CF Empty Hand Combat Time for Change?

[Cardstonkid]

I noticed in the Army Electronic Library that the hand to hand combat information is pretty much Tae Kwon Do done in Khaki.

I don't want to flame TKD, since there are some who can actually fight (they have to learn to keep their hands up and throw proper punches and leg kicks) but given that it is an art that has so little street credibility and limited full contact fighting credibility is there any movement to teach a more practical and functional hand to hand combat system?

I can offer up a few suggestions: Krav Magna, R.A.T. (simplified Jeet Kune Do) SPEARS (Tony Blauer)

Learning effective long range, clinch, and grappling strategy seems like a better use of training time then what is offered in the CF manual. I have seen news reports of CF members getting ready to deploy for peace keeping missions and them getting hand to hand combat training. They were standing in line doing downward blocks!!!!!ARRRGH!!! How to get your A## beat in one simple move!

Again I don't mean to put down or insult those who choose the recrational martial arts, I am just interested in hearing what you folks have to say on the subject.

 

[paracowboy]

the Close Quarter Battle Instructor Course goes just a little beyond the old stuff.

 

[boondocksaint]

Part of the problem also lies with how little we do 'in house' with keeping up those skills. We have limited instructors, and even more limited time usually. There are several former MMA in our unit ( 1 VP ) who often do what they can when they can.

It's a high fade skillset. I learned more about grappling from my C-9 gunner who placed 18th in the world a few years ago as an amateur wrestler. At just over 5ft tall, he could go through our entire platoon one at a time and pin all of us. Learn well young grasshopper

 

[paracowboy]

Part of the problem also lies with how little we do 'in house' with keeping up those skills. We have limited instructors, and even more limited time usually.

then, too, you have so many people afraid of Safety concerns, reluctant to risk injuries and potentially losing a badly needed person for teaching/training/CQ work parties...

 

[ArmyRick]

The army electronic library has the old CF unarmed combat system. The system currently in place is the CF Close Quarter Combat system. Its good to go. Do a search and you will find what else has been said on the subject.

Cheers, Armyrick (CQCI)

 

[orange.paint]

then, too, you have so many people afraid of Safety concerns, reluctant to risk injuries and potentially losing a badly needed person for teaching/training/CQ work parties...

And honestly I can see their point of view.I do see the need for unarmed combat,but find theres too many guys who go there and get carried away.Then someones walking around with a blown ACL/MCL,cause some guy was being a idiot.I may be biased and I'm sure there are great martial arts instructors in the various regiments,but from the few experiences I have had I will never sign up for another class.

I am not just some guy who went and tried it out.I hold a black stripe in kenpo (Chinese) and hold various medals (provincial only).Having went from a sensai/instructor like Mike Foley who has won many awards around the world including his two twin sons who are also IIRC European champs a few years back.I got out when I joined the army and have not found a kenpo dojo since.

I keep saying I'm going to take up another form sometime soon,but never seem to get around to it,been out of it for 7 years now and am very very rusty,hell I can't even remember half the kata's anymore.

But all in all where I have worked I have tried out the unarmed combat classes and have found it to be more along the lines of a person extending work rank,getting out of hand with full force,and have seen someone deliberately try to hurt someone.

But like Tae kwon do,kenpo is only slightly ahead in my opinion.Sweeping is allowed at competition and two clean hits on the ground.No chest protector,which I thought was gay first tkd competition I saw.A lot of punching and kicking,no eye gouging or kidney shots.

But worse case scenario go check it out at your unit,who knows you may have a very professional bunch of people who leave rank at the dojo door,and an instructor who isn't power happy and likes to hear himself talk about how much he knows,rather than help you perfect your form.

As I said I'm slightly biased,go check it out on your own.Worst case you'll get my opinion.

 

[Slim]

Hello all

I have a shodan (1st black Belt) in Tai-Jutsu and have gone thorugh the CF unarmed Combat course...What it showed me is that, apart from some dated techniques, (and some very good ones) you have to be very careful of who you're willing to train with....As was mentioned above self-control is not always practiced and the potential to get hurt is very real.

Cheers

 

[Bigmac]

    If you are looking for some variety in combat hand to hand fighting techniques here is a good link to try.

http://www.fightauthority.com/hand-to-hand-combat.php4

 

[Cardstonkid]

I think it is important to have live training, meaning as realistic as possible with non co-operative opponents (after the basics are learned of course) But this must be done with maximum use of safety gear and with good supervision. It is amazing to find out how much stuff does not work under real pressure from a real attacker. It sounds like the current system is much improved over what is shown in the AEL.

 

[Cardstonkid]

I have to be fair. TKD does not fair well in most full-contact fighting sports, BUT there is no reason that has to be so! TKD can be effective IF it is practiced at full power with maximum protective gear and against opponents that know how to kick and punch. There are some TKD folks who can really fight. Bas Rutten started out in TKD and he is a killer. Of course he trained in Mauy Thai, Boxing, and the grappling arts, but he gives a lot of credit to his TKD base. (of course I never bad mouth TKD around him  )

 

[Cardstonkid]

As you should

 

[paracowboy]

Remember as well that even though it has traditional roots, modern TKD is a military martial art, developed in the 20th c by Korean General Choi Hong Hi and is as much based on science and physics as it is on traditionalism. 

weeeelllll, there's some debate over that. If you look at the transition from ITF, to WTF, and trace the origins, there is a strong argument that TKD is derived right from Shotokan.

