CDN/US Covid-related political discussion

[Bruce Monkhouse]

And maybe a million appointments?

Or does that not fit your preconceived notion?

 

[brihard]

I’m curious how many of those vaccines are Astra Zeneca, and currently mostly restricted from use?

 

[FJAG]

I've got to admit, I'm getting somewhat peeved and I actually have an appointment to be vaccinated next week.

On the other hand, the US administered more than 4 million doses in the last 24 hours while here in Middlesex county and London combined there are only five vaccination clinics and (as of last Monday) two pharmacies administering vaccine for some 450,000 folks.

 

[Altair]

And maybe a million appointments?

Or does that not fit your preconceived notion?

Of course.

Please, do it as slowly as possible with every vaccine having an appointment into the future rather than vaccinating everyone as quickly as possible now.

Not like there is a emergency situation right now. Must not be like those Albertans who are vaccinating every Tom dick and Harry as fast as possible and using most of their stockpile before they get their resupply.

In Ontario we trust.

 

[Altair]

I've got to admit, I'm getting somewhat peeved and I actually have an appointment to be vaccinated next week.

On the other hand, the US administered more than 4 million doses in the last 24 hours while here in Middlesex county and London combined there are only five vaccination clinics and (as of last Monday) two pharmacies administering vaccine for some 450,000 folks.

Ontario vaccinated 57 thousand people today.

Quebec did 47 thousand.

Sad.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

We set up an appointment system for a reason and a damn good reason. Not Ontario fault the Federal Govt is so woefully inept we had to steal from 3rd world countries.

And it is sad...if they had been able to get a decent confirmation of actual doses coming.
See woeful...

 

[Altair]

We set up an appointment system for a reason and a damn good reason. Not Ontario fault the Federal Govt is so woefully inept we had to steal from 3rd world countries.

Blame the Feds all you like, but if Quebec and Alberta are well ahead using the same system, and same metrics, it's probably not them.

 

[brihard]

If we as a province have a million vaccines in freezers and out 57k in arms yesterday, that’s a huge fail. Even allowing for it as a ‘slow’ day, there’s no justification for having two weeks’ worth stockpiled. Get the goddamned needles into arms. They’re letting perfect be the enemy of good enough. This is one of those “better a good plan, immediately and violently executed, than a perfect plan too late” circumstances.

 

[FJAG]

Ontario vaccinated 57 thousand people today.

Quebec did 47 thousand.

Sad.

I wasn't knocking Ontario so much but was considering my county as representative of Canada on a whole. If the CBC's data can be believed, Canada's one dose rate now averages 14.43% while Ontario's stands at 14.27, Quebec's at 17.36, Alta at 12.4 and NS at 8.36. Meanwhile the UK is at 47.1% (but most of Europe is just a bit behind Canada in the 10-13% area) and the US at 30.7% and with 17.5 fully two dose vaccinated (Canada at 1.85%)

We clearly on a par with the highly bureaucratic European community when it comes to acquiring and distributing these vaccines and fall well behind our British and American cousins. Hard to believe that the British health system is outperforming us.

 

[Altair]

I wasn't knocking Ontario so much but was considering my county as representative of Canada on a whole. If the CBC's data can be believed, Canada's one dose rate now averages 14.43% while Ontario's stands at 14.27, Quebec's at 17.36, Alta at 12.4 and NS at 8.36. Meanwhile the UK is at 47.1% (but most of Europe is just a bit behind Canada in the 10-13% area) and the US at 30.7% and with 17.5 fully two dose vaccinated (Canada at 1.85%)

We clearly on a par with the highly bureaucratic European community when it comes to acquiring and distributing these vaccines and fall well behind our British and American cousins. Hard to believe that the British health system is outperforming us.

UK is producing the AZ in massive numbers, USA is producing the Pfizer and Moderna in massive numbers.

I hope we as a country learn, and take it to heart, we need to have a domestic capability for things like vaccinations.

