CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter

[Ex-Dragoon]

Sarcasm isn't against the Guidelines, posing is.   :

 

[In the light of things]

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

 

[Popurhedoff]

I was a young Corporal in Cold lake when we got the the first two "Twin Tailed Plastic FAG Jets"  ....  now before some of the Trolls get excited... FAG = Fighter Air Group.

FAK do I feel old now... Lets see  I have worked on 60 year old DC-3's, 50 year old CT-133 Silverstars, 40 year old Sea Kings, and a few other types... so an aircraft less than a quarter century is like.... "Brand New"

... "Strike"  keep quiet about the age... or I'll have to throw you over my knee and spank you ... thats if I remember how? >

Cheers
Pop

 

[Strike]

... "Strike"  keep quiet about the age... or I'll have to throw you over my knee and spank you ... thats if I remember how?

Yup, I can't wait until tomorrow.  Watch your 6 'cause you may be getting a swift kick from that direction. :dontpanic:

 

[daniel h.]

Just thought I'd bring this up... why don't we just go back on that promise?   I can't see people getting mad at us for opening up a new market in Canada, especially since with the 25-30 year cut-backs we've endured it would take us about 50 years to undo the damage with the size/budget of our country considered.   Although the new market would open up many new jobs and add to the economy, and since it is a military fueled market, most likely, the government may send the taxes it collects from that market back into the military.   Oh wait I forgot, we have to maintain our stereotype as a half-neutral, nice, promise keeping, do-good, military that only peacekeeps country.   My mistake.

And with the "military that only peacekeeps country", but that I'm really offended.   Only 1/8 of our military is in peacekeeping operations.

I honestly think many western world elites back in the 1950s and onward thought we would be living under a world government reinforced by the U.S. military under the United Nations.

John Diefenbaker actually spoke of INCREASING our sovereignty, and was totally out of step with the globalization happening at the time. Then he signed the defence-sharing agreement and that 99-year things, and Lester Pearson signed the Auto Pact (which wasn't that bad in retrospect) as well as FTA/NAFTA later on.

Why would they PROMISE not to build another fighter for 99 years? Either cowardice or part of a deal I guess--would be a good research assignment to find out the mentality of the thinking....after all, it was the cold war era...and then there is that whole Avro Arrow thing.

Regarding why we don't build another fighter--there is no point with our current foreign policy. We wouldn't need enough to make it feasible, and there is already a glut of fighters for export. We wouldn't want to export it anyway if it were the best or something.

If you want to ask the why question, why are we the only country who allows itself to be foreign-owned up to 100% in key industries? Even the Hudson's Bay Company is being circled by the sharks...all western nations are somewhat globalist, but we let anyone buy us up. We have been pawns in the globalist shell game, but the future could be brighter.

 

[geo]

Daniel,
Hate to give you the bad news but, the Hudson's Bay Company of the past is not the HBC of the present. The old trading stores are alive and doing well under the name of "The Northwest Company" AKA "northern Stores".
HBC stores of yore were stripped of their name by the Thompson family some 15 years ago.... but the illusion continues that these HBC stores trace back their history to 1670... BS.... they are tracing back someone else's history.
BTW - NWC is owned in good part by the Ont & MB Teachers' pension fund.

Whups - sorry for the tangent...........

Back to our regularly scheduled discussion

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Why would they PROMISE not to build another fighter for 99 years?

Umm... could someone kindly provide some sort of proof/evidence that a Canadian government has actually signed an agreement to this effect?

Thanks in advance!

 

[daniel h.]

Daniel,
Hate to give you the bad news but, the Hudson's Bay Company of the past is not the HBC of the present. The old trading stores are alive and doing well under the name of "The Northwest Company" AKA "northern Stores".
HBC stores of yore were stripped of their name by the Thompson family some 15 years ago.... but the illusion continues that these HBC stores trace back their history to 1670... BS.... they are tracing back someone else's history.
BTW - NWC is owned in good part by the Ont & MB Teachers' pension fund.

Whups - sorry for the tangent...........

Back to our regularly scheduled discussion

1 - Why would the Thompson's do this...to reinvigorate the business?

2 - I WAS aware that Hudson's Bay Co. no longer used many Canadian suppliers and has essentially turned itself into a de facts version of SEARS--much like Simpson's and Eaton's which actually sold out to SEARS.

This being said, the takeover is more symbolic than anything else, and also symbolizes how our government and business class care little about countries...at least their own.

 

[daniel h.]

Umm... could someone kindly provide some sort of proof/evidence that a Canadian government has actually signed an agreement to this effect?

Thanks in advance!

I'm positive it existed and it likely is still on the books, though I'm sure it could be abrogated....it's probably forgotten by many in government.

