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CDN Hostage James Loney Rescued by SAS in Iraq

Bruce Monkhouse said:
...and of course, once again it all falls back to that group of appointed hackmen/women [ no no, the other group ;)] of the supreme court potentially CHANGING the laws brought in by our elected politicians.......while democracy weeps.

Bruce, I think you are forgetting the most powerful legal tool in Canada which has been proven to stop crime in its tracks:

THE STERN JUDICIAL REBUKE

OOOOO...nothing more terrifying than a dour look and a strongly worded lecture from a middle aged white guy to sort out the bad guys. 

What?  The rest of you think I'm kidding?  (sarcastic, yes)  Go check out the arrogance in a court room near you some time and see how stuck on themselves these people are.  Watch the criminal asshat nod in mock contrition, then follow them out of the court room and listen to them laugh their asses off and use a mock Judges voice "the next time I see you in my court, blah, blah, blah".  Yeah.  The next time you see them in your court you will be just as useless as you were this time.  Judges actually think that criminals really give a crap about their opinion.  Amazing, but true. 
And we are supposed to trust them with the fabric of our society.
 
OK.  Other than being "HELD", there are no other similarities. 

On on side we have 'detainees' being held according to rules of law, on the other side we have 'hostages' held for ransom, with no guarantees of freedom or even escaping with their lives.  On one side we can see the legal system at work, and on the other we can see torture, starvation, death by 'rusty knife', mutilation of body, etc.  There are very obvious differences between being held and facing legal imprisonment for life, and being held and facing decapitation at the hands of Muslim Fundamentalists.

Yes, I would say that the differences are quite drastic in their scope, between the Islamic 'Terrorists' and the Western 'police' forces and agencies.  (NATO Forces, US Forces, etc would be considered as part of "Western 'police' forces".)
 
Lesser Evil...

Secondly
Personally I think Treason should come back as a capital offence.


Lastly - I think the Gitmo (and alledged Eastern European) prison is self defeating.  IF these people have committed crimes they should have been sentenced -- if they have not all we have done by incarcerating them is increase their dislike/hatred of us so they will do something anti-coalition if/when they are released.




 
Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

Ex-hostage shuns poppy's symbolism
James Loney's controversial stance challenged at U of G lecture

Laura Thompson, Guelph Mercury, 11 Nov 06
Article Permalink - Media Analysis of Rescue Op (113KB .pdf)

Despite his gratitude to elite British troops for rescuing him from his captors in
Iraq, James Loney says he can't wear a poppy on Remembrance Day.

"They (military forces) believe in what they're doing, and more than that,
they're risking their lives. . . . That is an amazing gift," he told a University
of Guelph audience yesterday.

"And that's what we are trying to remember and think about on Nov. 11.

"But having said that, I still can't wear a poppy."

His statement, coming on the eve of Remembrance Day, was timely
and controversial.

After his hour-long talk at the U of G's Peter Clark hall, a couple of
members of the audience stood up to explain the importance of pinning
the red flower on one's lapel.

For most, it's a symbol of the Remembrance Day maxim -- lest we
forget. It's also a small way to recognize the sacrifice of veterans.

But for Loney, the poppy represents something entirely different. It
represents military preparedness to engage in war.

"It says we have to be ready for the next time," he said. "Vigilance."

Loney and two other members of Christian Peacemaker Teams were
rescued from an abandoned house near Baghdad on March 23.

The pacifists, who were in Iraq to learn about human rights abuses
and bring attention to the plight of Iraqis, had been kidnapped and
held hostage since Nov. 26, 2005.

A fourth hostage, American Tom Fox, had already been executed. His
body was found on March 9 in Baghdad.

Loney told the Guelph audience that during his roughly four months as
a hostage, he came to see the room he was held in as a tomb.

But that feeling didn't dissipate when soldiers rescued him and his two
fellow pacifists.

Loney said he was moved from his captors' makeshift prison into a
tank, which brought him to an American base, also host to coalition
forces, in Baghdad.

"I felt like I had moved from one tomb into another tomb," he said.
"I didn't feel free from the world of the gun until I got out of the RCMP
car (in Canada) and into my own home," he said.

In his address, Loney conceded the irony that he and his fellow
Christian Peacemaker Teams hostages were rescued by British
troops -- members of the same military force he has spent his life
opposing.

"My standing here right now is something of a paradox," he said.
"Our captivity was resolved by British Special Forces.

"I'm profoundly sad it was the war machine, really, that was able
to resolve the crisis in the end."