If this means nationalizing a pharma manufacturer, do it.

If it means subsidizing a pharma manufacturer, do it.

Because when it comes to vaccine nationalism we are going to get the short end of the stick.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

If we as a province have a million vaccines in freezers and out 57k in arms yesterday, that’s a huge fail. Even allowing for it as a ‘slow’ day, there’s no justification for having two weeks’ worth stockpiled. Get the goddamned needles into arms. They’re letting perfect be the enemy of good enough. This is one of those “better a good plan, immediately and violently executed, than a perfect plan too late” circumstances.

Are you suggesting folks who made appointments according to things like transportation, essential work hours, day care are just outta luck so that stay at home people can just walk right up and grab your shot?

 

[Altair]

If we as a province have a million vaccines in freezers and out 57k in arms yesterday, that’s a huge fail. Even allowing for it as a ‘slow’ day, there’s no justification for having two weeks’ worth stockpiled. Get the goddamned needles into arms. They’re letting perfect be the enemy of good enough. This is one of those “better a good plan, immediately and violently executed, than a perfect plan too late” circumstances.

Ontario had 985k yesterday and doled out 57k so 928k.

BC did 69k.

Ontario has administered 71 percent of their vaccines.

QC is at 74 percent.

BC is at 86 percent.

AB is at 77 percent.

I don't want Ontario to reinvent the wheel.

I just wish they would stop moaning about supply when they cannot handle their current supply and just copy their neighbors.

 

[Altair]

Are you suggesting folks who made appointments according to things like transportation, essential work hours, day care are just outta luck so that stay at home people can just walk right up and grab your shot?

I'm suggesting that whatever Alberta is doing, or Quebec, or British Columbia, Ontario just adopt that.

 

[brihard]

Are you suggesting folks who made appointments according to things like transportation, essential work hours, day care are just outta luck so that stay at home people can just walk right up and grab your shot?

Shots in arms. As fast as supply allows. Between family doctors, paramedics, pharmacists, nurses, veterinarians, there are a ton of people who can, in these exigent circumstances, administer vaccines. We save our ICUs by maximizing innoculation and disrupting transmission chains. Close schools for three days and offer a shot to every teacher and EA who wants one. Roll ambulances to jails and precincts and offer shots to every cop or CO coming off shift. Do the same for grocery stores, pharmacies, warehouses, and communal residences. Offer and fund a day’s paid vaccine leave, and obligate employers to release employees for a day for the purpose of getting a shot.

What we cannot do is dick around and pretend that this is a time to be fair to each individual and in doing so chop in half our ability to immunize the population in a timely manner. The Feds sucked at getting supplies in initially, but in the case of the province of Ontario that is no longer the choke point.

Every empty freezer is a federal problem, every shot in an arm a provincial success. Every vial in a freezer is a federal success and a provincial failure. We aren’t hanging on to these things so they appreciate in value. Qualified healthcare practitioners are clamoring to be allowed to assist in the immunization campaign. Time for the province to do their bit now that the vaccines have arrived. <60k shot in a day in Ontario is a sick joke.

 

[FJAG]

I'm suggesting that whatever Alberta is doing, or Quebec, or British Columbia, Ontario just adopt that.

The numbers I looked at above didn't say that Alberta or BC are doing better than Ontario in getting shots into arms. Both of those administered less vaccine percentage wise than Ontario. That Ontario has some more stock tells me that they could do better but not that there's much to learn from those two provinces.

I'm 100% on board that we can and should do better. I just don't see your examples as shining stars. Nationally we are all muddling around the same percentages give or take one or two. I just don't think that the variations from province to province are showing any statistically relevant numbers at this point in time as we're just starting to come out of a supply deficit. Just as an example I know some of the folks behind the Manitoba vaccination campaign. They're good folks but that province is trailing everyone else except N.S.

