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CANSEC 2025

Hanwha displaying the K9 Thunder and a wheeled K9 variant at CANSEC (and still pushing hard for a Canadian sale).


I'm curious if the autoloading system on the K10 re-supply vehicle could also be mounted on a wheeled chassis if the K9/wheeled K9 turret layouts are similar?
 
Hanwha displaying the K9 Thunder and a wheeled K9 variant at CANSEC (and still pushing hard for a Canadian sale).


I'm curious if the autoloading system on the K10 re-supply vehicle could also be mounted on a wheeled chassis if the K9/wheeled K9 turret layouts are similar?
I see no reason why it couldn't and I continue to be amazed that none of the wheeled options produced across the board do not have a tactical "limber vehicle." That thing that Archer has isn't "tactical" its "administrative." I think folks have gotten so wrapped up in the "shoot and scoot" technique that everyone is trying to cheap out and sell the buyers on the notion that reloads happen administratively off unarmoured standard logistics vehicles. At some point that has to happen but I prefer a "logistics to limber; limber to gun" system where the gun and limber and unit ammo vehicles hold the specified basic load.

Moreover, the more that you go to dispersed operations the more important that tactical reloads by armoured limber vehicles become a necessity. On top of that I'm of the view that guns can do "shoot and scoot" for only so long. There will be times where they will need to move into dug in positions with collocated AD resources in order to supply the weight and continuity of fire required for specific operations. Again, a forward deployed, armoured limber vehicle, becomes a prerequisite.

IMHO, the US M992 and the S Korean K10 are good examples of what a limber vehicle ought to be.

As an aside - the wheeled K9 looks like a very big truck using stabilizers. I don't like big trucks. It doesn't strike me as advanced as RCH on Boxer (albeit I'm not yet convinced that RCH on Boxer can do everything its touted as able to do - the Brits seem to think otherwise) Personally, I think Canada's penchant for wheeled this and that is a big mistake. Tracks are not an option.

🍻
 
I see no reason why it couldn't and I continue to be amazed that none of the wheeled options produced across the board do not have a tactical "limber vehicle." That thing that Archer has isn't "tactical" its "administrative." I think folks have gotten so wrapped up in the "shoot and scoot" technique that everyone is trying to cheap out and sell the buyers on the notion that reloads happen administratively off unarmoured standard logistics vehicles. At some point that has to happen but I prefer a "logistics to limber; limber to gun" system where the gun and limber and unit ammo vehicles hold the specified basic load.

Moreover, the more that you go to dispersed operations the more important that tactical reloads by armoured limber vehicles become a necessity. On top of that I'm of the view that guns can do "shoot and scoot" for only so long. There will be times where they will need to move into dug in positions with collocated AD resources in order to supply the weight and continuity of fire required for specific operations. Again, a forward deployed, armoured limber vehicle, becomes a prerequisite.

IMHO, the US M992 and the S Korean K10 are good examples of what a limber vehicle ought to be.

As an aside - the wheeled K9 looks like a very big truck using stabilizers. I don't like big trucks. It doesn't strike me as advanced as RCH on Boxer (albeit I'm not yet convinced that RCH on Boxer can do everything its touted as able to do - the Brits seem to think otherwise) Personally, I think Canada's penchant for wheeled this and that is a big mistake. Tracks are not an option.

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But they're cheaper than tracks, and last longer, so much more attractive to the penny pinchers ;)

Wheeled SPA platforms – a wheely good or wheely bad idea?​


However, the ‘would strategic or tactical mobility win out’ debates is one of those for which there appears to be no winner in sight. What is not debatable though is that those wheeled platforms, even the most sophisticated examples, will be cheaper to procure. Estimates of course vary, but these average out at around a 30-40% cost saving for wheels compared to tracks, and through-life costs will also favour the wheeled option. The tracked steel box option will however have the potential for a longer service life, even if that includes a mid-life refresh and/or upgrade of some form.

 
Yes, they are. If anything artillery is the one system where tracks really are an option that is likely better in almost every scenario.
Actually that's what I meant. Tracks shouldn't be an option; tracks should be mandatory. I see where what I said could have been interpreted the other way.

I'm still seething that the IFM calls for an 80kph speed requirement knowing full well that all tracked howitzers fall just below that limit. It's a blatant attempt by those in the system to skew the outcome to wheeled which, IMHO, is just plain stupid.

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Actually that's what I meant. Tracks shouldn't be an option; tracks should be mandatory. I see where what I said could have been interpreted the other way.

I'm still seething that the IFM calls for an 80kph speed requirement knowing full well that all tracked howitzers fall just below that limit. It's a blatant attempt by those in the system to skew the outcome to wheeled which, IMHO, is just plain stupid.

