CBSA arming

[J.J]

Gate_Guard
I don't believe my job will be safer if I am armed, but it will not be more dangerous. I have several times taken a handgun from somebody concealed on their person and that person was a convicted violent criminal. Why they did not fight, probably because they thought they would loose due to officer presence. Most people from the states and quite a few from Canada already believe we are armed. Last year I took a loaded revolver from a convicted murder from Detroit, when asked by the Correctional Officers in the County jail why he did not shoot himself out of the situation, he replied, "he did not want his girlfriend hurt in the crossfire". When he was told that we were not armed, he cursed and stated he should have shot me and my partner and went back to the States. Another situation; A female Officer was examining a car alone (it was busy night and we were understaffed). While examining the car, she observed a couple of bullet holes in the car, the car was freshly painted (with a roller) and during the exam she found indicators of narcotics. She called for assistance and the 3 males from Chicago, who were obvious gang members, became agitated. One male said out loud to the others, "she doesn't have a gun". One male then pulled a semi-automatic handgun from his pocket and started to point it at her; she grabbed his arm and started to fight for her life. We arrived and we were able to disarm the male and arrest all 3 subjects. It was found out later that the subjects had committed a murder in Chicago from doing a drive by. They were turned over to CPD and they were convicted of 1st degree murder.
So I don't believe the criminals will be easier on us because we are not armed. I think we need it to protect ourselves and the public.

Thainc
I do apologize for you having to wait 3 1/2 hours, but sometimes the innocents must suffer. In this case the ends do justify the means. We have always had a need to be armed, more so in the past 6 years. Customs has had the ability to enforce the Criminal Code since 2000. We now regularly arrest people for warrants, impaired driving, firearms etc. So our hazards at work have increased ten fold. We are not grocery cops anymore, concerned about how much turkey and cheese you have.
Think of it this way. A bad guy crosses the border, I talk to him, identify him as a bad guy and I release him because I do not have the tools to apprehend him. He is released from the border and I contact the local Police. In my situation the local Police HQ is 200m away. Our port runners still get away regularly, because there are too many places to hide. That bad guy enters the town you live in and hurts someone who is dear to you or someone you know. How are you going to feel knowing I could have stopped him? I use the example of Charles NG, he was a serial killer from California who was identified as a bad guy at a border crossing in BC, he was released and he committed several crimes in Canada. He shot a security guard in Calgary and it took several years for him to get extradited back to the states. It went as high as our Supreme Court. If he would have been apprehended at a point of entry, he would have been returned to the US immediately.
Your friend at the airport, no offense to Officer's who work at an airport, but he works in a sterile environment where everybody has gone through security. The environment of a land border is %100 differant.

 

[HDE]

I think the Customs and Excise Union is going to be pretty careful in how it uses the arming of the Customs Officers.  If it tries to use it as a claim that large pay increases are justified because they're become defacto police officers the public may well demand that the training, qualifications, work conditions, etc. are at the same level as police officers.  What impact would that have on the job?

 

[J.J]

The CBSA are not defacto Police, but they a do job similar to them. I will concede that the hiring practice needs to be improved, but what is wrong with the training? Ask Zipperhead, in Windsor a regular uniformed BSO's regularly attends courses  that only specialized or senior Police Officer's get to attend. What is different from my work environment/qualifications to that of the Police? I don't believe there is much difference.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Neither do I WR, if it helps getting you guys the tools/training you need to do your part in keeping us all safe then keep up the pressure. 

Good luck.
Bruce

 

[medaid]

IMHO, BSO do need to be armed. Currently they have a police defensive baton (Read ASP), hand cuffs, and OC spray. These are woefully inadequate at borders  sometimes. Lets shift focus for a minute to the Sear ports. CBSA also have narc teams and container examination teams that routinely board ships foreign and domestic. I think some of the NBP members on here could probably tell you things could go sour in a very short period of time while they're on a ship, yet the CBSA members don't have the luxury of defending themselves IF and WHEN things go sour. It's pretty silly to think you can fight a CQB on board a ship with nothing but a PDB and OC.

At to the point of pay increase. CBSA BSOs have been underpaid for the amount of work they do since day one. A constable who enforces only a handfull of legislation, are paid more in their 4 years of pay progression, then does a BSO who enforces upwards to 15+ pieces of legilstation which also includes parts of the Immigration act when travellers approach them at the primary inspection line, and other things ranging from Food Inspection to CITES for endangered animals. Should they be paid more? YES. Should they be paid more because they are armed? YES. However, the yes to the second question should be because they've always been underpaid for the amount of work that they do.

