Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[Colin Parkinson]

Canada has designed some excellent postwar ships, the DDE's , the 280's, the Halifax's and the Kingston's. None of these ships were born out of ether, they all took elements from other designs around the world at the time of their build. What we are doing with the CSC is actually building closer to a current design than before. However ever modification and use of different equipment causes a ripple of new design challenges. If cooling pipes or power couplings are on different ends, that requires rerouting piping and cabling, that may for design changes in the adjacent compartments. Also you try to incorporate lessons learned fro others working on the same design.

 

[Blackadder1916]

We continually use this as support for our shipbuilding and never in the history of Canadian ship building has another country looked at our finished Naval product and bought the design.

LAVs I do believe have been copied and used by a few countries.

LAV III - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A reminder that "LAVs" are not an original Canadian item. Starting with AVGPs (6 wheelers) in the 70s, it was a MOWAG (Swiss company) designed vehicle. Even the upgrades to 8 wheel variants (Bisons, LAVIII) were based on the MOWAG Piranha platform. And in the ensuing years all those companies designing and building these vehicles have been bought up and are now divisions of General Dynamics.

 

[Underway]

Back when the Halifax ships were built we had a ship building strategy. It failed.

The Arleigh Burke-class Destroyer is just as old as our Halifax class ships. They are still going strong, mods have been done and they are building new ones. Part of a ship building strategy is to build a ship that you can modify and build, then use it to build the next class off, the Halifax class was built with lots of spare room to modify and add in the future. Yet here we are again 30 years later modifying a perfectly fine ship that we do not have any experience with so we can "Canadianize" it. It has nothing to share with the Halifax class ships we currently owned, designed and built. In my opinion we should build a light frigate such as the Halifax class and we should build a heavy Frigate/ Destroyer such as the Type 26/ Arleigh burke. Two classes of ships that we can run side by side that compliment each other.

Arleight Burke Flight III is a completely different ship than I and II flights. Flight I doesn't even have a flight deck, is 5000 tons lighter (give or take) and smaller by some meters in all dimensions. That's like saying a Toyota Carola from 1995 is the same car as one that came off the line yesterday.
The US has always done evolutionary design in their military procurement instead of revolutionary design. They can afford to do it. Most other nations cannot.

As far as NSPS it's succeeding fairly well. Its first main goal has been achieved. Rebuilding Canada's shipyards, improving Canada's industrial capacity, provide jobs to Canadians, develop Canadian technologies. The second goal is ongoing. Using those shipyards to rebuild the fleets. You can argue whether it's worth the cost or the timeframes involved are relevant but never forget the main goal has already been achieved.

As for fleet mix, we will be doing exactly like you said. The Halifax class will be operating with CSC for at least 10 years. And as far as what the fleet will look like after CSC is done building perhaps that light frigate may be in that build, or maybe all navies will irrelevant due to hypersonic space based missiles and insane submarine threats. It will be 2045 by then.

 

[childs56]

Arleight Burke Flight III is a completely different ship than I and II flights. Flight I doesn't even have a flight deck, is 5000 tons lighter (give or take) and smaller by some meters in all dimensions. That's like saying a Toyota Carola from 1995 is the same car as one that came off the line yesterday.
The US has always done evolutionary design in their military procurement instead of revolutionary design. They can afford to do it. Most other nations cannot.

The Halifax class was suppose to be the beginning of a class of ship that would be modified and built upon for the future. As soon as we have ships sailing we forget their replacement. We should be building a class of ship that has future potential also with room for expansion. But we only look to the next day and not the next year.

As far as NSPS it's succeeding fairly well. Its first main goal has been achieved. Rebuilding Canada's shipyards, improving Canada's industrial capacity, provide jobs to Canadians, develop Canadian technologies. The second goal is ongoing. Using those shipyards to rebuild the fleets. You can argue whether it's worth the cost or the timeframes involved are relevant but never forget the main goal has already been achieved.

