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CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter

Of course if you bought 40 SH right now and postponed the buy of 40 F-35's till the end of the production run, you start getting the offset in airframe age you should have. In a perfect world, have half your fleet 15-20 years old and the other half new or coming online. This would postpone the F-35 buy to someone else's government, keep us in to the contracts, reduce the initial outlay of funds, gets us more aircraft and staggers the age of the airframes. Plus we would be getting the best F-35's with all the improvements.
 
The pylons were initially legacy-like (actually, they were the exact same) but a single weapons configuration (out of hundreds) created weapons-to-weapons contact after release, leading to a redesign of the pylons to avoid this...  Despite the performance cost and the wing re-design cost...
 
WingsofFury said:
There are times when certain air frames have taken part in say EX Red Flags out of Nellis or Alaska and whether there were any 1v1 scenarios done during those time would provide some feedback to Allied forces.  I do recall a time when German Typhoon pilots did some 1v1 scenarios against Raptors...

1v1s don't really show you much in terms of capabilities.  Operating together at an unrestricted level is what will show you really what a platform brings to the table, but the US, rightfully, doesn't like doing this.
 
SupersonicMax said:
The pylons were initially legacy-like (actually, they were the exact same) but a single weapons configuration (out of hundreds) created weapons-to-weapons contact after release, leading to a redesign of the pylons to avoid this...  Despite the performance cost and the wing re-design cost...
So don't use the one single configuration and get back the performance. Yikes!! I can't believe that a decision like that would made made over one single configuration.
 
We can get whatever pylons we want, as long as we have the money for it. "Canadianizing" has never gone poorly before for CAF procurements....
 
SupersonicMax said:
1v1s don't really show you much in terms of capabilities.  Operating together at an unrestricted level is what will show you really what a platform brings to the table, but the US, rightfully, doesn't like doing this.

I appreciate you sharing your knowledge, thanks.
 
AlexanderM, what a great idea!  If only DoD/USN had thought about that! 

::)

SSM deliberately did not tell you the configuration in question, and for good reason.  As well, if people thought that vehicle certification was a challenge, the world of "stores clearance" makes vehicle certification look easy than teaching a baby to drool...point is, operators are okay with taking the drag hit to use a stable configuration.

Regards
G2G
 
Here is an interesting concept that the Kuwait government is doing trading in their old F-18s for new F-18 Super Hornets. -
Super Hornet Fighter Family MYP-III: 2010-2017 Contracts

Nov 30, 2016 00:50 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff 
November 30/16: Just ten days after the US State Department cleared the sale of 40 warplanes to Kuwait, the Gulf monarchy wants more. Major General Lafi al-Azmi, chief of the military’s Armament and Procurement Authority, said that Kuwait plans to purchase external link external link 28 more F-18 Super Hornets as well as return a number of outdated F-18s in their inventory as part of the purchase deal. Details of the sale will only be revealed once it is officially signed

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/super-hornet-fighter-family-myp-iii-2010-2013-contracts-06392/


 
Majority of CF-18s will fly beyond 'certified safe life': internal report

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/fighter-jets-extension-risk-1.3876365

Extending CF-18s past 2025 called a 'high-risk solution, from both a technical and operational perspective'

The Liberal government's plan to keep a number of its CF-18 fighters flying through the 2020s — possibly up to 2032 — is a "high-risk" and "costly" option, according to an internal government report obtained by CBC News.

The technical engineering assessment was written for the material group at National Defence in the run-up to the former Conservative government's decision two years ago to extend the life of the front-line jets until 2025.

It raises questions about the serviceability and survivability of the aging fighters at the crucial transition time when the Liberal government hopes to bring a replacement on line.

The report takes on fresh relevance in light of the government's decision last week to postpone holding an open and transparent competition for a new fighter. Bidding is not expected to start until next year after the new defence policy has been released and could take up to five years.

The analysis has the Opposition Conservatives wondering why the Liberal government is not proceeding directly to the competition it promised in the last election.



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The Liberal government's plan to keep a number of its CF-18 fighters flying through the 2020s — possibly up to 2032 — is a "high-risk" and "costly" option, according to an internal government report obtained by CBC News.

The technical engineering assessment was written for the material group at National Defence in the run-up to the former Conservative government's decision two years ago to extend the life of the front-line jets until 2025.