In the 118 days he was held captive in Iraq, Loney thought
constantly of escape. He played out exit strategies in his head,
imagining different ways to outsmart his captors.

He thought of trying to smash an object over one of their heads,
like they do in the movies. But being a pacifist, he dismissed the idea.

Instead, he prayed to stay grounded in the present moment while
he tried to understand his kidnappers' motives.

He also worked through the fear, anger and boredom he felt most
days.

It was never easy, but there were moments of reprieve, like when
he and the other hostages watched Hollywood action films with
their abductors.

The plots were always the same -- good guys versus bad guys.
The abductors cheered the good guys on. That's how they
perceived themselves.

Following his return to Canada on March 26, Loney stayed
for two weeks with family in Sault Ste. Marie, where he was
born and raised.

After that, he returned to Toronto with his partner, Dan Hunt,
who stayed silent during Loney's captivity. Family members
did not reveal Loney is gay out of fear for his safety.

"Here I am. I'm free today. It's very possible if there hadn't
been a military rescue I would have been killed," he told the
U of G audience.

Still, Loney said the experience made him realize the "tomb"
in which he was held captive belonged not to rescuers nor his

captors.

"The tomb is really violence itself," he said. "That is the logic
of violence. You have to go all the way, because when you start, it's

kill or be killed. It's dominate or be dominated. And you can't stop."

And so for Loney, it's the poppy or peace. He chooses peace and
wears a Christian Peacekeeper Teams button instead.

It's his choice not to wear a poppy, said Maurice Ferris, president
of the Royal Canadian Legion Branch 234, adding that Loney
misinterprets its meaning.

"The poppy is the symbol of remembrance, to remember people
who gave their lives," the veteran said.

"When you look at terrorism, pacifism doesn't work. He found
out firsthand."
 
Some people just get the idea of the poppy.
Some people learn the hard way.
And... sadly.. some people just don't learn (even after the hardway)


Too bad for him.  He is sad because military intervention saved his life?
No.. he's sad because it proved his values and beliefs failed him and
yet he still won't admit it.

That's what is sad.   

(of course... the poppy isn't pro war.. its pro remembrance)


 
What I find interesting in this and other coverage of the chap in question is how, while captive, he wrestled with the desire to be escape (especially when the guards were lapsing in their duties) with the discomfort at being a pacifist having to use force to break away.  At least he had some honour in also thinking (if media accounts are to be believed) that if he got away, his remaining buddies would probably face bigger problems.

I think the Legion gentleman said it best:  "When you look at terrorism, pacifism doesn't work. He found
out firsthand."
 
And to think some brave men risked thier lives to save his.

Brave men who have lives and families of thier own, put all that on the line to save the life of a man they had never met, and that man now won't honour the memories of thousands more before them who sacrificed thier lives doing similar duties.

>:(
 
Our military is fighting and dying so people can express personal opinions about war. Our military and foreign militaries rescued the hostages in Iraq to give them a new lease on life. And his thick head is still unable to see that if it weren't for our militaries doing what they are doing now... he would not have the freedom to think what he does..he also would not have a life.
 
I do not even have to finish, reading what he had to say, and I honestly do not want to. Maybe he should spend some time and read the files from the Nazi Camps and what happened to those people! If it was not for the millions of men and women that gave their lives, not just in WW2 but other wars, he would not be here today to say what he was saying.

My 6 yr old daughter Felicia, wore a Poppy this Nov 11th and laid a wreath at the Cenetaph for her Great Grandfather. At her young age, she understands more about what that means than he ever will!

Rebecca

Oh yes, and if it was not for those Brave Soldiers that saved his @## when he was in Iraq, he would not be here to spread that verbal diarrhea!
 
James Loney said:
"I'm profoundly sad it was the war machine, really, that was able
to resolve the crisis in the end."

I defy anyone to name one crisis, that has already escalated into conflict, that has ended without the use of force.  Name one revolution, that helped free people, where there was no fighting.
Freedome has to be one by people willing to fight and die, not by people who want to talk.  'cause there are always people willing to kill for what they believe in.
As much as these people (Pacifists) have good intentions, they take their lives into their own hands more so than soldiers, but do it with naivete. They believe no one will harm them if they preach peace and don't defend it.

The people they think they're trying to help and fix with words know nothing but violence, and as much as we believe violence isn't an answer, they don't share that oppinion. Besides that, they already despise westerners and have vowed, to their beliefs, to kill the 'infidels', so going to them with talk is like walking into a Lions den after it has been starving for a week, after you've been soaking in stake sauce and marinade, and expecting the Lion to cuddle up to you an purr and not eat you.

