Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[MarkOttawa]

Could RN Type 26 delays do in as candidate for RCN CSC?

Defence Minister Tight-Lipped On New Frigates' Time-Frame

A defence minister has refused to say when the next generation of Royal Navy warships will be built, amid warnings that axing them would be an "unforgivable betrayal".

Tory frontbencher Harriet Baldwin was unmoved by calls from SNP and Labour MPs to confirm a time-frame around cutting steel on Britain's eight new Type 26 frigates, insisting it would be "inappropriate" to give key dates as negotiations continue.

The ships are due to be built on the Clyde in Scotland, with SNP defence spokesman Brendan O'Hara predicting construction of the ships would not start until summer 2017 or possibly later...
http://forces.tv/03674409

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

With the falling British Pound, I'm betting they want it 'in mix' to drive all the competitors to ensure their pencils are as sharp as possible....

 

[Kirkhill]

With as much Euro kit as there is likely to be aboard them, possibly even the steel,  and with labour (sweat equity) being a national thing, it may be that Canada could build them for less than the Brits because of that weak pound.

While I prefer the Danes or the Dutch my money with this bunch is on the Fremms.

 

[jollyjacktar]

FREMM is sweet.

 

[Kirkhill]

FREMMs and F35s?

Straddling the Atlantic?

 

[MarkOttawa]

And depending on how many CSCs (whatever design) can be afforded, perhaps a few smaller frigates or OPVs--e.g.?

France Unveils New FTI Frigate Designed for the French Navy and Export

French defense minister Jean-Yves Le Drian unveiled the design for a new intermediate frigate Tuesday at the Euronaval trade show, and told reporters a budget of €3.8 billion ($4.2 billion) has been set to build five of the ships for the French Navy.

The Frégate de Taille Intermédiaire (FTI) is intended as a replacement for the fleet’s Lafayette-class frigates beginning in 2023. The government is also anxious that the design can be adapted for the international export market.

The ship’s design had been a well-kept secret until the unveiling of the model at noon in front of the defense ministry stand. The 4,200-ton frigate is a fresh design, different from the preceding Fremm multimission frigates, and features an unusual “inverted bow” intended to improve seakeeping in high sea states...

The multimission FTI frigate will carry a 125-strong crew – including a 15-person aviation detachment and with accommodation for another 50 -- displace 4,250 tons and come with a price tag 20-30 percent less than the 6,000-ton Fremm, which has entered service with the French Navy with more units under construction by DCNS. The ship has an overall length of 122.25 m and a beam of 17.7 m.

DCNS separately announced the export version of the intermediate frigate, dubbed Belh@rra...
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/france-unveils-new-fti-frigate-ship-is-designed-for-the-french-navy-and-for-export

Image:

http://en.dcnsgroup.com/news/dcns-devoile-belhrra-la-fregate-numerique-de-nouvelle-generation/

Mark
Ottawa



..

 

[Kirkhill]

Is not allowed.

Is not in water....

 

[MarkOttawa]

Chris Pook: Was suggesting well down the road--FTI or something else around that size--when money running out stifles planned CSC numbers.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Kirkhill]

Seen Mark:

Forgot the smiley.

I am of two minds on the acquisition strategy of only buying something that is already floating.

Plus:  It is already floating and it works and it is ready to build.

Minus:  This is Canada.  When it is built it is questionable if it will work, or if it will float.  The one thing for sure is that given our delivery schedule it will be a forty year old design when the last one hits the water.

Christ! Someone must have upped my dosage of cynical pills recently.

 

[Lumber]

Seen Mark:

Forgot the smiley.

I am of two minds on the acquisition strategy of only buying something that is already floating.

Plus:  It is already floating and it works and it is ready to build.

Minus:  This is Canada.  When it is built it is questionable if it will work, or if it will float.  The one thing for sure is that given our delivery schedule it will be a forty year old design when the last one hits the water.

Christ! Someone must have upped my dosage of cynical pills recently.

When I first saw MarkOttawa's post, I thought, "Wait... that can't be right. They are replacing the Lafayette's? They just build the damn things!"

