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CF-105 Arrow (not army related, but still CF related.)

canada just didn't have the infrastructure at the time to build from scratch interceptors for 12million each when the second best thing was going for 250k. and as mentioned, nobody really wanted to buy the finished product. not just interceptors really, look at the other projects such as the ross rifle, bobcat transport, ram tank... we're a middle power with limitations. the avro just didn't quite work out for us. i really don't get why people get so emotional over the whole avro thing. no less pride to the people who developed it or canada as a nation, as we've done some hella impressive things...but realizing our place in the world and acting in our best interest is better than acting off emotion and misinterpretation.

as for the plans at the bottom of lake ontario that somebody mentioned...almost. airframe tests were conducted over lake ontario, with the models crashing at the end of the flight. there were 11 such tests, and 9 were recovered IIRC. still looking for the last 2.

i've also read somewhere that america offered money to finance the cf105, but canada said no. also that the government didn't order for all prototypes and plans to be destroyed, but that the head of AV Roe did that out of spite. haven't been able to verify them though.
also, the CBC program was a docudrama that blended history with bullshit, like dramas tend to do. on a topic like this, don't trust any one source, especially if it's canadian.
 
... so you mean there isn't an Arrow parked out in a farmer's shed somewhere is Sask? (or was that Manitoba?)
 
I don't see how there could be one parked anywhere. I thought that all of them wereaccounted for and  destroyed except for what parts have been found.
 
(a folk legend - not that anyone believes it)
(or do they?)
 
I am glad that the arrow died when it did. If it had come on in full production and found its way to fronline sqn's I am sure 100% there would have been growing pains or some quirk in the design that would have made it a "flawd" design.
Or more to the fact, we as a government would have used it for so long that the glory days of it would have been forgotten and it would have the same bad press as todays Herc or the Sae King. Sometimes its good to kill something in order for its legend to live on..... :cdn:
 
mover1 said:
I am glad that the arrow died when it did. If it had come on in full production and found its way to fronline sqn's I am sure 100% there would have been growing pains or some quirk in the design that would have made it a "flawd" design.
Or more to the fact, we as a government would have used it for so long that the glory days of it would have been forgotten and it would have the same bad press as todays Herc or the Sae King. Sometimes its good to kill something in order for its legend to live on..... :cdn:
So we should have scrapped the Herc years ago too?
 
I think hes saying that it would just be another piece of kit in the Air Force just like the Hurks are now, struggling to find a replacement before they're all grounded.
 
Vodka said:
canada just didn't have the infrastructure at the time to build from scratch interceptors for 12million each when the second best thing was going for 250k. and as mentioned, nobody really wanted to buy the finished product. not just interceptors really, look at the other projects such as the ross rifle, bobcat transport, ram tank... we're a middle power with limitations. the avro just didn't quite work out for us. i really don't get why people get so emotional over the whole avro thing. no less pride to the people who developed it or canada as a nation, as we've done some hella impressive things...but realizing our place in the world and acting in our best interest is better than acting off emotion and misinterpretation.

as for the plans at the bottom of lake ontario that somebody mentioned...almost. airframe tests were conducted over lake ontario, with the models crashing at the end of the flight. there were 11 such tests, and 9 were recovered IIRC. still looking for the last 2.

i've also read somewhere that america offered money to finance the cf105, but canada said no. also that the government didn't order for all prototypes and plans to be destroyed, but that the head of AV Roe did that out of spite. haven't been able to verify them though.
also, the CBC program was a docudrama that blended history with bullshit, like dramas tend to do. on a topic like this, don't trust any one source, especially if it's canadian.

Speaking of "misinterpretation"...

The final cost was $3.75 million per aircraft, not $12 million. The Chief Aeronautical Engineer for the RCAF compared the cost of the CF-105 to the F-106, F-102, and F-101, saying in a March 1958 memo, "Arrow costs compare favourably with the somewhat less sophisticated aircraft in the U.S.A.... [Q]uantity production of of an aircraft as complex as the Arrow can be undertaken in Canada at a cost comparable to that for production of a like aircraft in the U.S.A." (Campagna, "Storms of Controversy," 86).

The government (RCAF) owned all of the Arrows, including the prototype. It was the RCAF that ordered the aircraft, engines, and plans to be destroyed. There are plenty of primary sources that indicate that the destruction orders came from the government and it was not initiated by Avro.
 
project for CF105 was on the Govt's nickel from start to finish.... like most big R&D projects. The Gov't could therefore do what it wanted with the thing..... and they did.
 
Guy. E said:
I don't see how there could be one parked anywhere. I thought that all of them wereaccounted for and  destroyed except for what parts have been found.