Our ship yards did not need billions of government dollars to be rebuilt. They need to find a way to be competitive on the world scale. That involves getting sales for their offerings.
As for the main goal. The main goal is for Canada to get the best warship for the best price. Any other spin offs are secondary to that goal. I do not mind putting money into industry, but usually industry has a benefit that they can sustain themselves afterwards. This will not be the case, we stepped into the game to late. The only customer for their product is Canada. If they could show a further benefit beyond the initial purchase it would be pretty awesome. But like the majority of Industries out East they will take the money and ask for more.
The West Coast was hurting, but that's part the workers fault, part yard size and part management. The long term vision has to be more then just supplying us war ships. Otherwise we need to look at if the costs are worth the results. To many Canadians it is not.

My comment earlier on about building ship modules in Fort Mac sounds absurd, but it most definitely is doable. Heck they build whole plants in modules and ship them via truck, barge and ship. We have lots of experienced welders and mod yards that could use the work.

As for fleet mix, we will be doing exactly like you said. The Halifax class will be operating with CSC for at least 10 years. And as far as what the fleet will look like after CSC is done building perhaps that light frigate may be in that build, or maybe all navies will irrelevant due to hypersonic space based missiles and insane submarine threats. It will be 2045 by then.

 

[Underway]

The Halifax class was suppose to be the beginning of a class of ship that would be modified and built upon for the future. As soon as we have ships sailing we forget their replacement. We should be building a class of ship that has future potential also with room for expansion. But we only look to the next day and not the next year.

Again, we're doing this. What do you think the CSC is? It's built with room for future improvement. The NSPS is literally trying to fix the errors of the past. You're complaining about the past while ignoring what's actually happening.

Our ship yards did not need billions of government dollars to be rebuilt. They need to find a way to be competitive on the world scale. That involves getting sales for their offerings.
As for the main goal. The main goal is for Canada to get the best warship for the best price. Any other spin offs are secondary to that goal. I do not mind putting money into industry, but usually industry has a benefit that they can sustain themselves afterwards. This will not be the case, we stepped into the game to late. The only customer for their product is Canada. If they could show a further benefit beyond the initial purchase it would be pretty awesome.

No. Rebuilding an atrophied Canadian industry is the main goal of NSPS. They literally did need a large contract to get going. Guaranteed money so they could expand and hire.

The plan has never ever been the best ship for the best price. If that was the case, we would have bought foreign, damn the IP or Canadian jobs.

As for sustaining themselves afterward, no idea. Getting ships for the RCN and Coast Guard are byproducts. As far as internationally competitive, shipbuilding is a strategic industry, like Colt Canada and our ammunition manufacturing. It's irrelevant if all the shipyards get foreign contracts. They likely won't outside of a few things. Other countries are far more aggressive in their yard subsidization than we are (France, Korea, US etc...), so ships will likely be built in those places instead. But that's the dream. We'll see if there is a recapitalization in international fleets after COVID. Right now they are scrapping perfectly good new ships because of the economics of COVID. There might be a rebound.

But like the majority of Industries out East they will take the money and ask for more.

Ah, now I understand your posts so much better.

 

[Good2Golf]

My comment earlier on about building ship modules in Fort Mac sounds absurd, but it most definitely is doable. Heck they build whole plants in modules and ship them via truck, barge and ship. We have lots of experienced welders and mod yards that could use the work.

...or the welders and fabricators could, you know, travel to the shipyards and work there so we didn’t have to ship tens of thousands of tons of truck-transportable micro modules from pretty much the geographically furthest point in Canada to get to an oceanic haulage route.

What happened to the part where you (incorrectly) said the main aim was to provide the best capability for the lowest price? Seems like shipping all the metal to Fort McMurray, then have non-marine welders bang out a few thousand micro locks of ship, then ship the thousands of micro modules thousands of kilometers to where they’ll be assembled is a great way to inefficiently spend the taxpayers’ money.

 

[childs56]

...or the welders and fabricators could, you know, travel to the shipyards and work there so we didn’t have to ship tens of thousands of tons of truck-transportable micro modules from pretty much the geographically furthest point in Canada to get to an oceanic haulage route.

Alberta isn't that geographically far from a coast. They shipped huge modules and gigantic Reactors to Fort McMurtry from the West Coast. Its funny when you put your mind to something how it can happen.