It raises questions about the serviceability and survivability of the aging fighters at the crucial transition time when the Liberal government hopes to bring a replacement on line.

The report takes on fresh relevance in light of the government's decision last week to postpone holding an open and transparent competition for a new fighter. Bidding is not expected to start until next year after the new defence policy has been released and could take up to five years.

The analysis has the Opposition Conservatives wondering why the Liberal government is not proceeding directly to the competition it promised in the last election.

National Defence says it intends to buy up to 18 Boeing Super Hornets as a stopgap measure until a brand-new fleet arrives.

The analysis is also significant considering this week's fatal crash of a CF-18 at a training range near Canadian Forces Base Cold Lake in Alberta.



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The Liberal government's plan to keep a number of its CF-18 fighters flying through the 2020s — possibly up to 2032 — is a "high-risk" and "costly" option, according to an internal government report obtained by CBC News.

The technical engineering assessment was written for the material group at National Defence in the run-up to the former Conservative government's decision two years ago to extend the life of the front-line jets until 2025.

It raises questions about the serviceability and survivability of the aging fighters at the crucial transition time when the Liberal government hopes to bring a replacement on line.

The report takes on fresh relevance in light of the government's decision last week to postpone holding an open and transparent competition for a new fighter. Bidding is not expected to start until next year after the new defence policy has been released and could take up to five years.

The analysis has the Opposition Conservatives wondering why the Liberal government is not proceeding directly to the competition it promised in the last election.

    New Liberal policy means there aren't enough fighter jets to go around
    Boeing met federal officials 7 times as often as Lockheed Martin in lead-up to fighter deal
    Canada's fighter jets running out of airframe life, according to data tabled in Parliament

National Defence says it intends to buy up to 18 Boeing Super Hornets as a stopgap measure until a brand-new fleet arrives.

The analysis is also significant considering this week's fatal crash of a CF-18 at a training range near Canadian Forces Base Cold Lake in Alberta.

Sajjan on Super Hornets 0:50

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan last week said permanent replacements for the '80s-vintage jets "will be fully operational in the late 2020s."

That is further into the future than the former Conservative government had planned.

"That means we must continue to fly the legacy CF-18s throughout the 2020s, no matter what," Sajjan said during the news conference announcing the government's decision.
'A high-risk solution'

The Conservatives had planned to refurbish the fighters to keep them operational until 2025, something the internal analysis says results in "a reasonably low to moderate technical and operational risk" in light of the fact the U.S. navy intends to keep flying some of its F-18s and Super Hornets during the same timeframe.

It is after 2025 that the significant concern emerges.

The CF-18s would require a major overhaul — known as a Control Point 3 life extension — to remain operational after that date.

"This option is a high-risk solution, from both a technical and operational perspective," says the 13-page, unredacted evaluation.

"A majority of the fleet (50 aircraft) would need to be flown beyond the currently certified safe life."

The assessment goes on to list the components that would need replacing, and the list is extensive.

"A large and costly procurement of new wings and flight controls would be required to support this effort, as the structural lives of these components would expire for many of the fleet's aircraft."
Shortage of spare parts, weapons

The report also notes, among other things, that the fighter jets' transponders, which identify them as friend or foe to other aircraft, will have to be upgraded.

The avionics system will be considered outdated by the early 2020s and won't meet U.S. requirements for encrypted communications, which threatens operations with the Americans and the North American Aerospace Defence Command (Norad).

"From an operational perspective, the fleet will be exposed to a more lethal threat environment," says the analysis. "In addition there will be decreased interoperability with newer aircraft flown by Canada's allies."

The further into the decade the fighters operate, the more concern there will be about access to weapons and spare parts, the report adds.
$400-million upgrade needed

In an interview with CBC News, Sajjan downplayed the analysis, saying the Liberals have conducted their own, more recent studies that give them comfort.

"The engineers have assured us the life extension can be done in high confidence and we can meet our needs," he said, adding that concern about the overall condition of the fleet is one of the things that drove the Liberals to recommend the interim purchase of Super Hornets.

"Yes, we can extend our fighters to 2025. After that time they will be slowly graduated out."

Conservative defence critic James Bezan said the Liberals are stalling.

