Canadian Army Commander Lieutenant-General Marquis Hainse : 'Comined Arms Lvl 5'

[SeaKingTacco]

I have the worst job in the world- on a daily basis, I have to try and explain ships to Air Force Officers and airplanes to Naval Officers.

It is to weep....

 

[daftandbarmy]

I have the worst job in the world- on a daily basis, I have to try and explain ships to Air Force Officers and airplanes to Naval Officers.

It is to weep....

Just don't add trying to explain the golden rivet to army guys. If they're from Nova Scotia, they already get it.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

SKT, do you mean that when the ship deploys on operation (and is therefore choped to CJOC), the ship's CO loses OPCOM of the HELAIRDET?  That's insane!

(And pardon my ignorance: This CJOC over everything on operation stuff came on line after I left active service).

And for those who jokingly refer to Fleet Air Arm, please note that one big advantage of such system that was lost with their disappearance, was that as those naval officers who were flyers were also expected to learn naval lore and learn the requirements for watch keeping/naval operations generally/command, they were able to achieve such command and to find themselves "embedded" (to use a modern term) in all aspects of the Navy. This means that everyone, as a result, knew more about proper use of air assets as part of naval operations, and the aviators that were flying with the FAA knew a lot more about ships. When everything went Air Force, this osmosis of knowledge was lost to both "services" and in my opinion, knowledge of one another's "service" capability has been declining ever since.

So, yes, it may not be a bad idea to reintroduce some form of Fleet Air Arm. The RCAF could retain responsibility for training, maintenance, air worthiness orders, etc., so everyone works from the same playbook (so to speak), but the personnel would be integrated into and part of the RCN full time, with the capacity to access all of the RCN various position that their trade would not restrict them from (for instance: NCM's could become Coxn's, Pilots could become ship's CO, both could fill shore and sea based operational or staff positions in the RCN, etc.).

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Lumber does not have this quite correct.

HELAIRDETS are given OPCOM to the Ship, when they embark. There are residual authorities which are retained by the RCAF (things like flight safety, airworthiness, maintenance policy). When the ship chops to CJOC, the JFACC (double-hatted as Comd 1 Cdn Air Div) exercises a command function over the HELAIRDET (which becomes known as an Air Task Force, in RCAF parlance).

Because the institutional RCAF knowledge of Naval Doctrine and the realities of life onboard an RCN ship is poor (at best), it leads to a lot of uncomfortable moments for the HELAIRDET Commander when the CAOC in Winnipeg begins to ping him/her directly to either gather information (daily quad slide  : ) or to issue direction that would impact the Ship's movement without first consulting the CO of the ship, or (a more recent tendency) attempt to place the HELAIRDET under the nearest RCAF Air Task Force and then task them on the daily ATO- despite the fact that naval helicopters are an organic asset and tasked by every other navy in the world in a completely differ the fashion.

It is a buggers mess as the RCAF tries to fit the HELAIRDET concept into its USAF centric C2 structure, to put it mildly...

Another great example of a staffer interjecting themselves in to what should be a Commanders business.  I feel sorry for you Helicopter pilots, this sort of crap boggles my mind.

 

[daftandbarmy]

SKT, do you mean that when the ship deploys on operation (and is therefore choped to CJOC), the ship's CO loses OPCOM of the HELAIRDET?  That's insane!

(And pardon my ignorance: This CJOC over everything on operation stuff came on line after I left active service).

And for those who jokingly refer to Fleet Air Arm, please note that one big advantage of such system that was lost with their disappearance, was that as those naval officers who were flyers were also expected to learn naval lore and learn the requirements for watch keeping/naval operations generally/command, they were able to achieve such command and to find themselves "embedded" (to use a modern term) in all aspects of the Navy. This means that everyone, as a result, knew more about proper use of air assets as part of naval operations, and the aviators that were flying with the FAA knew a lot more about ships. When everything went Air Force, this osmosis of knowledge was lost to both "services" and in my opinion, knowledge of one another's "service" capability has been declining ever since.

So, yes, it may not be a bad idea to reintroduce some form of Fleet Air Arm. The RCAF could retain responsibility for training, maintenance, air worthiness orders, etc., so everyone works from the same playbook (so to speak), but the personnel would be integrated into and part of the RCN full time, with the capacity to access all of the RCN various position that their trade would not restrict them from (for instance: NCM's could become Coxn's, Pilots could become ship's CO, both could fill shore and sea based operational or staff positions in the RCN, etc.).

In the UK, there was never a question about who we would prefer to lug us around on operations etc. Fly Navy!

 

[dimsum]

And for those who jokingly refer to Fleet Air Arm, please note that one big advantage of such system that was lost with their disappearance, was that as those naval officers who were flyers were also expected to learn naval lore and learn the requirements for watch keeping/naval operations generally/command, they were able to achieve such command and to find themselves "embedded" (to use a modern term) in all aspects of the Navy. This means that everyone, as a result, knew more about proper use of air assets as part of naval operations, and the aviators that were flying with the FAA knew a lot more about ships. When everything went Air Force, this osmosis of knowledge was lost to both "services" and in my opinion, knowledge of one another's "service" capability has been declining ever since.

So, yes, it may not be a bad idea to reintroduce some form of Fleet Air Arm. The RCAF could retain responsibility for training, maintenance, air worthiness orders, etc., so everyone works from the same playbook (so to speak), but the personnel would be integrated into and part of the RCN full time, with the capacity to access all of the RCN various position that their trade would not restrict them from (for instance: NCM's could become Coxn's, Pilots could become ship's CO, both could fill shore and sea based operational or staff positions in the RCN, etc.).

Now *that* sounds like a great briefing note, etc which would result in "Leading Change" and a promotion for some MH person.  :nod: 

Whether the RCAF would like the loss in budget, PYs, etc is another matter.

 

[Loachman]

It is a buggers mess as the RCAF tries to fit the HELAIRDET concept into its USAF centric C2 structure, to put it mildly...

Tac Hel suffers similarly.

 

[Infanteer]

And for those who jokingly refer to Fleet Air Arm

I wasn't joking.  1 Wing and 12 Wing should change Services.

 

[Loachman]

I vote you for God Emperor.

 

[dimsum]

I wasn't joking.  1 Wing and 12 Wing should change Services.

Just whisper that a few times to media, and just like the SH hoopla, it'll make its way to the news as "certain members of DND have suggested that..."  ;D

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I vote you for God Emperor.

I second that motion 

 

[Kirkhill]

I second that motion 

Ave! Dominus et Deus, Restitutor Orbis!  [