It's hard to find proof of this, I'll post it when I find it.

 

[In the light of things]

Regarding why we don't build another fighter--there is no point with our current foreign policy. We wouldn't need enough to make it feasible, and there is already a glut of fighters for export. We wouldn't want to export it anyway if it were the best or something.

1.  We don't really have any very good fighters for export.
2.  The company wouldn't have to specialize in one fighter, it could build all sorts of vehicles based on what CF personel need/want.  It could be a whole new sector of the military controlled by and regulated by the CF.
3.  Not wanting to export it doesn't matter, other countries don't export their technology 'till it's old and outdated either.  Then we can sell them to some poor country.  (even though most of the time we end up being the poor country, maybe there's someone in the same boat [not a submarine joke]).

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

new thought. since we seem to be getting new transport planes  or at least there is some serious talking going on now.  my idea is all new pilots who want to fly new fighters , have to buy  their own and spare parts, as a cost saving measure, have own plane, will hire.

all joking aside when the F18 are on the way  out, in 2015  or so, there will be a whole new line of fighters to pick from including European, American and  maybe Japanese, or South American . they all looking to build so who knows what  we will get.

but it will have the following
dual engines ( must have accordding to the DND buying powers)
some Canadian content
long life of refits...always a Canadian plan from the start
must last longer then the service career of the first pilots, so grand kids can fly them too, aka sea kings
must not be updated in time for action, see CF 18s and not able to comm with other NATO forces or use smart weapons
must have massive cost overs
no lend lease jobs.....does not work

but it will have wings, a cock pit, and wheels, bullets and bombs  extra $$$$

 

[daniel h.]

1.   We don't really have any very good fighters for export.
2.   The company wouldn't have to specialize in one fighter, it could build all sorts of vehicles based on what CF personel need/want.   It could be a whole new sector of the military controlled by and regulated by the CF.
3.   Not wanting to export it doesn't matter, other countries don't export their technology 'till it's old and outdated either.   Then we can sell them to some poor country.   (even though most of the time we end up being the poor country, maybe there's someone in the same boat [not a submarine joke]).

1. I meant other countries have planes for export--not Canada.

3. There are some exceptions. Russia sold some planes to China like mig-29s IIRC and Su-27s which aren't their best but are something. China is now trying to improve them.

--The U.S. exports stil lvery cometent planes like F-16s and F-15s.

--Sweden is exporting their still-new Saab Gripen to South Africa IIRC.

--France is trying to export their new Rafale.

 

[daniel h.]

new thought. since we seem to be getting new transport planes   or at least there is some serious talking going on now.   my idea is all new pilots who want to fly new fighters , have to buy   their own and spare parts, as a cost saving measure, have own plane, will hire.

all joking aside when the F18 are on the way   out, in 2015   or so, there will be a whole new line of fighters to pick from including European, American and   maybe Japanese, or South American . they all looking to build so who knows what   we will get.

but it will have the following
dual engines ( must have accordding to the DND buying powers)
some Canadian content
long life of refits...always a Canadian plan from the start
must last longer then the service career of the first pilots, so grand kids can fly them too, aka sea kings
must not be updated in time for action, see CF 18s and not able to comm with other NATO forces or use smart weapons
must have massive cost overs
no lend lease jobs.....does not work

but it will have wings, a **** pit, and wheels, bullets and bombs   extra $$$$

Let's not buy Japanese or South American please....I don't care how European the Brazilian Embraer engineers are. (They are largely immigrants from American, Japan and Europe.)

 

[geo]

FGH,
You are being unfair about the 18s... up till their service in Aviano - Kossovo service, their comms with the other NATO countries (aka the US) was fine... it's just the delays in getting the upgrades processed that caused problems at that point.

with respect to the rest.... we've been screwed by the best.

The US, the UK and some would argue... Canada as well....

BOHICA!

 

[big bad john]

This Backgrounder was posted today and i thought that it might answer some questions from the newer members of the site.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1601

CF-18 Modernization
BG–06.025 - August 31, 2006

A total of 80 CF-18 Hornet aircraft are undergoing a thorough mid-life upgrade to ensure that the Canadian Forces have a modern and interoperable fighter fleet until 2017. Various modernization projects are combined in two distinct phases of the overall aircraft modernization program.

Of the 138 CF-18s procured between 1982 and 1988, 97 aircraft remain in flying status today: 17 were lost to accidents, three were sold and the remaining aircraft have reached the end of useful life and will be declared surplus. Of the surplus aircraft, several will be retained for spare parts, some will be used for technician training or will be displayed on pedestals or in museums (i.e. aircraft number 901 has been inducted into the Canada Aviation Museum) and the others likely will be offered up for sale. At this time, none of these aircraft has formally been declared surplus.