So I checked.

Lafayette class: Commissioned in 1996, being replaced in 2023.
Halifax class: Commissioned in 1992, being replaced in... 2030?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Hull design is not going to change remarkable over the build life of the ships. The propulsion, weapon and sensor systems will change considerably though. Ensuring the design can be easily retrofitted (cable runs, hard points, ammunition storage and lifts) is important. Some thought to be able to replace significant portions of the power plants and drive system would be nice, but worse comes to worse, cut the ship in half and replace them.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

So I checked.

Lafayette class: Commissioned in 1996, being replaced in 2023.
Halifax class: Commissioned in 1992, being replaced in... 2030?

Good lord, Lumber! Are you telling me you just realized that for every class of warship Canada commissioned since WWII, our allies have gone through commissioning two or more different class of similar warship?

Look just at the Brits:

While we had the Saint-Laurent's (all categories) in commission, they went through three different batches of Leander's, the type 21, type 22 frigates, and began commissioning the type 23 frigates two years before we commissioned the first Halifax. With the last type 23 commissioning in 2002, why do you think that everyone in the U.K. is clamouring that they are way behind the 8-ball with the type 26's!

While we had the IROs in commission, they went through the type 82, type 42 batch 1, 2 and 3 and type 45 destroyers, not to mention that the batch 2 County class destroyers were only 2 to 6 years old when the IRO's commissioned in 1972.

The Americans and the Germans are even faster at switching classes and batches.

As they say in police work: "Move along! Nothing to see here!"

 

[Lumber]

Good lord, Lumber! Are you telling me you just realized that for every class of warship Canada commissioned since WWII, our allies have gone through commissioning two or more different class of similar warship?

Good Sir, I am still relatively junior and thus relatively naïve. I shall enjoy my ignorance whilst it is still bliss.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

That's the attitude! A positive and optimistic outlook, even based in ignorance, will see you through any troubles!  ;D 

 

[Kirkhill]

Corngradulations to both of you, Lumber and OGBD.

Cynicism needs a counter.

 

[MilEME09]

Is not allowed.

Is not in water....

Tell that to the Type 21

 

[Kirkhill]

Tell that to the Type 21  26

FTFY but yep.  Rules seem to be really funny things these days.

 

[jmt18325]

I wouldn't doubt the Type 26 being a paper bid, as much as it's a paper ship.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Forget the type 26. It'll never fly in Canada because BAE was clear when they tried to pawn them on the Conservatives: They will not allow them to be built outside of the UK. That rules them out for Canada.

As for the FTI of DCNS: They already have contracts for five of them by the French Navy, who is paying all the development costs associated with the new design. First delivery is 2023 - so it could be in the mix if they are wiling to build them outside of France, something which the french arms makers have been known to accept to consider in the past. But it doesn't mean that it would necessarily be in the mix, as they are also already proposing their FREMMs to Canada, and - at least for the Command/ADD version, the FREMM is more appropriate than the FTI (FTI has more restrictions on amount of missiles carried and radar suite that can be put topside (i.e. it relies on an upcoming, but yet unproven new radar suite).

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Forget the type 26. It'll never fly in Canada because BAE was clear when they tried to pawn them on the Conservatives: They will not allow them to be built outside of the UK. That rules them out for Canada.

As for the FTI of DCNS: They already have contracts for five of them by the French Navy, who is paying all the development costs associated with the new design. First delivery is 2023 - so it could be in the mix if they are wiling to build them outside of France, something which the french arms makers have been known to accept to consider in the past. But it doesn't mean that it would necessarily be in the mix, as they are also already proposing their FREMMs to Canada, and - at least for the Command/ADD version, the FREMM is more appropriate than the FTI (FTI has more restrictions on amount of missiles carried and radar suite that can be put topside (i.e. it relies on an upcoming, but yet unproven new radar suite).

The FTI is a much smaller vessel than FREMM is it not? 

Question for those in know:  Are there preferences in RCN between the French and Italian versions of FREMM?  My recollection is that both Italian and French shipyards are bidding.