"We know Denmark just did a competition in 11 months. Norway did theirs in about a year and a half. Japan did theirs in a year and 11 months," he said. The Liberals "could do an open and fair competition right now and get a plane faster than they can in five years' time."

The refurbishment to 2025 is estimated to cost $400 million, but Sajjan was unable to say how much more it will be to keep the fighters flying beyond that date.

Unpublished, internal defence estimates shown to CBC News suggest the total overhaul cost could rise to $1.3 billion depending on the upgrades selected by air force planners.

In the last election campaign, the Liberals promised to buy a cheaper fighter in an open competition and plow the savings back into rebuilding the navy.

With an interim purchase of Super Hornets and a life extension program, the government will be hard-pressed to find savings.

"Yes, we are investing more. This option costs more money, but this is the situation we were dealt with," said Sajjan.
 
Meanwhile in Finland:

US approves upgrade for Finnish Hornets

The US State Department has approved a possible Foreign Military Sale (FMS) to Finland for USD156 million of equipment and services in support of its ongoing Boeing F/A-18 Hornet mid-life upgrade (MLU) programme.

The approval, which was announced by the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) on 5 December, covers 90 Multifunctional Information Distribution System Joint Tactical Radio Systems (MIDS-JTRSs), as well as software services and contractor/US government technical support. As noted by the DSCA, the MIDS-JTRSs will improve the survivability and communications connectivity of the Finnish Air Force's legacy Hornet fighters.

Work will be conducted by Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, BAE North America, General Electric, Northrop Grumman, Rockwell Collins, ViaSat, and Data Link Solutions.

The Finnish Air Force currently fields 55 single-seat F/A-18C and seven twin-seat F/A-18D aircraft that it received in 1996 and 1995 respectively. When they were first acquired, Finland's Hornets were configured for air defence duties only due to a treaty that was signed between Helsinki and Moscow in Soviet times that prevented the country from operating bomber aircraft. However, by the time the aircraft came into service in 1996 the Soviet Union had ceased to exist, so the treaty was no longer in effect. As such, Finland has been progressively enhancing the capabilities of its F/A-18 fleet with an extensive MLU programme led by Patria.
http://www.janes.com/article/66018/us-approves-upgrade-for-finnish-hornets?hootPostID=988b750b94b3d482367e05a7281e3640

Somewhat relevant:

Facing the Bear: Nordics’ Fighter Force Greatly to Outnumber Canadian…
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2014/10/20/mark-collins-facing-the-bear-nordics-fighter-force-greatly-to-outnumber-canadian/

Mark
Ottawa
 
Cdn Blackshirt said:
Sorry if I missed it, but has anyone done any simulations of the contenders against the likely 2020-2035 threats?

I assume that classified information about the contenders has played a role in recent contests from which it is interesting to note that the F-35 has been the dominant competitor.

Candidly I would be much more comfortable fielding a smaller fleet of F-35's with some type of long endurance armed UAV for low intensity conflict than a larger fleet of F-18e, Gripen or Eurofighters if those are deemed to be "less capable" against Su-30 class, J-20 class, PAK-FA class fighters as well as S-400 class SAM threats.

Has anyone seen any assessments they can share?  Or provide summaries thereof?

Cheers, Matthew. :salute:

This is a very high level simulation, which is probably as good as you can get in the unclassified realm:

https://warisboring.com/don-t-think-the-f-35-can-fight-it-does-in-this-realistic-war-game-fc10706ba9f4#.460oc1ply
 
And while everyone's looking at the bright shiny FWSAR thing ...
An open competition to select a new fighter jet to replace Canada’s entire fleet of aging Boeing CF-18 Hornets could take up to five years to complete—well after the next federal election—according to a timetable disclosed by Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan.

Mr. Sajjan, while responding to questions about The Hill Times’ report this week that Canada’s defence department signed a new “decision memorandum” with the F-35 joint strike fighter office last March, said that Canada’s involvement in the F-35 project will not preclude the U.S. defence giant from putting its F-35 up against other competitors for the multi-billion-dollar Canadian procurement to replace the CF-18 fleet.

Lockheed Martin can still compete for the contract, just as another U.S. aerospace giant, Boeing Company, would also be able to take part in the bidding, despite being in negotiations with the Canadian government for the purchase of 18 of the company’s Super Hornet fighters as a short-term solution to fill the Royal Canadian Air Force’s capability gap, Mr. Sajjan said.