I think WR can attest to the fact that especially at Land Borders, because there isnt an over abundent number of Immigration Officers, they may have to enforce more and not have the luxury of sending them to the Immigration sections at the International Airports.

 

[J.J]

who enforces upwards to 15+ pieces of legalization which also includes parts of the Immigration act when travellers approach them at the primary inspection line, and other things ranging from Food Inspection to CITES for endangered animals.

First of all Thank you Bruce and MedTech, but MedTech we enforce or administer 91 acts of Parliament

 

[medaid]

First of all Thank you Bruce and Medic, but Medic we enforce or administer 91 acts of Parliament

sorry  I couldnt remember exactly how man, but hey 15+ does include 90 right?  ;D

 

[J.J]

If you want to be technical.... ;D

 

[medaid]

If you want to be technical.... ;D

 

[HDE]

Apparently BSOs are paid something in the range of $55,000 per year, whereas a Mountie is paid about $70,000,  so it appears the jobs are not considered
equivalent and having a sidearm issued probably doesn't close the gap.  There are all sorts of issues in determining what a particular job pays and simply saying a BSO is "underpaid" doesn't carry much weight.  How many months of training is required relative to a Mountie?  Do BSOs routinely get transferred to postings aanywhere in most of Canada?  Does being in the union allow more room to not perform/ dispute orders?  Is there the same competitive process/selectiveness  to get taken on as a BSO as there is to be accepted as a Mountie?    Traditionally large numbers of university students, with even less training than a regular BSO,  have been taken on to cover the summer period so the claim that the job is as dangerous/complex as that of a police officer is a stretch.

 

[medaid]

Apparently BSOs are paid something in the range of $55,000 per year, whereas a Mountie is paid about $70,000,  so it appears the jobs are not considered
equivalent and having a sidearm issued probably doesn't close the gap.  There are all sorts of issues in determining what a particular job pays and simply saying a BSO is "underpaid" doesn't carry much weight.  How many months of training is required relative to a Mountie?  Do BSOs routinely get transferred to postings anywhere in most of Canada?  Does being in the union allow more room to not perform/ dispute orders?  Is there the same competitive process/selectiveness  to get taken on as a BSO as there is to be accepted as a Mountie?    Traditionally large numbers of university students, with even less training than a regular BSO,  have been taken on to cover the summer period so the claim that the job is as dangerous/complex as that of a police officer is a stretch.

I agree that simply saying BSOs are underpaid doesn't carry much weight, however, I'm sure the members on the forum here who are CBSA members will be able to testify, that at times the jobs are similar if not much different. Like WR said, the members are now enforcing the CC, which means that in addition to the training you've received at Rigeau (spelling?) you have to complete a study package and exam in order to receive your Officer Powers certification.The last time I checked the training for CBSA in Quebec was 11 wks? (I may be wrong...WR?) now during this period all they do is learn legilstaion after legislation. You may argue, well their training is shorter then! But you also have to look at it in perspective, because the training IS different. A BSO is not expected to complete a course on how to operate an emergency vehicle, the employment of sidearms and the use of force IMIM while they are there, and they are not taught drill. So naturally, the training is shortened slightly, no?

The powers of a BSO is far greater then an RCMP officer on the road. True that the BSO are not peace officers when they are off duty, like members of the police force, however, the amount of enforcement they are required to do when they are on duty is immense. if you've looked at the Customs Act, you will see why. By nature of enforcing such a legislation and others on top like I've previously mentioned, Food Inspection, Cites, CC and other 90 odd FEDERAL legislations, the training and time spent on that alone should warrant a higher salary no? The same argument goes for why a MA or PhD gets paid more then a BA. More training, better training, more in depth training in certain areas. I gather some may think that's a poor comparison, but that's the best one I can come up with right now.

No, a BSO does not get routinely transferred to different provinces, however, neither does that many ppl in the RCMP, at least here in BC 'E' Div they attempt to retain you here as hard as possible at the detachment you initially go to. That being said, there are more RCMP officers then BSOs. Like WR previously pointed out, the land border crossings are extremely dangerous at night, and help is quite some times away. It's not like a member of a police force who, most of the time will be working with other members on the same watch and the same shift. Not so at certain hours at the land border crossings. There are NO 10-33 buttons some times! Selection process is quite competitive in CBSA as well. There involves a written exam, several interviews and criminal background checks just like the police force. Granted no PT tests are administered, however, they expect you to be in decent physical shape, as part of your contracts now, you are expected to be able to pass a one week training on Use of Force. A part you MUST pass in order for your to be considered fully hired under your contract.

