and the conditions in Afghanistan. In addition among other things a stronger cooling and air conditioning belong as well as in some places a stronger armoring. The Canadians besides 55 million euro into account took, if further spare parts must be procured by the industry.

Those on loan hiring of the tanks is from German view "an indication of lived alliance solidarity". Canada had originally intended to buy the tanks which failed however because of the Federal Budget order. The German Federal Armed Forces had at present scarcely 50 leopard battle tanks in this newest version, altogether 70 is to be purchased of it for the German troop.


Translated using Altavistas Bable Fish web page translator... Not the best but puts out the General Idea http://babelfish.altavista.com/

 

[Benny]

I still think the Aussies got the better deal with the M1A2's...

Not really. We bought less M1s than the Leos they replace, and unlike the CF, our Leo 1s will not be retained. On top of this, all reserve M113 units are losing them and being re-tasked.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Deja vu: Remember 1993 when the Libs made election campaign promises to scrap "cadillac helicopters"?

From the looks of things, it wont be long before they do the same thing with the new tanks:

http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=48fd3157-ea89-4d8a-8311-60c453e5d675

"Mr. Coderre questioned the military and government's claims that some of the big-ticket equipment purchases are urgently needed for the mission in Afghanistan. He cited the example of the multibillion-dollar program to buy the Chinook helicopter, which won't be delivered until 2011 or 2012. Canada's Afghanistan mission ends in February 2009, Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor has repeatedly said in the Commons.

"What strikes us is that we seem to be spending a lot of money on the back of the Afghanistan mission," said Mr. Coderre.

Mr. Coderre said equipment actually needed for use in Afghanistan would not be affected by a moratorium.

Mr. Coderre also said he was concerned some of the purchases, such as the deal to spend more than $1 billion on tanks, is coming at the expense of gear needed for domestic missions. He pointed out that the Canadian Forces program to buy new search-and-rescue planes is on hold because of a lack of money. The tanks, which won't arrive for years, are not needed, Mr. Coderre argues.
"The purpose of (the Forces) is not just international," he said. "We need equipment for the Arctic, for our domestic needs. Right now, we don't have that."

 

[Genetk44]

The tanks won't arrive for 5 years????????  I'm sure I read that we're getting them over the next 6 months.....or am I hallucinateing???

 

[McG]

The rentals come this summer.  The contract is not yet negotiated on the tanks we want to buy.

 

[geo]

The tanks won't arrive for 5 years????????   I'm sure I read that we're getting them over the next 6 months.....or am I hallucinateing???

That's why we are leasing the 20 German Leo2 A6Ms + other ARV, etc

 

[McG]

20 German Leo2 including x 2 ARV