Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[Underway]

Per the attached document (interesting read) the hangar is large enough for 2 WildCat or 1 Merlin. There is also space for UAV's of unspecified type, but apparently lots of space for them. The mission bay can also hold up to 10 20ft. containers, so it appears the mission bay either extends under the hangar and the flight deck or forward(unlikely since the funnels are situated there).

Cheers

edit: the mission bay is the same deck as the hanger and the flight deck. As the document notes, in an extreme case the vessel can carry a second Merlin in the mission bay (not in the hangar).

Yes, because the mission bay can be open to the hangar you can conceivably push one helo all the way into the mission bay.  The second helo goes behind it in some drawings I've seen.  Smaller helos like the Wildcat can go in side by side.  The beam of the Type 26 is wider than the CPF by a small amount as well.  The torpedo spaces may not be located alongside the hangar as in the CPF freeing up more space (though that doesn't make sense from a ease of loading the helo's perspective).

With the stacks on either side of the Hgr, it'll get super hot in there. The 280s stack went right thru the middle of the double hgr and it could get unbearable in there especially when closed up at flying stations.

The one on the stbd side seems to be a stack, and it might be a downtake.  Or perhaps for DG's which might have a seperate air handling system. Hard to know from a picture/model.  Good insight!

 

[Good2Golf]

The model is clearly for a single Helo. As the stacks bracket the Hgr there's no way to fit 2 Helos in there... unless they are tiny (eg. Cobra).

With the stacks on either side of the Hgr, it'll get super hot in there. The 280s stack went right thru the middle of the double hgr and it could get unbearable in there especially when closed up at flying stations.

Wouldn't those be only two of the four MTU DG stacks on the Stbd side aft?  Looks like the two fwd DGs are up fwd with the MT30's stack.

:dunno:

G2G

 

[Swampbuggy]

I have a question re: the rear mounted RWS’s. Is their arc of fire sufficient to cover frontal/frt quarter approaching targets? I don’t see any provision for an RWS mount near the bridge wings or VLS.

 

[Lumber]

I have a question re: the rear mounted RWS’s. Is their arc of fire sufficient to cover frontal/frt quarter approaching targets? I don’t see any provision for an RWS mount near the bridge wings or VLS.

That's what the 5" is for  :threat: 

;D

But yea I had the same thought.

I think the logic is that you would rarely by firing forward with those guns.

Either you're conducting some kind of interdiction operations in which case you are abeam of the "target" vessel, or you're reacting to a small boat/swarm attack and are weaving at high speeds "away" from the hostile craft, meaning those gun arcs would be open.

There aren't many situations I can think of where you are going to engage a small boat while also driving straight at it.

Even the current '.50s can't shoot forward.

 

[Swampbuggy]

That's what the 5" if for  :threat: 

;D

I imagine that would get your full attention...

 

[Swampbuggy]

Except for the “main” guns on an MCDV, right?

 

[AirDet]

Yes, because the mission bay can be open to the hangar you can conceivably push one helo all the way into the mission bay.

If the mission bay is tall enough that could work for a ferry trip.

The second helo goes behind it in some drawings I've seen.

 
The Flight deck is too small you can't switch the helos around so you'll be stuck flying only one of the birds. However the advantage would be if someone else fouled your flight deck you could free the deck to recover your helo.

The torpedo spaces may not be located alongside the hangar as in the CPF freeing up more space (though that doesn't make sense from a ease of loading the helo's perspective).

Well, we don't load the helo in the hgr. In fact we only load at sea on the flight deck with the head turning. So this wouldn't matter to us airdet. The ships weapons techs always work well with us. They usually like watching the load. I once recommended qualifying them. That went over like a lead fart.

For the record, I'm not a hard navy trade but I loved the 5+ years I spent at sea. Yes, a zoomie with a gold anchor! I consider myself "naval air".

 

[AirDet]

I regret I'm too long in the tooth to be able to sail on these boats. As it is now one of my good friends has taken the very last seaking det to sea... RimPac.

 

[Underway]

That's what the 5" if for  :threat: 

;D

But yea I had the same thought.

I think the logic is that you would rarely by firing forward with those guns.

Either your conducting some kind of interdiction operations in which case you are abeam of the "target" vessel, or you're reacting to a small boat/swarm attack and are weaving at high speeds "away" from the hostile craft, meaning those gun arcs would be open.

There aren't many situations I can think of where you are going to engage a small boat while also driving straight at it.

Even the current '.50s can't shoot forward.

I wouldn't be overly surprised if there were/could be .50's mounted on the bridge wings, giving coverage close in for those firing arcs.  Taking small boats on the beam would mean overlapping arcs of fire from the 5 inch, 25mm (30mm??) and then .50 at various ranges.  Running from small boat attacks would mean overlapping 25mm arcs astern.  In harbour between bridge wing .50's and hanger quarterdeck (? - just made that deck name up) 25mm you have good coverage of over 180 degrees on each side and overlapping 25mm arcs astern.  And that's what you want, layered defence.  Its certainly not the worst setup.

