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Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

I was looking at the difference between light carriers, escort carriers, LPH, and LPD's last night ducks for cover
What ever the difference is , someone will announce that we don't need them.
Whether or not we actually do need them is actually fairly immaterial to debate..
This is afterall Canada and rarely does reality intrude on these debates.
 
We should have more capability, but we can't afford or man them at this point. Had we gotten the two Mistral's as the 280's self-divested, I think you would have seen a change in attitude about having such capability. Currently our only real amphibious capability, lays with the light landing craft on the AOP's and the future JSS will have the abilty to transfer cargo ashore with a small mobile dock.
 
Currently our only real amphibious capability, lays with the light landing craft on the AOP's and the future JSS will have the abilty to transfer cargo ashore with a small mobile dock.
The LCVPs on the AOPVs are really only designed for use at anchor in sheltered waters, so I wouldn't call that an "amphibious capability".
 
We should have more capability, but we can't afford or man them at this point. Had we gotten the two Mistral's as the 280's self-divested, I think you would have seen a change in attitude about having such capability. Currently our only real amphibious capability, lays with the light landing craft on the AOP's and the future JSS will have the abilty to transfer cargo ashore with a small mobile dock.
A pair of Albatrosses around the neck of the RCN wouldn't have been an especially welcome development at the time, there was good reason for letting that purchase go.
 
The LCVPs on the AOPVs are really only designed for use at anchor in sheltered waters, so I wouldn't call that an "amphibious capability".
It's still a amphibious capability, just not a robust one, but will actually lets you put ATV's ashore which can be significant benefit. They work with the mission set given to the AOP's and are a significant leap up over anything we have had in the last 30+ years
 
A pair of Albatrosses around the neck of the RCN wouldn't have been an especially welcome development at the time, there was good reason for letting that purchase go.
As I understand it the only reason we did not get them was that an election was called. For people focused on ASW I can see why they did not want them, but I personally believe they would have been a great asset for Canada and allow us to help our allies. Along with forcing the three arms to work together.
 
Particularly when your short helicopters and you still are not certified to have one onboard.
And taking one for a SovPat in the arctic would be a waste of the resources you do have...

Most missions an AOPV will do in the arctic will not really benefit from having an Air Det. The Air Dets are likely better used on the CPFs that are out helping make the Russians and Chinese re-think their plans.
 
And taking one for a SovPat in the arctic would be a waste of the resources you do have...

Most missions an AOPV will do in the arctic will not really benefit from having an Air Det. The Air Dets are likely better used on the CPFs that are out helping make the Russians and Chinese re-think their plans.
Agreed that a Cyclone would be a waste of resources on an AOPS SovPat, but a smaller helicopter for ice recce, liason/transport, SAR and medivac purposes in a part of the world where help is typically VERY far away I'd think would be extremely useful.

Of course that's another capability that we don't have anyway...but for a nation of our size our air transport capabilities are woefully inadequate.
 
Agreed that a Cyclone would be a waste of resources on an AOPS SovPat, but a smaller helicopter for ice recce, liason/transport, SAR and medivac purposes in a part of the world where help is typically VERY far away I'd think would be extremely useful.

Of course that's another capability that we don't have anyway...but for a nation of our size our air transport capabilities are woefully inadequate.
Most ice recce is done via satellite these days, based on my conversations with the Ice Service Specialists(ISS) that sail in CCG and RCN ships, as well as their bosses at Canadian Ice Services(CIS). As for medivac, where is an AOPV going to take someone that a Twin Otter isn't better suited to take people? The sick bay onboard is well equipped, but it's still likely better to get a bush plane in, and fly someone to a hospital in Iqaluit or Inuvik.

The RCN isn't in the habit of being a ferry service, so liaison/transport isn't really an AOPV tasking outside of an emergency.
 
Still would be useful for SAR. As for medivac, I have yet to see a Twin Otter land on an AOPV or an AOPV drive itself ashore to the nearest landing strip. I think the suggestion was that the helicopter would be the link between the two location.

Actually, liaison/transport of the various Ranger patrols is a tasking of the AOPS. There is no reason why such work should be limited to being done by boats when you have a ship that could carry a useful helicopter (without being an ASW helicopter).

Finally, Ice is not the only type of "recce" that a military asset in the Arctic might want to carry out, and a helicopter could be damn useful to go and see what ship XYZ is really doing up there without fighting the ice that's between us, or to go and check on a scientific camp somewhere, or to go and look for the progress of the groups that set out every year to reach the North Pole by "land", etc. etc.

As you say yourself "isn't really an AOPV tasking outside an emergency." Well, emergencies up there can happen faster than you can shake a stick at them, and if they happen, you don't exactly have the time to go and get a helicopter that might have been mightily handy to have.
 
Agreed that a Cyclone would be a waste of resources on an AOPS SovPat, but a smaller helicopter for ice recce, liason/transport, SAR and medivac purposes in a part of the world where help is typically VERY far away I'd think would be extremely useful.

Why would you want a smaller helicopter with less range and endurance operating in the North?
 
Still would be useful for SAR. As for medivac, I have yet to see a Twin Otter land on an AOPV or an AOPV drive itself ashore to the nearest landing strip. I think the suggestion was that the helicopter would be the link between the two location.
Rather than fly them to a boat then sail the patient at 17kt to the nearest facility, you could instead fly a Twin Otter to the same place, and fly the patient to a hospital at significantly faster speeds than 17tk.

Actually, liaison/transport of the various Ranger patrols is a tasking of the AOPS. There is no reason why such work should be limited to being done by boats when you have a ship that could carry a useful helicopter (without being an ASW helicopter).
There is actually a great reason to limit it to boats most of the time, we have a lot more of them than we do helicopters and trained air crews. To add an Air Det you need to take away accommodations for other dets, which means less Rangers. The AOPVs can only realistically house about 100 people for more than a few days, meaning you either take an Air Det of 20+, or you take a larger group of Rangers and use boats. Both have advantages, and both have drawbacks.
Finally, Ice is not the only type of "recce" that a military asset in the Arctic might want to carry out, and a helicopter could be damn useful to go and see what ship XYZ is really doing up there without fighting the ice that's between us, or to go and check on a scientific camp somewhere, or to go and look for the progress of the groups that set out every year to reach the North Pole by "land", etc. etc.
A UAS is likely a much better use of space and fuel for those sorts of tasks.

As you say yourself "isn't really an AOPV tasking outside an emergency." Well, emergencies up there can happen faster than you can shake a stick at them, and if they happen, you don't exactly have the time to go and get a helicopter that might have been mightily handy to have.
Emergencies up there happen as fast as they do down south, and we have agencies specifically tasked with dealing with emergencies up there and down here.

Would a helo be handy in some cases? Obviously. Is sending one of the few Air Dets we have up to the arctic "just in case" a wise use of resources? Likely not.

I'm not anti-helo on AOPVs. I was the guy flown out from Ottawa to make the SWOAD stuff on MAX work this summer. I'm just trying to look at this from a perspective beyond "Wouldn't it be cool?". For every capability we add to the ships, we take something else away.
 
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