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I actually meant to say WHEELS are the better option in almost every scenario (and I can't edit my post! It will haunt me forever now... lol). Not tracks.

Cheaper to operate, cheaper to procure, higher platform availability rates (without the need for specialist technicians in many cases), better survivability, limited need for offroad mobility, better strategic mobility, lower training time for drivers/operators, faster build times.

Tracks are just plain stupid on artillery. This tracked infatuation needs to stop.
 
I actually meant to say WHEELS are the better option in almost every scenario (and I can't edit my post! It will haunt me forever now... lol). Not tracks.

Cheaper to operate, cheaper to procure, higher platform availability rates (without the need for specialist technicians in many cases), better survivability, limited need for offroad mobility, better strategic mobility, lower training time for drivers/operators, faster build times.

Tracks are just plain stupid on artillery. This tracked infatuation needs to stop.

:)

Shooting Shots Fired GIF by Call of Duty
 
I actually meant to say WHEELS are the better option in almost every scenario (and I can't edit my post! It will haunt me forever now... lol). Not tracks.
You live and die by the posts you make, not the ones you intended to make. I think Rumsfeld said that. :giggle:
Cheaper to operate, cheaper to procure, higher platform availability rates (without the need for specialist technicians in many cases), better survivability, limited need for offroad mobility, better strategic mobility, lower training time for drivers/operators, faster build times.
Wheeled guns are bigger than your average barn, top heavy and get stuck on the word "mud" painted an on concrete driveway.

According to Wikipedia (that font of everything that is true and accurate) an RCH 155 comes in at €12 million (CA$ 18.84 million) while a K9 in 2021 cost CA$ 4 million. Just last month, India made a deal for 100 K9s at a price of CA$3.49 million apiece albeit that sounds like a component purchase with final assembly to be done in India. That shows a great opportunity for Canada to obtain low cost components for a Canadian manufacturer.

Off-road, strategic mobility is a Chimera fostered by wheeled armour producers and their Stockholmian accolades. The need for off-road tactical mobility for SP howitzers is undervalued by the FOB generation. SP gns move strategically very rarely and tactically many times in one day.

All heavy mechanized equipment requires proper maintenance - especially as it gets older and used - as is being realized by the LAV afficiados who have low balled their maintenance requirements for decades. Driver training of tracked SPs is just as easy, if not easier, than the training of a driver of a top-heavy wheeled SP. The M109 had steering wheels rather than tillers in the 1960s and if anyone thinks that driver maintenance on a 30 ton wheeled SP is easy . . .
Tracks are just plain stupid on artillery. This tracked infatuation needs to stop.
Wheels are just plain stupid on armoured SP artillery (as it is with AFVs and IFVs). This spiritual worship of the holy all-singing, all-dancing mega/multi-wheel has to stop.

:giggle:;)
 
If I am standing off 100 km from the target why am I parked in the only mud puddle in 31,400 km2 of available gun positions?
 
If I am standing off 100 km from the target why am I parked in the only mud puddle in 31,400 km2 of available gun positions?
You may not have a choice. The mud puddle very well might be the only place that is suitable for an area somewhat protected from overhead observation.

Additionally, you are likely not 100km away. You are likely closer - in the danger zone for enemy observation from air ISR, or attack by various drone platforms / artillery. Tactical mobility is one of the most critical aspects on the modern battlespace.
 
You may not have a choice. The mud puddle very well might be the only place that is suitable for an area somewhat protected from overhead observation.

Additionally, you are likely not 100km away. You are likely closer - in the danger zone for enemy observation from air ISR, or attack by various drone platforms / artillery. Tactical mobility is one of the most critical aspects on the modern battlespace.


So how about wheels for GS/LRPF batteries and tracks for CS batteries?

Wheels for the Deep Recce Strike Brigade and tracks for the CS regiments attached to armoured brigades?

Wheels for LOC GBAD?

Wheels for civilian defence GBAD?

Thinking here of reports that there is 155 Anti Aircraft Round.
 
So how about wheels for GS/LRPF batteries and tracks for CS batteries?
I can live with HIMARS. The Brits and Germans, OTOH, tend to favour LMRS-type systems. The US swings both ways.
Wheels for the Deep Recce Strike Brigade and tracks for the CS regiments attached to armoured brigades?
If you look at the UKs 1 DRSBCT you'll see Ajax and MLRS. They planned on AS90 (until they gave them away).
Wheels for LOC GBAD?
Not the issue but I'm a fan of using the same weapon but on a tracked chassis for tracked formations and wheeled for wheeled. MOOG turrets are good for that.
Wheels for civilian defence GBAD?

Thinking here of reports that there is 155 Anti Aircraft Round.
Irrelevant for the time being and I'll wait for the 155 once its out of the glossy brochure state and someone has evaluated its operational use against simpler systems.

🍻
 
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