Canadian River Class Destroyer Megathread

[oldcpu]

I note a recent article in various navy news sources (such as MSI wins £29.7m German frigate gun contract - IN Defence ), stating that the German navy plans to procure the 'seahawk' (also known as DS30M 30mm naval gun) for four F128 frigates.

Further, I read on Naval news claims that the MSI-DS DS30M is offered by MSI in three different turret configurations, dubbed DS remote, DS A1 and DS A2, depending on the sensor and fire control. From what I can tell, the USN (and likely RCN for River Class) is acquiring the MSI-design under the designation Mk 38 Mod-4 (which has the 30mm Mk44 Bushmaster II), which I believe corresponds to the DS A2 variant. The DS A2 variant features a dedicated, off-mount Electro-Optical Director (EOD). The sensor head is decoupled from the mount structure, allowing up to 360° independent surveillance and target tracking (dependant on mount location) while feeding fire-control solutions to the mount's ballistic computer.

Nominally I have believed that the RCN would procure the Mk48 EOSS for the MSI-DS DS30M (30mm) off mount fire control, and that the Mk48 EOSS would also be integrated into the RCN River Class SPEIR as an NFOV. That can still be the case, but I do note that I am not 100% positive here, as I assume it's possible a different EOSS device could be the SPEIR NFOV, and hence potentially a different firecontrol for the RCN River class Mk38 Mod-4 30mm gun. I am curious to read if any future official information updates will make this more clear.

One interesting aspect re the German F128 (based on a Meko 200 design) for the 30-mm Seahawk (which may be the same as the RCN Mk-38 Mod-4 30mm gun), is that the Meko 200 design in some configurations will carry 3 x Vulcan Phalax (or 3 x Sea Zenith CIWS) per ship. In the case of the German F128 (also known as a Meko A-200).

Along these lines, I noted a Naval new article that stated Germany has thus far ordered quantity four F-128s and also has ordered quantity twelve 30-mm Seahawk presumably for those F-128s. That suggests the F-128 may actually have quantity 3 Seahawk per ship (consistent with the Meko 200 that has three CIWS guns per ship). I found one (nebulous) render of the F-128 that illustrates on the German F-128 two 30mm guns aft (one port, one starboard (both at the hanger) and one 30mm forward of the bridge (aft of a VLS). The sketch is low quality and based on that sketch I can't speculate as to what the German navy may use for firecontrol for their 30mm Seahawks.

For the RCN I am still speculating (where RCN River Class renditions depict only two 30mm guns aft, one port and one starboard beside the hanger). And further, as to the firecontrol, I speculate even more for the RCN that it could be one or more (or none) of the following for firecontrol:

• TBD (1 or 2) Mk-48 Mod-2 EOSS aft, located on hanger top? Quantity one on each side? [possibly same equipment as SPEIR NFOV]
• SPEIR NFOV aft (1 or 2), located on hanger top? Quantity one on each side? [possibly the same equipment as Mk-48 Mod-2 EOSS]
• NGSSR (possibly AN/SPS-73(V)18) for surface gun fire control information
• AEGIS (speculation for this use) for anti-air drone fire control information

There is a lot of speculation by myself in this. I suspect it may be some time before more known.

 

[oldcpu]

I read up a bit on this gun.

From what I read, the Mk38 Mod-4 (30mm) and the older Mod-2 and Mod-3 variants differ primarily in their weapon system, mounting lineage, and sensor/fire-control integration.

I don't believe I posted yet a link to this youtube video on the 30mm Mk38 Mod-4 gun:

I still have not read anything official to confirm this is the gun, although everything (many different news sources/defenseforums) seems to point to that as being fact.

 

[oldcpu]

One interesting aspect re the German F128 (based on a Meko 200 design) for the 30-mm Seahawk (which may be the same as the RCN Mk-38 Mod-4 30mm gun), ...

This had me curious ... what other nations might be procuring the Mk-38 Mod-4 30mm gun (or an earlier variant, such as the 25mm). My rather tentative list ( where I could have errors or omissions):

USN

• Arleigh Burke Flight IIA and III
• FF(X) frigate (exact variant TBD)
• potential (speculation) upgrade to Mk38 mod-4 from earlier Mk38 variants on Aircraft carriers and Amphibious assult ships (CVN, LHA, LPD, LPD)

US Coast Guard
- Polar Security Cutters (TBC)

Germany

• F127
• F128 (referred to as MSI Seahawk 30mm - so possibly different variant)
• F123B (referred to as MSI Seahawk 30mm)

Other nations DS30M gun family users (ie different variants before the Mk38-Mod-4) in different nations navies:
- Royal Navy (Type-26, Type-23, River-class Patrol vessel-batch-2), Oman, Malaysia, Brazil, Iraq, Thailand, Bahrain, Chile

Canada
- River Class (stated in different news sources)

 

[oldcpu]