The role of the CF-18
In order to maintain the capability to protect Canadian sovereignty, to contribute to the collective defence of North America within the NORAD agreement, and to provide a credible contribution to UN, NATO, and coalition-led operations, Canada’s fighter force needs to be modernized.

The CF-18 is a proven and durable fighter aircraft. Today, Canadian Air Force CF-18s, their pilots, and aircrews are deployed with NORAD, ready to respond to threats to North America.

The CF-18 is a modern and capable fighter aircraft with a secure communications capability, which was, however, not fully inter-operable with our allies. With the completion of Phase I of the Incremental Modernization Project in 2006, the CF-18 will achieve secure communication inter-operability.

Modernizing the CF-18 fleet will support an extended operational viability to at least 2017.

Phase I of modernization
This first phase of CF-18 modernization is a cornerstone project that entails the procurement and installation of a new radar, “Have-Quick” jam-resistant radios, combined interrogator/ transponders, stores management systems, mission computers and embedded global positioning systems/inertial navigation systems.

The upgrade is based on a U.S. Navy Engineering Change Proposal (ECP 583) and is the most cost effective, minimum-risk method to satisfy the CF-18 modernization requirements. The systems have been tested extensively and flown operationally.

Earlier this month, the Commander of 1 Canadian Air Division, in Winnipeg, granted full operational capability for the Phase I Modernized CF-18 based on the successful achievement of project implementation plan milestones and demonstration of specific capabilities.

The Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) was also procured by Canada in parallel with Phase I of the CF-18 Modernization Project.

Phase II of modernization
Phase II will outfit Canada’s CF-18s with the latest in technologically advanced equipment.

The fighter jets will be equipped with a secure data and communications link that allow CF-18 crews to stay in constant contact with other jets, ground stations and airborne warning and control systems (AWACS) to maintain awareness in their constantly evolving environment.

New state-of-the-art colour display panels will provide pilots with improved access to flight data and communications. The colour displays will significantly improve the pilots’ ability to refine the reams of data they receive. Pilots’ helmets will be outfitted with new visors that display readings from the instrument panel, so that they can maintain visual contact with a target without having to look down into the cockpit to monitor flight instruments. A new ejection seat, in support of this new helmet display system, will also be procured under Phase II. The aircraft will also be outfitted with a new missile countermeasures chaff/flare dispenser. Two prototypes are currently being modified at the Naval Air Warfare Center, in China Lake, California. Production is planned to begin in October 2006 at the L3 Communications MAS facilities in Mirabel, Quebec and will last for three years.

Off-aircraft projects
In addition to the two modernization phases for CF-18 aircraft, other off-aircraft projects are in various stages of development or implementation include: the Air Combat Manoeuvring Instrumentation System; the Night-Vision Imagery System; the Advanced Distributed Combat Training System; the Advanced Multi-Role Infrared Sensor; a new Defensive Electronics Warfare Defence Suite; and Advanced Precision-Guided Munitions.

Modernization program costs
The entire modernization program, phased over eight years, will create employment and technology development opportunities for Canadians. Although the overall cost of the project has not been finalized, approvals to date total approximately $2.3-billion.

Boeing is the prime contactor for both phases of the CF-18 Modernization project. L-3 Communications has been sub-contracted by Boeing to carry out the Phase I and Phase II installations at its Mirabel plant outside Montreal.

Canada’s is not the only Air Force conducting a wholesale upgrade to the Hornet. The Royal Australian Air Force, the United States Marine Corps and the United States Navy are also extending the life of their F-18s.

The new multi-purpose displays were developed as a cooperative project between Canada and Australia, resulting in a significant cost savings for Canada. Since the Royal Australian Air Force had already contracted Boeing for work on their F/A-18 A & B aircraft, selecting the same prime contractor minimized project risk. Boeing sub-contracted the development and production of these new colour displays to L3 Communications Electronic Systems (ES) of Toronto, Ontario.

CF-18 Modernization is a fiscally responsible and financially feasible method of continuing to provide Canada with a safe, reliable and effective fighter aircraft fleet. It will provide the Canadian Forces with up-to-date equipment, increase Air Force interoperability with our allies and enhance CF flexibility to meet future national and global missions.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Cool but what about a replacement project? Any one thinking ahead yet?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I wonder who we sold the 3 to?

 

[Good2Golf]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/44917.0.html

 

[PMars]

I wonder who we sold the 3 to?

One went to Finland where it is being used in a rebuild project. As to the other two? Good question.

I don't see mention on replacing/repairing the centre barrel section. Was this part of the project or is it being contemplated?

 

[cobbler]

The new multi-purpose displays were developed as a cooperative project between Canada and Australia, resulting in a significant cost savings for Canada. 

But unfortunatly, not for Australia.