While I am not insisting that one still exists somewhere in hiding, not all of the Arrows have been accounted for. There have been no government records yet discovered that indicate that all the Arrows were destroyed, and RL25202 disappeared from the tarmac before destruction was complete...

The parts that have been found (i.e. RL25206's cockpit, Iroquois engine, etc) were intentionally saved by the RCAF, along with some plans, manuals, and other paper work.
 
Form here:

http://www.exn.ca/flight/avro_arrow/story.asp?id=1999062451

The loss of almost every tangible remain of the Avro Arrow program has had an impact on the psyches of Arrow aficionados worthy of a Freudian epithet. Denied access to the material remnants of the craft by the cruel events of the ‘50s, the few remains that are left have undergone an almost fetishistic sanctification. For a long time, apart from a few odds and ends, these consisted of little more than a nose-cone and landing gear of an Arrow, saved for scientific posterity, and a lone Iroquois engine, all housed at the National Aviation Museum. But the search for the true Arrow has followed a few different paths.
The models

When the Arrow program underwent its final agonies of destruction, the engines, airplanes, blueprints and parts were all destroyed. But beneath the surface of Lake Ontario laid remnants that couldn’t be reached – nine large test models of the Arrows, made of solid magnesium alloy, and launched piggyback-style on a Nike missile.

At this writing, two of these national treasures have been reported found though one of them seems to be a Nike missile. Their acquisition provides a bittersweet complement to the scanty legacy the Arrow left behind. Two different amateur searchers located the models on the silty bottom of the lake, and want the models to go to aviation museums. For the moment the models remain on the bottom.

   
One of the Arrow models mounted on a Nike booster.   

The solid-alloy models were integral to the designing of a supersonic jet for which production was demanded immediately -- without the usual intermediary prototype-building step. They were one-eighth size, about three metres long with a two metre wingspan, and were equipped with 23 sensors that would relay information about surface airflow back to the test team. Hitchhiking on the Nike missiles, they could reach speeds of Mach 2.6, something like 3,000 km/hour. Within a few seconds of take-off, the models’ flights would come to an end, and they would disappear beneath the waters of Lake Ontario.

In all, 11 models were launched, but two of them were fired off from Wallops Island, Virginia, into the Atlantic Ocean. Though salt water would have corroded those two models years ago, the other nine at the bottom of Lake Ontario have ostensibly been well-preserved by the cold fresh water.

Full-bodied Resurrection

The quest for something that at least looks convincing is an aspiration of the Toronto Aviation Museum, an all-volunteer organization. They hope to build a life-sized faithful replica of the plane. Arrow enthusiast P. Connors describes it in this excerpt from his website:


"The new Arrow will be the exact size of the original aircraft and will be taxiable for outdoor exhibitions. The replica will represent Arrow 251203 being aircraft number RL 203, specifically painted in white and day-glow colours with the Canadian ensign impressed on the tail. The replica aircraft is being manufactured of a stainless steel frame with aluminum skin. The replica is over seventy feet long and has a wingspan of fifty feet and an overall height of twenty-three feet. Estimated finished weight is expected to be in the range of 12,000 pounds."

At the same time, another quest is being led by a group calling itself The Arrow Alliance. They seek to rebuild a replica of the Arrow that will incorporate its revolutionary advances. The idea of building a flying model is seen by many Arrow experts as virtually impossible, as the enormous and costly machines that milled and manufactured the Arrow’s unusual parts were completely destroyed along with the rest of the artifacts. A life-sized replica that can roll around the tarmac at exhibitions is a more likely goal.

Engines and Parts

Many were surprised last year when two Pratt and Whitney J-75 engines residing at Ottawa’s National Research Council were brought to the public's attention. The engines, which were used to power the first five Arrow prototypes, were to have been replaced by the stronger Iroquois engines, then under construction at the Avro Orenda plant. But in the end they were to be the Arrow’s only flying mates, as the order to halt the project came only a day after the Iroquois-fitted Arrow models were declared sky-worthy.

The search for parts continues. A variety of legends exists about the efforts to save parts of the Arrow, its plans, blue prints and associated documents, and the elaborate machines that were created to manufacture the plane. A picture emerges of indignant Avro employees going to great lengths to secret away artifacts, or of rival technology companies managing to get their hands on parts. If these tales are true, Arrow enthusiasts believe, perhaps Arrow parts can be found under heavy coats of dust in a variety of places.

For insights into how the mysterious circumstances around the disposal of the Arrow has created an aura of intrigue right up to the present day, read Mike McAllister's 'Where they lie, nobody knows.'