Also of curiousity to me, is the Navies that currently operate the BAE 5-inch gun, or are planned to operate such. I attempted to make a list of the warship classes currently with this gun, or those planning to install the gun on a new warship. My list (and it could have errors and omissions):

Navies (believed) Currently Operating the BAE Systems Mk 45 5-Inch Gun​

• United States Navy: Deploys the Mk 45 Mod 2 (5-inch / 54-caliber) on earlier Arleigh Burke-class destroyers (DDG-51–DDG-80) and un-modernized cruisers, and the Mk 45 Mod 4 (5-inch / 62-caliber) on DDG-81 onward and modernized Ticonderoga-class cruisers.
• Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF): Deploys the Mk 45 Mod 4 (5-inch / 62-caliber) on Atago, Maya, Akizuki, Asahi, and Mogami-class surface combatants.
• Republic of Korea Navy (ROKN): Deploys the KMk45 Mod 4 (5-inch / 62-caliber)—produced locally under license by Hyundai WIA—on Sejong the Great-class destroyers (KDX-III), Chungmugong Yi Sun-sin-class destroyers (KDX-II), and Incheon (FFX Batch I), Daegu (FFX Batch II), and Chungnam (FFX Batch III) class frigates.
• Royal Australian Navy (RAN): Deploys the Mk 45 Mod 2 (5-inch / 54-caliber) on Anzac-class frigates and the Mk 45 Mod 4 (5-inch / 62-caliber) on Hobart-class destroyers.
• Royal Danish Navy: Deploys the Mk 45 Mod 4 (5-inch / 62-caliber) on Absalon-class flexible support frigates.
• Spanish Navy (Armada Española): Deploys the Mk 45 Mod 2 (5-inch / 54-caliber) on Álvaro de Bazán-class (F100) frigates.
• Hellenic Navy: Deploys the Mk 45 Mod 2 (5-inch / 54-caliber) on Hydra-class (MEKO 200 HN) frigates.
• Republic of China (Taiwan) Navy: Deploys the Mk 45 Mod 2 (5-inch / 54-caliber) on Kee Lung-class destroyers.
• Turkish Navy: Deploys the Mk 45 Mod 1 and Mod 2 (5-inch / 54-caliber) on Yavuz-class (MEKO 200 TN I) and Barbaros-class (MEKO 200 TN II) frigates.
• Royal Thai Navy: Deploys the Mk 45 Mod 2 (5-inch / 54-caliber) on Naresuan-class frigates (retrofitted with Mod 4 digital control systems).
• Royal New Zealand Navy: Deploys the Mk 45 Mod 2 (5-inch / 54-caliber) on Anzac-class frigates.

2. Navies (believed) Planning to Integrate the BAE Systems Mk 45 Mod 4 on Future Combatants​

• Royal Canadian Navy: Integrating the Mk 45 Mod 4 (5-inch / 62-caliber) as the main deck gun across all 15 planned River-class destroyers.
• United Kingdom (Royal Navy): Integrating the Mk 45 Mod 4A (5-inch / 62-caliber)—fitted with the automated Maritime Indirect Fires System (MIFS)—across all eight Type 26 City-class Global Combat Ships.
• Royal Australian Navy (RAN): Integrating the Mk 45 Mod 4A (5-inch / 62-caliber) on six upcoming Hunter-class frigates.
• Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF): Integrating the Mk 45 Mod 4 (5-inch / 62-caliber) on the New FFM frigates and the Aegis System Equipped Vessels (ASEV).
• Republic of Korea Navy (ROKN): Integrating the KMk45 Mod 4 (5-inch / 62-caliber) on Jeongjo the Great-class destroyers (KDX-III Batch II) and upcoming KDDX next-generation destroyers.
• Royal Norwegian Navy (Planned): Expected to receive the Mk 45 Mod 4A (5-inch / 62-caliber) as part of its selection of the British Type 26 design for its future frigate fleet (TBC).

I confess, my having not looked at this before, I was surprised as to how common this 5-inch gun is among the navies of the world. Again thou, I could have errors and/or omissions in the above list.

 

[oldcpu]

I ma also curious about the proposed sensors for the River Class Destroyer, and what other countries my procure the same sensors.

I note the Ultra Sonar Type 2150 (S2150) is planned for the River class — this being a digital, medium-frequency active and passive bow mounted or hull-mounted sonar system developed by Ultra Electronics—is primarily deployed or planned across Royal Navy warship programs and key international Type 26 frigate derivates:

United Kingdom (Royal Navy)

• Type 23 Frigates (Iron Duke-class): Retrofit planned across the surface fleet.
• Type 26 Frigates (City-class): Procured as the organic bow-mounted sonar suite for all eight planned anti-submarine warfare (ASW) frigates.

Canada (Royal Canadian Navy)

• River-class Destroyers (Type 26 variant / CSC): Procured for Batch 1 vessels (and planned across the 15-ship program) to form the hull-mounted component of the ship's Integrated Underwater Warfare System.

