Careless driving...anyone?

[Pea]

Hi All.. Looking for a little advice if you don't mind.

This past Thursday I was in a car accident. We had crappy weather all day.  As I was on my way home at night, I was approaching a red light and tried to stop, only to find I was on a huge sheet of ice and unable to stop in time. I ended up rear ending a vehicle in front of me. His vehicle suffered minor damage (cracked bumper), where as my whole front passengers side pretty much caved in. (good ole plastic Honda's) Thankfully we were all ok, with minimal soreness. I'm dealing with my insurance company now, to see what will be done with my car. (the darn thing was only 5 months old... GAH!)

I've since been charged with careless driving. It's a $400 fine and a loss of 6 demerits! I'm curious if anyone here as fought this? Due to road conditions or something? I'm just trying to weigh my options here. I've got a call into my lawyer, and just waiting for him to call back. In the meantime, can anyone offer any words of wisdom? I'd really appreciate it.

 

[Roy Harding]

As I recall (from my wife's various minor accidents), whenever you rear-end somebody, you are almost ALWAYS the guilty party.  Could be "careless driving", "following to close", "driving too fast for conditions", or whatever.

Fortunately, in your case no one was hurt, and that's the big thing.

My advice?  Wait for your lawyer's advice.

 

[Old Sweat]

I once witnessed an accident where a truck rear-ended a small car, fortunately without injuring anyone. When the case came to trial several months later, I was asked by the crown attorney if I could swear that the vehicle was following too close. He also cautioned me that the defence attorney would challenge my testimony as I was not an expert witness. The bottom line is that the crown withdrew the charge, much to the annoyance of myself and the other witnesses. However the police officer who had investigated the accident and laid the charge told us that the truck driver would have paid two or three times his potential fine in legal fees, albeit without having a conviction registered with all that that meant in demerit points and increased insurance.

 

[William Webb Ellis]

Well, I don't know about where you live but in my city, The Crown will often plead out the tickets.  Because they are very busy they are willing to reduce the work load.  In Calgary, you could (not sure about now) go down to the courthouse and speak to The Crown.  Generally, it went like this. 

Sorry, I hit buddy but I was not being carless the roads were really out of this world icy.  I am willing to pay the full $400, if you can waive the demerits.  You should know that your insurance may increase more than $400 total over the next 3-5 years due to the accident.  So although the $400 hurts, it is economically better.

You may also want to call you insurer and see if you qualify for accident grace, you know, long time customer few if any prior accidents.  Also, some insurers will allow you to "pay them back" the costs of the claim.  Again, do the math, is this cheaper than the rate increase?

Cheers

 

[George Wallace]

Usually in cases where you are involved with a collision on ice, you will be nailed with "Driving too fast for conditions". 

 

[Scratch_043]

Okay, similar question.

2 weeks ago, I was involved in a collision, I was driving a company vehicle, at 4am (security) and a Taxi stopped in the middle of the road to kick out a drunk passenger, I tried to avoid him, and almost succeeded. I was charged with careless, because I hit him. (I am more than reasonably certain that he is at fault, and should have been charged with stopping in a roadway, but taxi drivers get special treatment around here, it seems.) I have just gotten off the phone with the courthouse, and it turns out, I can't even get a first attendance meeting (meeting with the prosecutor to settle out of court if possible) until the second week of January.

Will this completely screw up my application to the CF? (filling out the papers as I type this)
Will I be delayed in getting my application approved until after I get done with the traffic ticket?
and
Will I be barred from enrolling for a set amount of time afterwards? (I asked the Sgt. at the RC about this one, and she said that she didn't know for sure about careless, or other infractions, but speeding is essentially a non issue. But she also said that it may prevent me from applying for 2 years from date of conviction, since it is more than a simple speeding ticket.)

If the second is the only one that is true, I will just plead guilty to the ticket, so I can still enroll, but I would prefer not to, because I feel as though I am not. My car insurance is going to skyrocket though, I'm affraid.

If someone who knows about this stuff, or has applied with a traffic ticket either still in court, or recently on record, please let me know what the score is. I don't want to wait for 2 years to join because of some stupid cabby who couldn't take the pressure of a drunk passenger.

 

[condor888000]

Points is the perfect place to go. Or any other similar idea such as X-Copper out here. They are good. It'll cost you about $400, but its worth it. I was charged with unsafe lane change, fine of $410. Went to X-Copper, they managed to get it reduced to a bylaw. Fine was $150 AND it doesn't carry any demerits so my insurance doesn't go up.

It is more immediately, however works out to a lot less in the long run. I'd much rather shell out now, get those demerits wiped off and then not have my insurance go through the roof.

Oh and before I forget, did you have winter tires on? Cause if not, get them! Well worth paying the cash and being safer in the long run than on "all seasons."

 

[Pea]

Thanks for the quick advice all. I heard back from my lawyer, and he too suggested trying to get it brought down to a lesser charge.

Niner Domestic, thank you very much for your advice. I have contacted POINTTS and they are taking a look at my case, and preparing a quote for me. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Now.. if only my insurance company would get on the ball and return some calls. It's bloody cold out, and I want my rental!

 

[Lost_Warrior]

2 weeks ago, I was involved in a collision, I was driving a company vehicle, at 4am (security) and a Taxi stopped in the middle of the road to kick out a drunk passenger, I tried to avoid him, and almost succeeded. I was charged with careless, because I hit him. (I am more than reasonably certain that he is at fault, and should have been charged with stopping in a roadway, but taxi drivers get special treatment around here, it seems.)