What happened to the part where you (incorrectly) said the main aim was to provide the best capability for the lowest price? Seems like shipping all the metal to Fort McMurray, then have non-marine welders bang out a few thousand micro locks of ship, then ship the thousands of micro modules thousands of kilometers to where they’ll be assembled is a great way to inefficiently spend the taxpayers’ money.

I know more then a few welders who have travelled to both coasts for work. They are not impressed by the work asked of and conducted by. But of course its a learning curve.

 

[childs56]

Again, we're doing this. What do you think the CSC is? It's built with room for future improvement. The NSPS is literally trying to fix the errors of the past. You're complaining about the past while ignoring what's actually happening.

Again we did that with the Halifax class and look where that ended up. What's actually happening is we are spending money on a process to prop up a poorly run company that will keep their hands out asking for more.

No. Rebuilding an atrophied Canadian industry is the main goal of NSPS. They literally did need a large contract to get going. Guaranteed money so they could expand and hire.

The plan has never ever been the best ship for the best price. If that was the case, we would have bought foreign, damn the IP or Canadian jobs.

Actually that is always the goal. Be fiscally responsible for the best equipment.

As for sustaining themselves afterward, no idea. Getting ships for the RCN and Coast Guard are byproducts. As far as internationally competitive, shipbuilding is a strategic industry, like Colt Canada and our ammunition manufacturing. It's irrelevant if all the shipyards get foreign contracts. They likely won't outside of a few things. Other countries are far more aggressive in their yard subsidization than we are (France, Korea, US etc...), so ships will likely be built in those places instead. But that's the dream. We'll see if there is a recapitalization in international fleets after COVID. Right now they are scrapping perfectly good new ships because of the economics of COVID. There might be a rebound.



Ah, now I understand your posts so much better.

I understand that Eastern Canada gets gobs of money to prop op failing industry's that rely on government money to stay running,. In doing so we get screwed over for getting the best deal. I am all for government funding to get going, when the program is double close to triple the cost of other similar programs one has to wonder, besides the assembly of the ship, what specialties services are we really providing.

If we take a company like Kelowna Flight Craft, they built a reputation of being good at aircraft electronics. They have expanded to provide much larger levels of service. They used government funding to get there. But they do not constantly have their hand out to stay open. Where a few industries out East constantly have their hands out for cash. It usually ends up in the CEOs pocket and not back into the program to create work.
This project is going to cost billions more then they are saying. Because once Irving Ship Yards spend all the money up front they will require more to keep going. The same crap they pulled with the Halifax Class.
It will be interesting to see. I hope we get a well built ship.

 

[dapaterson]

Because once Irving Ship Yards spend all the money up front they will require more to keep going. The same crap they pulled with the Halifax Class.
It will be interesting to see. I hope we get a well built ship.

Well, at least you understand how the scoping exercise will end... with a ship, singular.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The main problem with the NSPS is it was started 20 years to late, The CSC based on the Type 26 will bring significantly more capability to the RCN, not to mention extra tonnage and deck space for future systems, plus we will be working with the UK and Australia and perhaps others to tweak the design and future improvements.
As for the west coast shipyards, so far as I am aware they are the only one to get a foreign naval contract out of all the other shipyards. The West Coast has been busy with Cruise ship upgrades and other commercial work. The smaller yards have been expanding as well. In fact the shipyards also worked on specialised welding of components for the mini-hydro project that have been popular out here, among other non ships stuff.

 

[Good2Golf]

If we take a company like Kelowna Flight Craft, they built a reputation of being good at aircraft electronics. They have expanded to provide much larger levels of service. They used government funding to get there. But they do not constantly have their hand out to stay open.

ummmm....KF literally gets tens of millions of dollars a year directly from the federal government on a repeating, multi-year contract. They don’t need to have a hand open for cash, just their bank account open to deposit the cash!

 

[Fabius]

I know I keep saying this but I am highly sceptical that NSPS will result in ongoing builds and cease the boom bust approach. There are three things that I think speak to an alarming mindset that will potentially guarantee overall failure even if CSC is a a resounding success as a class.

1. Ongoing discussion of CS needing to be capable of future growth as a platform. I understand this to be mid life refits. If NSPS is to work there needs to be design and build post hull #15.

