CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter

[AlexanderM]

Has ASH even flown yet? Last I heard it was a collection of features in a PowerPoint that Boeing is trying to pass off as an operational aircraft.

This indicates yes, but only to an extent, as I believe these are add on components to an existing aircraft, such as the conformal tanks. The redesign which includes the radar reduction would have to be a new aircraft built to the specifications of the redesign, which likely has not yet occurred.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/navy-pleased-with-quotadvancedquot-super-hornet-tests-wants-more-397927/

 

[MilEME09]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFb2ObuhVS4

this aircraft was the test bed in 2013, and the most recent article I could find is here

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-resumes-advanced-super-hornet-push-as-us-navy-425221/

 

[SupersonicMax]

It also has stealth features and a kind of sensor fusion, as well as substantially improved avionics.

Can you elaborate of where you got this?  It certainly doesn't match my experience.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Can you elaborate of where you got this?  It certainly doesn't match my experience.

These are claims made by Boeing  in the December 2013-January 2014 edition of Frontiers (a Boeing internal publication that you can Google) which seems to substantiate this. What is more, the AHS version appears to also be available as a "conversion" to E/F models. So the aircraft can be built as new, or retrofit to the existing fleets. There does appear to be more than one Advanced Super Hornet flying, and looking again at the Boeing website the aircraft has passed quite a number of milestones in many if not all aspects.  Newer production models of the EA-18 may already incorporate many of the AHS features such as conformal fuel tanks.
In any event, it is still 1980's technology, late 90's ideas about range, early 2000's ideas about reducing RCS, early 2010 software that is not very flexible and an airframe/engine design with quite a few moving (wearable) parts to maintain. If McDonnell upgraded its design of the VooDoo in the 1970's would Canada have bought it 1982? Missions and circumstances change, so do aircraft designs but at some point a product (even a newly manufactured product) is end of concept and outclassed. Sort of like BlackBerry-Apple..... 

 

[AlexanderM]

This earlier article talks about a combat radius of over 700nm?

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2013-11-15/boeing-pitches-advanced-super-hornet-future-threats

 

[MarkOttawa]

Colin P: Did that yesterday 
http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/35100/post-1438944.html#msg1438944

See Prof. Steve Saideman, Carleton U.:

Plane Speculation
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/06/08/stephen-saideman-plane-speculation/

More on the Prof. (an American and now a Canadian):
http://stevesaideman.com/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[PuckChaser]

This earlier article talks about a combat radius of over 700nm?

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2013-11-15/boeing-pitches-advanced-super-hornet-future-threats

700nm with external, yet conformal tanks. F-35 pushes 600nm on just internal fuel.

 

[AlexanderM]

700nm with external, yet conformal tanks. F-35 pushes 600nm on just internal fuel.

I'm still not convinced that the SH has a combat radius of 700nm with the conformal tanks, that's why I put the question mark in there. A number of sources indicate that the combat radius of the SH is 390nm, then add the conformal tanks and it extends to 510nm, yet in the article that was posted about the pilot who had flown both he talks about the SH having way more fuel, which would indicated greater range, which would make sense in relation to the article saying 700nm. So I'm a bit confused which is no big deal.

Look, we aren't buying all F-35's, JT won't allow it, yet if they walk away from the F-35 they could get hit with legal action or a trade board ruling costing Canada billions. So I expect they will say, what is the fewest number we can purchase to avoid the nasty business and then we end up with a split fleet, like it or not. I really have no idea what the final outcome will be but it appears we are buying some Super Hornets, so let's get the best ones possible.

 

[PuckChaser]

So what you're saying is, the Liberals are using DND money and the CAF as political props, and will screw us for 35 years with a split fleet to buy a few anti-F35 votes from idiots who don't know what a strike fighter is from a biplane.

 

[AlexanderM]

So what you're saying is, the Liberals are using DND money and the CAF as political props, and will screw us for 35 years with a split fleet to buy a few anti-F35 votes from idiots who don't know what a strike fighter is from a biplane.

Exactly!

 

[dapaterson]

And this differs from other governments in the past how, precisely?

 

[MarkOttawa]

Shameful:

F-35 ‘ready to go,’ company says as U.S. Air Force prepares to declare stealth fighter combat-ready

The company behind the F-35 is pushing back against Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s assertion the stealth fighter “does not work,” even as the U.S. Air Force says the planes should be ready for war in the fall.

Retired lieutenant-general Charles Bouchard, chief executive of Lockheed Martin Canada, said it was “disheartening” to hear Trudeau’s comment on Tuesday, in which the prime minister blasted the F-35 as a plane that “does not work and is far from working.”

Bouchard did not want to respond directly to the prime minister, but told the Citizen in an interview: “This aircraft is ready to go. This aircraft is doing the job today...
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/f-35-ready-to-go-company-says-as-u-s-air-force-prepares-to-declare-stealth-fighter-combat-ready

Reality--needs Block 3F software:

...
[F-35 joint programme director Lt Gen Christopher] Bogdan and [Pentagon acquisition chief Frank] Kendall also admitted that the 23 F-35s required for initial operational test and evaluation (IOT&E) won’t be ready in time to begin weapons testing in late-2017, as planned.

Those aircraft must be upgraded to the “full warfighting capability” known as Block 3F – the final software and hardware iteration required at the end of F-35 development.

Testing had been due to commence by “late summer or early fall of 2017” but that is now looking more likely to start in the “January and February of 2018 timeframe”...
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/f-35-block-3f-test-schedule-slips-as-lot-9-10-contra-425713/

Sigh.  Any Canadian journos--or politicians--going to notice?