Contrast with the Alion bid where it looks like a 25mm stbd side forward just below the bridge wing, above the missile deck and one aft on the hangar quarterdeck port side.  These would cover the full forward and stern arcs. They may be able to cover the aft stbd blind spot with the port gun and the forward port blindspot with the stbd gun.  It's pretty close to 360 degree coverage with at least one 25mm.  Nothing wrong with this either, as tactics might dictate different approaches to different situations given the coverage in the two different ships. 

https://alion.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/alion-1024x657.png

Its certainly fun to think of these things and how they might apply to real world situations if/when built.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I regret I'm too long in the tooth to be able to sail on these boats. As it is now one of my good friends has taken the very last seaking det to sea... RimPac.

?

The very last Sea King Det is at sea now...nowhere near RIMPAC.

 

[Swampbuggy]

https://alion.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/alion-1024x657.png[/url]

Its certainly fun to think of these things and how they might apply to real world situations if/when built.

Re: the Alion LCF - Given that it’s some sort of RWS starboard just below the bridge, do we know what the other item is on the port side platform? I can’t quite make it out in the picture. 

 

[Lumber]

Re: the Alion LCF - Given that it’s some sort of RWS starboard just below the bridge, do we know what the other item is on the port side platform? I can’t quite make it out in the picture.

That's a MASS launcher.

 

[Swampbuggy]

That's a MASS launcher.

Ok, thanks! I thought it might be some kind of flare/chaff device, but couldn’t quite get the detail in my picture. Is it usual to have just one onboard, or is it likely that there would be another somewhere on the starboard?

 

[Underway]

Ok, thanks! I thought it might be some kind of flare/chaff device, but couldn’t quite get the detail in my picture. Is it usual to have just one onboard, or is it likely that there would be another somewhere on the starboard?

Starboard on the hangar quarterdeck, across from the other 25mm.  Depending on the type of ECM and your ships signature you see between 2 and 4 chaff/flare launchers to get proper coverage for a frigate sized ship.  But with the various types of countermeasures and ships this is really just a generalization from my own observations.  The VDQ has 3 MASS launchers mounted whereas the rest of the CPF's mount 2.  If the VDQ trial goes well and proves effective you might very well see more MASS launchers start sprouting on other ships.

 

[Swampbuggy]

Starboard on the hangar quarterdeck, across from the other 25mm.  Depending on the type of ECM and your ships signature you see between 2 and 4 chaff/flare launchers to get proper coverage for a frigate sized ship.  But with the various types of countermeasures and ships this is really just a generalization from my own observations.  The VDQ has 3 MASS launchers mounted whereas the rest of the CPF's mount 2.  If the VDQ trial goes well and proves effective you might very well see more MASS launchers start sprouting on other ships.

Very interesting information, thanks for the clarification. I know it’s subjective and doesn’t speak to the capability/coverage of the various systems onboard, but something about that sort of asymmetrical design bothers me. Just aesthetically it’s a bit off putting, not that that should be any sort of knock on the quality of the ship.

 

[AirDet]

?

The very last Sea King Det is at sea now...nowhere near RIMPAC.

The det chief and I go way back. I just assumed it was RimPac.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The Flight deck is too small you can't switch the helos around so you'll be stuck flying only one of the birds.

Actually, AirDet, I think you are fooling yourself by looking at the type 26 as if it is in the same size category as the Halifax's.

It is not: The type 26 is actually 30 percent bigger than the IRO's and about 34 percent bigger than the HAL's.

But more importantly, the flight deck of the type 26 is 14 feet wider than the flight deck of the HAL's (68 feet wide as opposed to 54). I know there is going to be only one deck handling system, but in reasonable sea states and with some hand-draulic power, you could reasonably manage to switch between the helo in the hangar and the one pushed into the flex deck. Tons of room on deck (so long as you don't try with the blades deployed  ) to do the switch.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I have handraulically moved a sea King out from and back into the hangar on a frigate, once.

It took the entire air department, plus the FD Stoker and Electrician, most of the firefighters and a couple of random bosons who were just passing by.

There was nothing easy about it.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I said "reasonably" ... not "easily".

Just saying that it's not true that you couldn't switch. That's all.

Also, since the flex deck is quite big, if you carried two helos fully folded, wouldn't it be possible to then carry a small aviation tractor?

 

[AirDet]

Actually, AirDet, I think you are fooling yourself by looking at the type 26 as if it is in the same size category as the Halifax's.

It is not: The type 26 is actually 30 percent bigger than the IRO's and about 34 percent bigger than the HAL's.

But more importantly, the flight deck of the type 26 is 14 feet wider than the flight deck of the HAL's (68 feet wide as opposed to 54). I know there is going to be only one deck handling system, but in reasonable sea states and with some hand-draulic power, you could reasonably manage to switch between the helo in the hangar and the one pushed into the flex deck. Tons of room on deck (so long as you don't try with the blades deployed  ) to do the switch.

It was tricky enough to do on the tanker with a mule. On anything narrower it's not doable. Don't forget the Cyclone is wider than the Seaking. Having worked the flight deck for 15 years I have a pretty good idea what can and can't be done on the back end. You are not swapping two helos on that deck without flying both of them off and swapping in the air.