The Arrow that got away

The legend with the most mythic proportions is the enduring idea that one single Arrow was spared the welders arc, and remains in a secret location today. There are few shreds of hope, even for true believers. Legend has it that late one night, after cancellation, part of the Avro plant was cordoned off and covered trucks were seen leaving. To date, no records confirming that all the Arrows were destroyed have been uncovered. One of the latest books on the Arrow, Storms of Controversy, notes that in some of the photos of the Arrows on ‘death row’, Arrow RL25202 is nowhere to be seen. Records attest that it was being fitted with a new missile system around the time of cancellation. However, Palmiro Campagna, the author of Storms, is of the opinion that any spiriting away of an Arrow would have been highly unlikely, and in any case would have had to be approved by the Arrow Termination Coordination team that had been set up to oversee the disposition of Arrow remains. If an Arrow model were to have escaped, Campagna suggests, it would more likely be found in a military installation than a farmer’s field.


Are they're any old hangers up north that almost nobody knows about?
 
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             /      |   |     \
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      . /  |  |_||  |  ||_|   \ .
     / O|        |    |        |O \
  ./_______|  |    | |_______\.
                   ^|^
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This is the best I could do.
 
quebecrunner said:
So, we have a long history of buying second hand instead of creating hour own equipment... And a long history of americans interference in our government decision...
creating our own is expensive and there has been lots and lots of criticism about designing something that has already been built......
- damned if you do and damned if you don't.
 
Vodka said:
canada just didn't have the infrastructure at the time to build from scratch interceptors for 12million each when the second best thing was going for 250k. and as mentioned, nobody really wanted to buy the finished product. not just interceptors really, look at the other projects such as the ross rifle, bobcat transport, ram tank... we're a middle power with limitations. the avro just didn't quite work out for us. i really don't get why people get so emotional over the whole avro thing. no less pride to the people who developed it or canada as a nation, as we've done some hella impressive things...but realizing our place in the world and acting in our best interest is better than acting off emotion and misinterpretation.

as for the plans at the bottom of lake ontario that somebody mentioned...almost. airframe tests were conducted over lake ontario, with the models crashing at the end of the flight. there were 11 such tests, and 9 were recovered IIRC. still looking for the last 2.

i've also read somewhere that america offered money to finance the cf105, but canada said no. also that the government didn't order for all prototypes and plans to be destroyed, but that the head of AV Roe did that out of spite. haven't been able to verify them though.
also, the CBC program was a docudrama that blended history with bullshit, like dramas tend to do. on a topic like this, don't trust any one source, especially if it's canadian.


Actually, the finished production Arrows would have been about 3.5million per complete production unit. And the Americans offered $500,000/unit that we built, claiming that it was to support us helping defend North America. We did accept that proposal from them, but it didn't matter because the government scrapped the idea.

I'm sure glad the rest of Canada doesn't think like you do or we'd all be under-achievers!!! I probably wouldn't have made it into the military! Or found a job! So you just want us to sit back and relax, just do "average" on everything and not try our best? I suppose we should just sit on our hands in Afghanistan too, since we're "only a middle power" and can't really change anything or influence anybody??? Hmm... Doesn't sound Canadian to me!

Anyway....

Arrow is dead, won't come back so really I do agree that unfortunately there is no point in emotionalizing the subject, but part of that project was part of Canada's heart at that time it seems, forever torn out by the governmental politics and policies of the time.
 
Back to some of the why the Arrow was cancelled.

Consider, the Canadian Government can afford only one option of two, either Bomarc, or the Arrow.

We get told that if we do not buy the Bomarcs and install them in our northern areas, the US will be installing them just south of the border.

The Bomarc, with its nuclear warhead has a range of about 200 miles (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong). 

90% of Canada's population is within 200 miles of the Can/US border.

If we did not buy the Bomarc ourselves, and they had been launched from locations in the US, we would have had 90% of our population at risk from the missiles.

I don't see that we had much choice.

NS

 
It may have to be taken in the context of the technology of the time.

The CF-105 would have made a good interceptor, unloaded its conventional or
whatever ordanance in the air, and return home.  However, the scenario of an
earlier Cold War attack would have involved a massive amount of high altitude
Russian bombers. 

The scenario may show bombers leaving Russian airspace from various bases
and locations converging more or less over Canadian territory to attack mainly
US and some Canadian targets.  Its interesting to speculate how Canadian and/or
US CF-105s could have dealt with the number of target groups.

Locating nuclear-tipped BOMARCs in locations above or at the US border given
the politcal situation at the time may have been the most efficient to destroy
multiple bombers from a US point of view.  The nuclear air-blast from numerous
BOMARCs would destroy or disrupt attacking bomber groups. 

Perhaps the CF-105 could have been integrated into European defense as the Cold War
dragged on.  Seems like the F-104 was the interceptor of choice for many years.
 
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