Australia (Royal Australian Navy)

• Hunter-class Frigates (Type 26 variant): Selected by Ultra Maritime Australia to supply the bow-mounted sonar suite for the batch of six planned ASW-optimized frigates.

Norway (Royal Norwegian Navy / Sjøforsvaret)

• Future ASW Frigates (Type 26 variant / TBC): Selected the UK Type 26 baseline for its five-ship frigate acquisition, making the Ultra S2150 the anticipated bow sonar pending final contract layout.

I could not find any other classes of warships where this sonar is being considered for.

 

[oldcpu]

I ma also curious about the proposed sensors for the River Class Destroyer, and what other countries my procure the same sensors.

Reference the towed array sonar, my understanding is that, at present, the RCN is procuring the Thales Sonar 2087/S2087—a CAPTAS-family low-frequency active/passive towed-array sonar—for the River Class.

Other warships in the world that operate or may procure this sonar or closely related low-frequency active/passive towed systems are the RCN for its current Halifax class, the RN for the Type 23 and Type 26 (City class), the RAN for the Type 26 (Hunter class), and, potentially (TBC) the Norwegian Navy for its Type 26

I believe, based on some internet articles, that other navies may procure closely related CAPTAS-family variants, including Italy for its CAPTAS-4-equipped FREMMs and Spain for the CAPTAS-4 Compact on its F110 class, while Germany and the Netherlands/Belgium are pursuing different towed-sonar solutions.

 

[oldcpu]

One thing I am puzzling over with the River Class destroyer is how the fire control works to calculate the ballistics for the two guns (BAE Mk45 5-inch gun and also for the Mk38-Mod-4 30mm gun).

Tracking: My assumption is for surface targets, bearing and range of the target (at the needed tracking frequency for firecontrol) can be obtained from
(1) the NGSSR (possibly the AN/SPS-73) and possibly from SPEIR-NFOV/Mk20-EOSS (for BAE-Mk45-5-inch-gun) and/or
(2) possibly from SPEIR-NFOV/Mk48-EOSS (for MSI Mk38-Mod-4 30mm), where I believe SPEIR-NFOV, Mk20-EOSS and Mk48-EOSS have laser range finders.

But where are the ballistics conducted for gun pointing for surface targets, so to then pass to the 5-inch gun and 30mm gun mounts?

The same puzzlement exists for me for air targets, where in addition to EOSS/laser rangefinder (for close in targets) instead of NGSSR (that I typed above), substitute SPY-7/AEGIS for determining more distant target air range and bearing (providing rapid targeting updates).

BAE Mk45 5-inch ballistics: I speculate that one possibility for ballistics calculation for the BAE Mk45 5-inch gun could be that the RCN is procuring the Mk160 Gun control console (as part of Mk34 Gun Weapon System (GWS)) which will house the ballistic calculations.

MSI Mk38-Mod-4 30mm gun ballistics: While the RCN may be procuring the Mk134 operator console box, as part of the Mk38 Mod-4 30mm gun, I am not convinced that is where the ballistic calculations are conducted (but I could be wrong). I did read on an MSI advertisement page that the Mk38-Mod-4 30mm gun comes with a Ballistic Computer and Predictor (BCP), but it is not clear to me where that device is located, as to whether it is incorporated in the Mk88 Mod 4 Gun Mount structure or if it is separately mounted elsewhere on the ship. Again, I note that I also assume that the BCP is not part of the Mk134 weapon control console for the Mk38-Mod-4 30mm, but I am not certain.

 

[NavyShooter]

I am acquainted with how the Bofors 57mm is integrated into the Fire Control System on a Halifax Class through CMS330, and I suspect that it would be similarly done on a ship with AEGIS, but I do not know, and can only speculate.

The key factor in an accurate gun engagement is not just the interface to the Combat Management System though - it's also the alignment of the gun/director/navigation system.

Consider the parallax induced by trying to point a gun situated on the forecastle of the ship, using a gyro angle provided by a RLGN 50 feet astern and down below the waterline, being pointed by a fire control system that's located up in the mast (or wherever else high up on the ship.)

That's a difficult bit of magic math that the computers have to factor into the ballistic calculations.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I am acquainted with how the Bofors 57mm is integrated into the Fire Control System on a Halifax Class through CMS330, and I suspect that it would be similarly done on a ship with AEGIS, but I do not know, and can only speculate.

The key factor in an accurate gun engagement is not just the interface to the Combat Management System though - it's also the alignment of the gun/director/navigation system.

Consider the parallax induced by trying to point a gun situated on the forecastle of the ship, using a gyro angle provided by a RLGN 50 feet astern and down below the waterline, being pointed by a fire control system that's located up in the mast (or wherever else high up on the ship.)

That's a difficult bit of magic math that the computers have to factor into the ballistic calculations.

On a perpetually moving platform that also bends and twists

That's why I like 16in. Just get it close enough, the explosion will cover the fine details lol