“We get that question of bias,” said Mr. Sajjan (Vancouver South, B.C.), adding that questions have been raised about both Boeing and Lockheed Martin. “The perception is there, but we are making a decision based on what we need for Canada.” ...
 
milnews.ca said:

Mr. Sajjan added that the government is going “through a process that’s going to have a very rigorous method of being able to test,” the aircraft options before making a selection.

Didn't they do that already with the F-35 being chosen as the best candidate? I wouldn't be surprised if the Liberals hold jet races to determine the eventual winner the way things are going.
 
Quick time appreciation:

Early 2017 - Competition begins
Early 2022 - Competition completed, results announced
Mid 2022 - Contract awarded (generous estimate, I doubt they'd get a contract signed in 3 months)
Mid 2025 - First replacement aircraft arrives in Canada
Sometime 2025 - CF-188 supposed to be retired
Mid/Late 2028 - FOC after last aircraft arrives

By manufacturing a capability gap now, and punting procurement down the road, the Liberals have now created a real capability gap when the replacement aircraft aren't arriving fast enough to pull 35-40 year old planes out of line Squadrons.
 
PuckChaser said:
By manufacturing a capability gap now, and punting procurement down the road, the Liberals have now created a real capability gap when the replacement aircraft aren't arriving fast enough to pull 35-40 year old planes out of line Squadrons.

Duh, that's what the 18 Super Hornets are supposed to solve.  ::)
 
Interesting comment on corrosion being more of an issue from sitting aircraft as opposed to active carrier aircraft http://www.scout.com/military/warrior/story/1766670-navy-weighs-sensor-weapons-f-18-upgrades
 
What about CF-18s and those used RAAF Hornets which will be around for some time?

USMC to upgrade Hornets with new AESA radar

The US Marine Corps (USMC) is to replace the radars of its Boeing F/A-18 legacy Hornets with a new active electronically scanned array (AESA) system.

A request for information (RFI) issued by the Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) on 20 March calls for a new AESA system to replace the incumbent Raytheon AN/APG-73 radar on the USMC’s fleet of F/A-18C/D aircraft.

“The AN/APG-73 has been subject to ongoing maintainability, supportability, and readiness issues,” the RFI noted, adding, “AESA solutions are required due to the increased reliability and sustainability requirements, as well as the associated capability improvements.”

According to NAVAIR, the contract will begin on 1 October of this year with retrofits commencing in the fourth quarter of 2020 and running through to the fourth quarter of 2022. A total of 98 AESAs are to be procured to cover seven fleet squadrons of 12 aircraft each plus 14 spare systems. In its list of requirements, NAVAIR states that the new AESA should require no changes to the current radar-aircraft interfaces.

As the incumbent radar provider, Raytheon is likely to pitch its Raytheon Advanced Capability Radar (RACR) that has been adapted from the AN/APG-79 as fitted to the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler, and is scaled to be compatible with the legacy Hornet and the Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon.

As the other prime radar provider to the US military, Northrop Grumman is expected to compete with its Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) that is also compatible with the legacy Hornet and F-16...
http://www.janes.com/article/78735/usmc-to-upgrade-hornets-with-new-aesa-radar

Mark
Ottawa
 
How will these compare with current CF-188s and with whatever we do with old RAAF Hornets?

Kuwait to upgrade legacy Hornets with new countermeasures

Kuwait is to upgrade its Boeing F/A-18C/D Hornet combat aircraft with defensive countermeasures to be delivered by the end of March 2021.

According to the US Department of Defense (DoD), Raytheon has been awarded USD32 million to deliver F/A-18 CD-108B/ALE-50(V) control, dispenser, decoy, countermeasures (commonly known as the Integrated Multi-Platform Launch Controller [IMPLC]), Lot 13 full-rate production for the government of Kuwait. In all 38 IMPLCs will be procured to equip the Kuwaiti Air Force’s (KAF’s) legacy Hornet fleet.

The contract, which is included in a USD34.6 million award that contains the induction and repair of IMPLC assets in support of the US Navy, was announced on 30 July...
https://www.janes.com/article/82098/kuwait-to-upgrade-legacy-hornets-with-new-countermeasures

Mark
Ottawa
 
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