Had I been at this 'disscussion' at U of G (and I wish I was), I would have simply asked what his goals were, if he had reached any of them, and was it worth the torment and loss of life.  Then I'd compare that to the positive outcomes of WW1 and 2 thanks to the efforts and sacrifices of soldiers in the face of tyrany and oppression.... or how about peace being reached in Bosnia after a generation of fighting... or how about Kosovo.  I could go on.

Which leads me to issue number two with this well intentioned fool; I defy him to state that he and his fellow pacifists have not benifited directly from past conflicts and military interventions. (besides the rescue...which is Ironic.)
I would like him to say that the world would have been better off with Hitler at the helm.  I would like him to say that womens rights, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and the right to go to school are unimportant to the people in Iraq and Afghanistan.  I would also like him to say that genocide is alright in the Balkans and Africa, simply because peaceful intervention isn't and wasn't possible... What would he have done? Protested as a dictator incinerated hundreds of thousands of people because of their beliefs? He would have joined them. And I'm sure he would have been hanged or decapitated if he tried to reason with Sadam... He got a minor taste of the hard life and the struggle for freedom and decided to insult the very people who not only provide him freedom at home, but saved him abroad. For shame.

The poppy isn't for war, its for who gave us peace. For who was willing to die to defend our freedom.

When ever I read something like this, or hear about people like this, I feel nothing but sadness. I think about my recent experience and weep for friends I've lost in the persuit of a cause we felt was just; peace and freedom.  All I can think is that I hope one day the people of Afghanistan and Iraq (and everywhere else in the world) can have this much freedom to be able to slag the very people who helped them...

Sorry I turn every post into a rant.
 
Try not to let asshats like this get you worked up.  Personally, I feel that it makes all soldiers look better to have an ungrateful jagoff like this chiming away.  That we can do what we do despite the love and appreciation of all of the people we do it for speaks to the professionalism that is the hallmark of the Canadian soldier. 
Nobody hoists proctologists on their shoulders either, but we still count on them to do the crap jobs.  (pun intended  ;) )
 
Agreed. The US Special Forces has it right - "Quiet Professionalism".

We will never change the minds of those who have their minds closed. We are better off with the knowledge that we are the ones who permit them to have these opinions. I, for one, would rather be counted amongst those who do what is needed to allow people to try what they think is right, than be counted amongst those who just say "It's not my fight."
 
Trinity said:
No.. he's sad because it proved his values and beliefs failed him and yet he still won't admit it.

Bang on Trinity, bang on.
 
This ungrateful bastard thinks HE has a paradox in his hands? How about the sorry souls who risked their lives to save him, only to be slapped in the face by him? I know he must have gasped in horror, and pleaded with the forces who rescued him NOT to take him out of this torment, to wait until his captors decided to throw down their arms and resolve this peacefully, so that he could be satisfied that his presence there was warranted in the first place. To think that men and women in the service give their lives for sorry bastards like this makes me sick somewhat, and yet, it is what they do. It really is a no-win situation, considering the very freedoms given these individuals are abused, and taken for granted. His rescuers should have turned to him, said "Sorry for the disturbance, sir", and marched right out on his ass. DAMN this makes me mad, and yet, for some reason, it's the ONLY way it can be. If he didn't have the freedom to bitch and gripe about all this, then all the sacrifices made by our people would be for nought. It would be nice, if not a bit Utopian, to think that EVERYONE who received a favour, let alone a second chance at life, would be grateful for it. My blod is boiling, yet somehow, I know our servicemen and women are succeeding, by the fact that he is ABLE to complain about all this. Wow.
 
There are some people out there who are so set in their values and beliefs that they loose all perception on how their actions affect others. "I can do no harm because I am right" the calling card of the wrong. And on a side note, I thought the poppy is one of the most powerfull anti-war symbols ever. For most Canadians it is as powerfull as "Nie Wieder" is for most Germans.

I wish him well,  he isn't doing anyone other than himself any harm.  Maybe one day he'll understand,  hopefully soon.
 
Do you guys know that within 30 minutes of being captured, this pansy was left unguarded and unshackled, all alone in the building???
 
2023 said:
Do you guys know that within 30 minutes of being captured, this pansy was left unguarded and unshackled, all alone in the building???

Really? If you have an open-source link, I'd appreciate seeing it.  If not, PM me.

Like I said earlier, what makes me shake my head is his conflict between "I want to be free" and "I'd have to use even a little bit of force to be free"....
 
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