After the Japanese conquered Korea, they banned all indigenous martial arts, going so far so to murder instructors. When they began to conscript Korean nationals for the Imperial Army in order to facilitat the invasion of Manchuria, they began to teach Japanese (okay, I KNOW Shotokan is Okinawan, but go with it) martial arts to Korean conscripts, primarily judo and shotokan.

The first forms in ITF TKD (my system. Or at least the one that holds my heart) are virtually identical to the first forms of Shotokan. In the years following the War, Korea (naturally enough) wanted to distance themselves from the enforced "Japanization" of Korea, and that carried over to the martial arts.

TKD began to change. Some say it went back to Korean styles, others say it was arbitrarily changed to meet with a certain Korean general's preferences, and to differentiate itself from Karate. Personally, I don't care too much, either way. I find both versions of history fascinating, as well as the mindset that causes such revisionism, and I enjoyed the heck out of jumping around and kicking things. (Obviously, that's no longer an option.)

I was quite fortunate in that my TKD instructor was a tiny li'l Vietnamese dude who had a considerable amount of experience in not only other systems, but in life or death struggles in the rice paddies and back alleys of his nation during the conflicts in the '60s & '70s. His first focus was always on practical self-defence, with belts, and such a distant second. When he learned that a couple of us were intent on becoming soldiers and police officers, his focus on us, specifically was entirely on how to subdue a person, or just how to kill 'em.

I'm babbling now, aren't I? Chop Fuey does that to me. I'll shut up.

 

[Slim]

I'm babbling now, aren't I? Chop Fuey does that to me. I'll shut up.

I'm picturing Paracowboy in a Hong Kong Phoey Gi with a car hidden in a dumpster outside police headquarters, eavesdropping on the calls so he canbe there first to solve the problems and the asshats of the world with the famous Paracowboy throat punch!

Seriously now...there are so many different varieties of unarmed fighting systems in the world that I think we (the CF) would be very narrow minded to stick with just one or two when deciding what to adopt...We should really look around, variety is the spice of life...Besides there is a purely Canadian martial art that is more than adiquate to the task.

Slim
(now you see me...now you don't 8) )

 

[GrimRX]

.Besides there is a purely Canadian martial art that is more than adiquate to the task.

What?  Lifting the enemy's shirt over their heads and punching them in the kidneys?

 

[Slim]

What?  Lifting the enemy's shirt over their heads and punching them in the kidneys?

Bill Underwood Systems.

I have seen and experienced it with my own eyes. the stuff works, is not complicated, can be taught quickly and is easily retained...It also does not involve hockey.

GrimRX

If you don't have anything constructive to add then please restrain yourself. There are other threads where sarcasm is more welcome.

 

[GrimRX]

Bill Underwood Systems.

I have seen and experienced it with my own eyes. the stuff works, is not complicated, can be taught quickly and is easily retained...It also does not involve hockey.

GrimRX

If you don't have anything constructive to add then please restrain yourself. There are other threads where sarcasm is more welcome.

The first part of my post was a sincere question, as I had never heard of a purely Canadian Martial Art.  The second part was a joke; no sarcasm meant (I often use a sticking-out-tongue-smilie to denote joking in my personal correspondence).

 

[retiredgrunt45]

The U.S Marines train all their people "Hand to hand" Male and female. Heres a good link to check out of their training.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May2001/n05162001_200105161.html

Maybe now that were actually fighting a war, they'll bring back the hand to hand skills.

 

[brihard]

Bill Underwood Systems.

I have seen and experienced it with my own eyes. the stuff works, is not complicated, can be taught quickly and is easily retained...It also does not involve hockey.

GrimRX

If you don't have anything constructive to add then please restrain yourself. There are other threads where sarcasm is more welcome.

We got a demo on the Underwood system one night and were taught some very basic pressure point controls and a few other items. But the instructors showed us some cooler stuff between themselves. I believe the most striking was when one guy (in about a second and a half) went from kneeling on the ground, hands behind his back with a pistol to the back of his head to standing fifteen feet away from his erstwhile executor, with his newly appropriated pistol firmly in hand and aimed at the guy who'd been about to 'kill' him. All using simple rotation and leverage- aside from a mild shock at what had transpired, the 'aggressor' wasn't nursing a concussion or anything broken. We were also shown some very effective methods of breaking out of most any form of lock or of controlling a suspect.

I will not claim to be an expert on martial arts by any mean,s but the history of the Underwood system as I have looked it up is very solid, as is their client base among the military and law enforcement sector...

 

[jonoxford]

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1505869179648427725&q=hand+to+hand+combat

Check out this Russian Spetsnaz video on hand to hand combat. interesting to see something from the otherside every once in a while.

 

[Slim]

. I believe the most striking was when one guy (in about a second and a half) went from kneeling on the ground, hands behind his back with a pistol to the back of his head to standing fifteen feet away from his erstwhile executor, with his newly appropriated pistol firmly in hand and aimed at the guy who'd been about to 'kill' him.

That would be Robbie Cressman. The current 'owner' of the system.The nicest person in the world and someone I personally would not ever mess with. Robbie has done the same move to me...It can be...upsetting.

Cheers

Slim