2. The decision to not take up Davie on the offer of a 2nd Astrix. To me an indicator of a “we already have one, why would we build another”mindset. Not in line with the purported objective of NSPS and yes I get that Davie was not party to the initial plan.

3. Lack of strategic planning for the replacement of the sub fleet. Ack that this will be done offshore likely and that there is a plan to keep them current out to the 2030s. That’s not far away though and it’s again indicating a mindset that doesn’t match NSPS in my opinion.

Based on these items I am not seeing actions that match the words used to describe the objective of NSPS.

 

[Good2Golf]

Alberta isn't that geographically far from a coast. They shipped huge modules and gigantic Reactors to Fort McMurtry from the West Coast. Its funny when you put your mind to something how it can happen.

Yeah, it is...

1,200km to up to 1,800km from a major coast...one would be hard-pressed to find a place in Canada geographically further from a cost as you suggest where ship modules should be built.

Maps don’t lie...

 

[dapaterson]

The F35 has proven the business model of widely dispersed manufacturing for overpriced pieces of military equipment.

 

[MilEME09]

Here's another angle, how much of the cost increases are because of the cost of raw materials? Our steel industry is not what it used to be for example. I will go out on a limb and say most of the steel for the CSCs will come from outside the country.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

A little humour from when the Halifax's were new

 

[childs56]

Yeah, it is...

1,200km to up to 1,800km from a major coast...one would be hard-pressed to find a place in Canada geographically further from a cost as you suggest where ship modules should be built.

Maps don’t lie...

Suncor Voyageur Heavy Transport and Heavy Lift Project | Western

Suncor Energy recovers bitumen ore from oil sands and upgrades it to refinery ready feedstock and diesel fuel near Fort McMurray, Alberta. Suncor Energy took part in the ‘Voyageur‘ upgrade, part of a planned $20.6 billion oil sands expansion, with an expected additional 100,000 barrels of oil...

www.westernmechanical.net

Kearl Oil Sands Module Transport - Foss Maritime Company, LLC

Foss Maritime successfully delivered 155 Korean-built modules in support of the Kearl Oil Sands project near Fort McMurray, Alberta – one of Canada’s largest open-pit mining operations.

www.foss.com

 

[Good2Golf]

And the incremental cost for that transport as opposed to manufacturing in location would make the project cheaper?

Again, what happened to your assertion that the aim is to build at the lowest price?

 

[childs56]

And the incremental cost for that transport as opposed to manufacturing in location would make the project cheaper?

Again, what happened to your assertion that the aim is to build at the lowest price?

You would be surprised what the cost could be. Similar to its cheaper to get product built overseas even though it has to be shipped across the ocean.
What I am getting at is the program can be better served to look at all options of building, all suppliers. Irving was hoping to get a lot of welders who gained experience in the Oil/gas fields of Western Canada back. Maybe get a return of a East coast work force. That has sort of happened. They are plagued with work force issues. Tells me a few things about working for them. I have a few friends who do.
The other issue is the lack of any progressive planning until the final hour by the builder who is our premier builder of warships. They did little to no planning for the new ships until given billions of dollars to do so. I would have thought they would have a design team in constant design phase. Not much was offered.
The Government did the same thing. They are in panic mode now because the Halifax ships are supposedly at the end of their life. But they will sail for another 10 plus years. Because they have to. The delay the Liberals have caused along with Irving ship yards could be detrimental to our forward projection of Sea power. I guess we can send a APOS to patrol the Med, or the Gulf as part of our NATO commitment.

It will be interesting to see the new industry spin offs and the actual dollars spent in Canada for this project. Especially with the contracts signed with BAE Canada and LM Canada.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Would it not be better if the government handled shipyard upgrades in a separate transaction from the ships themselves? Perhaps using BDC or Industry Canada, provide low interest loans for that specific process? Then when DND is ordering ships, they in fact are just paying for the ships, and not the upgrade to the shipyards too? Such a process should work better for DND and taxpayers. The only winners in the current procurement model appears to be the shipyard owners who get their yards upgraded for free by DND (with no associated debt or equity dilution) just so they can actually build what they're bidding on.