Mark
Ottawa

 

[PuckChaser]

"Combat-ready" and "full warfighting capability" are 2 completely different things, Mark.

Also, that National Post article had a completely terrible graphic, unit cost for F-35 is $192M? Lot 7 LRIP is $98M plus engine. Even if that engine is $25M, its still only $125M, not $192M (all in USD). Lot 8 LRIP is down to $94M plus engine. Meanwhile, Super Hornet price keeps going up as Boeing tries to add technology to compete with F-35, and keep its Super Hornet line from closing in 2017. Also, F-35 has 11 hardpoints, 4 internal and 7 external, not 6.

The Journos are watching, and they're pushing the Liberal narrative.

 

[estoguy]

The Journos are watching, and they're pushing the Liberal narrative.
[/quote]

This is absolutely true... it's pretty disgusting how much the media has been kissing up to JT.  They even still kiss up to Wynne as well, and I have no idea why - these two mindless jerks should be the first ones against the wall when the revolution comes.

So... honestly, what is the smart play here, putting all the political crap aside - should Canada be buying the F-35?  Or something else?

I imagine if we had of looked at replacement sooner, would the SH have been a good choice?  I want to think it would have been, butI'm neither military or a pilot, so I'd love to here a more learned perspective.

 

[PuckChaser]

The Danes took 14 months to run a full competition and make a decision. We could have a contract awarded in less than 2 years, an open competition and fighters starting delivery in 2019/2020, even if they're F35s.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

The Journos are watching, and they're pushing the Liberal narrative.


This is absolutely true... it's pretty disgusting how much the media has been kissing up to JT.  They even still kiss up to Wynne as well, and I have no idea why - these two mindless jerks should be the first ones against the wall when the revolution comes.

So... honestly, what is the smart play here, putting all the political crap aside - should Canada be buying the F-35?  Or something else?

I imagine if we had of looked at replacement sooner, would the SH have been a good choice?  I want to think it would have been, butI'm neither military or a pilot, so I'd love to here a more learned perspective.

The smart play, in my opinion, would be for the government to make a comprehensive white paper indicating what sorts of capabilities it wants the military to maintain and then buy the systems that meet those capabilities, whether they be fighters, fighter/bombers, GBAD, AH, or whatever.

Until that happens than it's essentially a  :argument: between people who either like one system better or have interests in one system vice anything substantive.

 

[estoguy]

Bird_Gunner:  Sounds reasonable to me...

So what is with all the hand wringing then?  :facepalm:  Why do our governments feel this need to drag everything out?  Jesus, the current F-18 airframes are pretty much my age...  :

 

[YZT580]

JT does not give a rats ****s about the Canadian voter.  He has one his majority and is in the catbird's seat for the next four years.  He hates anything that Harper did and he especially hates anything that might give the armed forces a leg up.  He is not doing this because it will buy him votes in 4 years.  He is doing this because of whatever it is internally that caused him to speak out against the acquisition in the first place.  And yes Harper screwed up by not placing the order but, even if he had, Trudeau would have found some reason to cancel just like his party did with the helicopters.  Harper was not expecting to lose the election.  I suspect that by now he would have initiated the competition with deliveries to start about 2022: just in time to replace the upgraded CF18's.  But the liberals have been stalling on that one too.  They have yet to initiate the re-build so yes they can honestly say that time is running out on our current hornets.  |I am very disappointed in the MOD.  Given his record from Afghanistan I thought he had a little more integrity.  Sigh

 

[Altair]

JT does not give a rats ****s about the Canadian voter.  He has one his majority and is in the catbird's seat for the next four years.  He hates anything that Harper did and he especially hates anything that might give the armed forces a leg up.  He is not doing this because it will buy him votes in 4 years.  He is doing this because of whatever it is internally that caused him to speak out against the acquisition in the first place.  And yes Harper screwed up by not placing the order but, even if he had, Trudeau would have found some reason to cancel just like his party did with the helicopters.  Harper was not expecting to lose the election.  I suspect that by now he would have initiated the competition with deliveries to start about 2022: just in time to replace the upgraded CF18's.  But the liberals have been stalling on that one too.  They have yet to initiate the re-build so yes they can honestly say that time is running out on our current hornets.  |I am very disappointed in the MOD.  Given his record from Afghanistan I thought he had a little more integrity.  Sigh

I doubt the prime minister cancels the order of F35s and needs to pay billions in cancelation fees.

That said, the liberals flat out promised during the campaign to not buy the F 35, if you expected the mod to go against an election promise you are naive at best.

I'm not disappointed that the liberals aren't buying the f35. They promised that. I'm disappointed that they are buying the SH especially without a open competition between the 3 other fighters, excluding the f35.

 

[ringo]

I see no harm at all in a split fleet, would far rather see Canada purchase 2 squadrons of fighters know followed my 2 squadrons of a different type 15 years down the road and avoid the block obsolescence the fleet currently faces.
Remember when CF-18 tasking was increased due USAF problems with F-15 and F-16 engines, a case of over standardization. 
Does the RCAF have any interest in Meteor air to air missile?
Hopefully they buy at least 36 a/c with ASEA radar and conformal fuel tanks.
Maybe current CF-18's can cascade to the Snowbirds if enough SH's are ordered, and SH's can go to Snowbirds when SH replacement is delivered. 
With this government CAF should take whatever they can get as fast as they can get it.
2% GDP DND budget is the real issue, with that kind of budget the CAF troubles would be over.