Wow.. That should most definately be the fault of the taxi driver, but the law is funny like that.  Say for instance you are driving down the street and slam on the breaks (doesn't really have to be a reason) and the guy behind you slams into you, although logic and reason would make you think that this was your fault, the law will still blame the guy who hit you.

It happened to someone I know, and coincidentally it involved a taxi driver too.  The guy was driving downtown, and the cab driver in front on him slammed on the breaks in the middle of the street and started to pull over to someone waiving him down.  My buddy couldn't stop in time and went right into the back of the cab.

He wasn't driving too fast, and it was a busy downtown street, so you can't really drive at the recommended separated distance.  Someone will just pull in between you.

1200$ in damages, and charged with driving too close. 

But I know what you mean about special treatment for cab drivers.  I think its like that everywhere.  Here in Montreal, I can't count how many times I saw cab drivers go right through red lights, or speed in school zones, and cops around don't do a thing.

 

[ThatsLife]

I'm guessing you live in Vancouver because we have just got a crap load of snow this weekend and people here have never seen snow before...they're terrified of driving. Anyways, in a car I recommend you pump the brakes instead of  you just holding the brake down because if you hold it down during a slide there's no momentum working against you. And when coming to a stop try and slow down and feather the brake and give some more room for yourself to stop.

As for $400's you lost...All I can say is 'damn'..

 

[aesop081]

I'm guessing you live in Vancouver

No...she doesnt.....

 

[ThatsLife]

No...she doesnt.....

My  bad, didn't check her profile

 

[aesop081]

, in a car I recommend you pump the brakes instead of  you just holding the brake down

Pumping the brakes in an ABS equiped car WILL work against you.........

 

[ThatsLife]

Some cars do not come equipped with ABS, but yes you're right it would work against you if your vehicle does come equipped with ABS. Forgot to mention that

 

[GUNS]

Can't believe you were charged. I rear-ended a car due to ice on the road and nothing happened to me. My insurance looked after the car I hit and then increased my premiums. As a matter of fact, the police never even showed up. We just exchanged insurance information and went on our way. I am not sure but here we don't bother with the police if the damage is less than $500

 

[Pea]

Thanks for providing some of that info for me cdnaviator.  :-*

I had to involve the police, as my damage is over $1,000 on my car. (getting an estimate done shortly, and will update, but my damage is looking pretty pricey. Silly plastic imports!) I guess whenever they report a rear end they have to charge the person with careless driving. They asked no questions, just made some rude assumptions and charged me. *sigh*

We'll see how it goes I guess. I'm gathering more info for the POINTTS guys now. Wish me luck!

*Editited to take personal info out.

 

[camochick]

Some cars do not come equipped with ABS, but yes you're right it would work against you if your vehicle does come equipped with ABS. Forgot to mention that

All new cars come equipped with ABS.

Pea, I feel for you. I hope that you can fight this and atleast keep your points. They should take your demerits away from the bonehead who rear ended the husband at the red light in completely dry conditions. That guy should have lost his licence.

 

[geo]

Careless driving
Careless driving is one of the most serious charges under the Highway Traffic Act.
The Highway Traffic Act (of Ontario) defines careless driving as driving on a highway without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway.

To qualify as careless, the Court of Appeal held in a 1953 case, the driving must be considered a breach of duty to the public and deserving of punishment.
"This principle may be somewhat difficult to apply," the court said, "but I think it might be illustrated by the common example of a motorist attempting to park at the curb in a space between two other parked vehicles. Frequently one or other of the parked vehicles is bumped in the process. Damage seldom arises, because cars are equipped with bumpers, but if damage were caused it might well give rise to a civil action for damages, but it could hardly be said to be such a lack of care or attention as would be considered to be deserving of punishment as a crime or quasi-crime."
"The test, where an accident has occurred, is not whether, if the accused had used greater care or skill, the accident would not have happened. It is whether it is proved beyond reasonable doubt that the accused, in the light of existing circumstances of which he was aware or of which a driver exercising ordinary care should have been aware, failed to use the care and attention or to give to other persons using the highway the consideration that a driver of ordinary care would have used or given in the circumstances."

Several principles have emerged over the years from court rulings on careless driving:
-The standard against which the defendant's driving must be measured is not one of perfection. The driving of the defendant must be measured against a reasonable standard or skill, what an ordinary person would do.
- A momentary lapse or a simple error in judgment is insufficient to justify a conviction for careless driving.
- Where an accident has occurred, the fact that serious injury or death has resulted is not, except in unusual cases, relevant to an assessment of whether there has been a departure from the standard of care which would justify a finding of careless driving.
- Mere inadvertent negligence will not necessarily support a conviction for careless driving. More than a bare act of negligence must be proven.

http://www.defencelaw.com/careless-driving.html

 

[geo]

Pea,
a fender bender at low speed does not, a careless driving conviction make.

The material I quoted above relates to Ontario but - per the courts, the defenitions should be portable to other provinces - excl Quebec where jurisprudence does not apply (which can be good or bad - usually bad).

Talk to legal aid

 

[Byerly]

Had you been driving with due care and attention you would not have been in the collision.  I will not call it an accident, because accidents are what happend before collisions..  Part of excercising due care and attention is being cognizant of the road and weather conditions, and driving accordingly.  If the roads are slick, you put extra space between vehicles and allow yourself extra time to stop.

Stu