I don't know about your comment about being in a union and the choice of not perform or dispute orders... when it comes to enforcement, there's rarely any say or much say with regards to choices. BSOs are just like any other enforcement officers, they enforce. PERIOD. I think that comment has a negative slant on enforcement agencies and their unions...there's a local police force with a union, as a matter of fact many of them do. Are they able to dispute/not perform orders?

Lastly, the Summer Student Program. When you are in a uniform, does a bad guy care who you are? You will be shot, if it comes down to it either way. The selection process is just as gruelling for a summer student, albeit much less then a regular member, but just as gruelling. You are expected to pass the same entrance exam as the regular member, you are facing the same interview as the regular member, and you have a background check just like the regular members do in the CBSA. Danger level and complexity of the job is hard to compare. Does a police officer interview travellers everyday to determine whether they are a threat to the security of Canada, or whether their stay or entrance into our great country may have adverse effects? NO. Does a BSO have a chance at being targeted, injured, and threatened by strangers like a police officer can? YES and it happens more often then you may think. The students are trained by some of the most senior and competent regular members on the job, and they are not released until they have met the requirements to do the job of the regular members. The students are NOT union, so if they perform poorly, they will be terminated. They are held to even a higher standard by their colleagues because many of them are assessed to see if they can do the job later on, as termed or un-termed employees, or even regular members. And they don't 'COVER' they do the SAME job as any primary or secondary officer. They also must pass the same one week course as regular members when it comes to Use of Force.

The RCMP also had summer student programs, where they receive training, and are partnered up with a member. They do the same shifts, attend the same calls, and are exposed to the same dangers. Are the dangers and complexity levels of their jobs stretching it? Because they are paid members. Are they considered to be just as poorly trained as the Student BSOs? Keep in mind an RCMP Student Cst performs at even a lower level of enforcement then a Student BSO does. What about the dangers and complexity levels of an Aux. Cst? they are not paid, they are not armed with a side arm, but they wear a uniform, and are exposed to the same dangers. Many of them have fallen in the line of duty along side of regular members... so? what say you?

 

[geo]

Don't have an opinion on having the border guards armed.... but I thing that the the border crossing posts should have "teeth"....... until the border guard tells ya that it's OK to proceed, your vehicle should be immobilized at the border post...... It you try to blast thru.... you start off your day with the need for a new set of tyres.

 

[Greywolf]

Arming border guards is all well and good, but why it takes 10 years!! to do so is beyond me.  I would call that incompetence in management.  If the government is serious about it, then they should allocate the resources (money/training personnel...) right away, not in a few years. 

 

[noneck]

"The powers of a BSO is far greater then an RCMP officer on the road."

MedTech- BULL^&*T plain and simple....talk about what you know! I will not slag CBSA officers, I work with them daily and they perform an outstanding job.

RCMP members have to have a working knowledge of not only the CCC but all other Federal Acts up to and including the Migratory Bird Act! As well as provincial acts such as the MVA here in BC and the local municipal bylaws from the community that they serve.

We are talking apples and oranges. I too am glad to hear that they are being armed but the duties of a BSO are not the same as the duties of a police officer Muni or RCMP. If CBSA is going to take on more of an armed enforcement role then some significant things in their recruiting and training will need to change. If the powers that be in charge are up to it, then bring it on. Law enforcement in canada needs all the help we can get.

Noneck

 

[TCBF]

"Arming border guards is all well and good, but why it takes 10 years!! to do so is beyond me.  I would call that incompetence in management.  If the government is serious about it, then they should allocate the resources (money/training personnel...) right away, not in a few years."

- Some 'crat sold the guvmint a bill of goods on that one.  He is hoping that the REAL guvmint will return and things will go back to the status quo before too many uppity red-neck customs guys get their six-shooters, is what he is hoping.

The guvmint no doubt knows this, and will move him along with the rest of the Commie trash once the guvmint's position is more secure. 

 

[medaid]

"The powers of a BSO is far greater then an RCMP officer on the road."

MedTech- BULL^&*T plain and simple....talk about what you know! I will not slag CBSA officers, I work with them daily and they perform an outstanding job.