I think what is really the issue here with the stock numbers is the way the provinces vary slightly on how to deal with reserving sufficient stocks for second doses for "at risk populations". The recommendations on second doses from manufacturers and health agencies changes almost daily and it's not hard to understand that there might be variations in policies between jurisdictions.

 

[Good2Golf]

I'm suggesting that whatever Alberta is doing, or Quebec, or British Columbia, Ontario just adopt that.

So AB has 12.4% population at one-shot and Ontario has 14.3% by CBC’s numbers.

So Altair’s horrible Ontario actually has a greater percentage of citizens vaccinated at this point than the Alberta he crows about. So Ontario needs to be 1.9% worse to be as good as the better?

 

[brihard]

So AB has 12.4% population at one-shot and Ontario has 14.3% by CBC’s numbers.

So Altair’s horrible Ontario actually has a greater percentage of citizens vaccinated at this point than the Alberta he crows about. So Ontario needs to be 1.9% worse to be as good as the better?

I don’t think measuring provinces against each other is particularly useful. The benchmark should be what has been delivered within a province versus what has arrived and could have been delivered. Evaluate Alberta within Alberta, Ontario within Ontario. The provinces should be a conduit to immunize as fast as the feds can deliver shots. Attempts at precision and specificity in delivery appear to be slowing things unduly.

 

[Altair]

So AB has 12.4% population at one-shot and Ontario has 14.3% by CBC’s numbers.

So Altair’s horrible Ontario actually has a greater percentage of citizens vaccinated at this point than the Alberta he crows about. So Ontario needs to be 1.9% worse to be as good as the better?

Alberta has gotten less vaccines per percentage of population.

10 percent of the vaccines handed out versus 11.5 percent of the national population.

So due to this, they have a harder time keeping up with Ontario, who has received 40 percent of the vaccines for their 39 percent of the population.

All said, seeing as Alberta is doing a much better job actually getting most of their jabs in arms instead of stockpiling them for...whatever reason Ontario is doing it, you should maybe tone down your mocking. It isn't working. I love checking these numbers. I could do this all day.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Every jail in Ontario has been offered in house shots for guards and inmates. Large percentage of inmates would not partake.
The fact you don't know that means to me that there is media phugery going on to make things seem worse.

 

[Edward Campbell]

We clearly on a par with the highly bureaucratic European community when it comes to acquiring and distributing these vaccines and fall well behind our British and American cousins. Hard to believe that the British health system is outperforming us.

Not really hard at all. The OECD has been publishing data on health care for years ~ OECD Health Statistics 2020 - OECD ~ and Canada has, consistently, been amongst the countries with more expensive health care systems but, also, near the very bottom of the heap when it comes to health care quality as the OECD defines "outcomes."

A solid majority of Canadians believes that Canada's health care system is "world-class" and so on, while, much to the intense satisfaction of most people on the über progressive left, Americans are dying on the street because they have no health insurance or something. A solid majority of Canadians are delusional ... on both counts.

The Canada Health Act imposes a single-payer system that is unsustainable. Almost every OECD country has universal health care (I"m not sure about Chile and Columbia) but only one has a law that forbids private funding. Every year, here in Canada, elected leaders must decide how to fund an ever-growing demand for health services. They have two choices: 1. raise taxes ~ something that can be political suicide; or 2. cut funding for e.g. education or transportation. They can also beg Ottawa to increase transfers. They cannot tell people to buy additional health insurance as the people of Australia, Belgium, the Czech Republic, Denmark and Estonia all do. There might be a reason why no other OECD country ever copied Canada's health care system.

What Tommy Douglas promised, back in the 1950s, was relief from "catastrophic medical bills." No one, I hope, wants to go back to the days ~ and they really existed ~ when the state of the family purse decided if a doctor could be called or home remedies would have to suffice. But few people expected to walk out of a doctor's office without having to have paid at least something for the service rendered. The Canada Health Act takes Karl Marx's dictum of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" to its logical extreme.