Yup you're right, and now that I've re-read it, I realised that wasn't what I had intended to say. I meant to say that 'In some respect, the powers of a BSO is far greater then an RCMP officer on the road. ie. when ppl are entering and exiting Canada'

We are talking apples and oranges. I too am glad to hear that they are being armed but the duties of a BSO are not the same as the duties of a police officer Muni or RCMP. If CBSA is going to take on more of an armed enforcement role then some significant things in their recruiting and training will need to change. If the powers that be in charge are up to it, then bring it on. Law enforcement in canada needs all the help we can get.

Noneck

mmm yes I agree not the same, but similar in certain aspects, and I've said that previously. maybe not apples and oranges, but how bout apples and pears? similar but different?


cheers,

MT

 

[Colin Parkinson]

"Arming border guards is all well and good, but why it takes 10 years!! to do so is beyond me.  I would call that incompetence in management.  If the government is serious about it, then they should allocate the resources (money/training personnel...) right away, not in a few years."

- Some 'crat sold the guvmint a bill of goods on that one.  He is hoping that the REAL guvmint will return and things will go back to the status quo before too many uppity red-neck customs guys get their six-shooters, is what he is hoping.

The guvmint no doubt knows this, and will move him along with the rest of the Commie trash once the guvmint's position is more secure. 

First of all you need to get rid of the senior management blocking this drive will awaiting rescue by the Liberals!

The big issue is covering off people on training, it will be a huge cost that will ave to be absorbed, how do you deal with the union issues? Plus it may mean a reclassification of the positions, which could impose another major financial hit.

The best thing would to grab the recruits coming in and send them to a firearms training centre, does not really matter what they train on, although I suspect it will be a glock or another polymer (XD, SIG or S&W MP). They need the basic skills first anyways, once they have that, they can transition to another firearm. Canvas the existing employees for people that already have firearms experience and volunteers who want to learn. These two groups will be the core of your firearm training and support team, they can write up the job specs with help from other LEO’s.

I suspect Glock and S&W will behind over backwards for the contract, so you even our government could negotiate a decent deal, buy a couple of hundred guns now with parts, repair training and handling training, spend the next 2 years training this core group and at the same time prepare the union agreement, job description, training plans, SOP’s, procure funding for training. You will also need to create regional implementation teams to coordinate training with other LEO’s , rent ranges and training time. It’s a lot of work. 

 

[TCBF]

Alright, let me give this a MODERN perspective...  If the guvmint demanded the Border Cops be given a ten day mandatory course in Sexual Harrasment and Racism Prevention, do you think it would take them TEN STINKING YEARS to do it?

I'm just askin' is all...

 

[Nug]

Its probably not going to take ten years to train. It will take ten years for them to figure out how and with what. Its likely that even though a blind man could have seen this coming that there has been no forethought put into this at all, like picking a weapon, caliber, holster, training program,use of force guidelines, what qualifications do you want in a use of force instructor and who is going to train them. As has been said before a lot of management in the BSA are ignoring the problem in the hopes it will turn out to be a bad dream.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Ten years is an arbitrary Liberal number set such that nobody that is in power when it was set could possible be held accountable for such a unreal deadline.  However, when an officer gets killed at the border, some tool can go "but we had a plan in place". 
I don't get why some people are getting defensive on behalf of the RCMP?  Customs does have greater powers of search and seizure at the border.  RCMP are bound by the rules of the Code, just like the rest of us.  And if they can make as much money as the rest of us LEO's, then so be it.  How does that ruin somebody else's day?  Surely securing the border better is a worthwhile federal expense? 
The alternative is for them to continue to let dangerous asshats into our country, and I don't blame them.  The crap they get saddled with is unbelievable.  As far as tapping local resources to intercept these clowns, the procedure is purely reactive.  When the target m/v comes through, they let it go and call us.  They are not mobile, so all they can tell us is "it went left/right  out of the driveway".  Which in downtown Windsor is less than useless information, since both directions require a subsequent turn within a block or so. 
I do agree with the dragons teeth devices.  However, the problem arises when the booth (primary) refers a car to the inspection area (secondary).  If the referred car doesn't go where it is supposed to, that is where you would want to set up your spikes.  However, then you have the issue of any other cars in motion at the same time getting taken out as well, which will get expensive pretty fast for the Fed.  Or, if there is a common funnel point for all cars, the choke point would create a brutal traffic backup and you are back to your 4+ hour waits.  What needs to happen is once the BSO's are armed, they will likely get pursuit driving training as well, and then they might be able to go after the cars that jet.  Then they could at least follow the m/v until local law enforcement arrives.  Some border runners are not raging maniacs, they are just clueless dolts that can't follow directions. 
I would also scratch the summer student program.  I always thought that was a bad idea.