CF Transformation & the Operational Commands (Merged)

[sheikyerbouti]

Gunner:

Is there planning in the works to address those critical manpower areas? Off the top of my head, some CFC papers I have read state that over 50% of the budget is currently spent on personnel costs. With such a high proportion of labour costs, does this indicate a Federal intent to promote drawdown of numbers on strength in order to open up the budget for future priorities?

If the problem is with retention why is there no incentivizing provided to the required personnel? Instead we have private contracting of support services and now instruction on an ongoing basis. It seems illogical to promote the idea of having your people leave, only to draw on them once again but only in a civilian role. Some examples which come to mind are private contracting of pilots for towing targets and private contracting of planes by DFO to overfly fishing areas.

 

[Gunner]

Gunner:

Is there planning in the works to address those critical manpower areas? Off the top of my head, some CFC papers I have read state that over 50% of the budget is currently spent on personnel costs. With such a high proportion of labour costs, does this indicate a Federal intent to promote drawdown of numbers on strength in order to open up the budget for future priorities?

If the problem is with retention why is there no incentivizing provided to the required personnel? Instead we have private contracting of support services and now instruction on an ongoing basis. It seems illogical to promote the idea of having your people leave, only to draw on them once again but only in a civilian role. Some examples which come to mind are private contracting of pilots for towing targets and private contracting of planes by DFO to overfly fishing areas.

There are two parts ot your question.  First is the demographic bubble or "greying" of the military that is currently occuring.  It is well known and is a result of the considerable downsizing in the early 90s.  How to solve it is a problem considering we are going to undergo an expansion by 5000 regulars and 3000 reservists in the next 5 years.  Many will recall in the 80s when we underwent our last expansion and promotions were fairly quick.  While fast promotions led to inexperience at various rank levels, I think the army had enough depth at the time to draw up some of the better talent (some of our current leadership certainly is indicative of this).  Not sure if we have the same depth of experience and talent now (in our smaller army) that we had in the 80s.  This makes you wonder how the expansion will effect us?

The second part would be the manning of the new HQs.  I believe the manning of the new HQs will come from current structures within NDHQ (ie the DCDS shop) and additional manning will come from lower priority areas.  I have heard that LFDTS will take a  PY hit to fill Majs and LCols army positions in the new HQs.  Capable Majs and LCols are not created in a couple of years and with the current shortage of junior officers right now, it makes for an interesting question as to where the senior officers will come from and what they will be like in the future?

50% in personnel costs doesn't surprise me.  If you google "Making Sense Out of Dollars", this ADM Fin document will show you where the DND budget is spent.  Maybe I'm jaded about incentives, but I really feel the force reduction plan (FRP) in the 90s kept the wrong people in the military.  Those with other options, the ones you wanted to keep in, where the ones that took the package and fled to the private sector not wanting to serve in a CF that was crippled by inadequate budgets.  Ask yourself the question why retirement is being boosted to 25 years of service vice the previous 20 years...get more return on the CF investment!

 

[pbi]

Gunner: I support your assessment 100%, in particular your observations on our potentially tenuous ability to expand rapidly, and the disastrous effects of the FRP fiasco. From what I have been able to make out from briefings, Powerpoints, etc, your comments on HQ sourcing are correct: we are breaking up and stripping existing organizations in order to source the new operational commands. Despite all the inevitable frictions I think that we are moving in the right direction. While I agree that the CDS needs to rule with a strong hand(and kick some comfy butts...), I am also concerned that legitimate professional dissent and concern are given fair hearing and considered where it makes sense to do so, and not summarily smacked aside by a slavering pack of "Get on the Train Gestapo" hounds. A very difficult balancing act, but if anybody can do it I think it is our CDS.

Cheers

 

[GO!!!]

Has anyone stopped to consider the need for these new commands (Canada Command, SOF Command, Expeditionary Force...)?

We are still unable to increase our numbers in the field at the Cpl to WO level, but we are creating and staffing more jobs for Major + at an astounding rate! These commands seem to me to be creating more jobs in an already bloated bureacracy - with no capability increase at the end that matters.

Since we have no ongoing operations in Canada, who will "Canada Command" command?

We only have one SF unit, that has it's own command structure, but now a new one will be placed on top of it.

We have no expeditionary forces! Anywhere! (Or a method of sending them if they existed!)

Perhaps I am just a little too jaded and cynical, but can these outlays of personnel and money be justified with the current lack of capabilities and soldiers? Are'nt we putting the cart before the horse here?

The capability to expand our command structure seems to be well documented and proven - when will this ability translate into getting more than 3-5 men in a section?

 

[buzgo]

AFAIK they are shutting down the JOG in Kingston and moving many of those positions to CEFCOM/CANADACOM. The positions at NDCC are rolling over into CANADACOM as well I think. There are also a bunch of people at LFDTS that are coming up to Ottawa. As for CANSOFCOM, I believe that there has always been a cell in the J3 shop that is expanding to take over.

 

[Gunner]

Has anyone stopped to consider the need for these new commands (Canada Command, SOF Command, Expeditionary Force...)?

It is very much required and, in essence, is separating command functions out of NDHQ. 

We are still unable to increase our numbers in the field at the Cpl to WO level, but we are creating and staffing more jobs for Major + at an astounding rate! These commands seem to me to be creating more jobs in an already bloated bureacracy - with no capability increase at the end that matters.

The Cpl to WO will come in time and the staffing of these positions are simply moving around currently existing PYs. 

Since we have no ongoing operations in Canada, who will "Canada Command" command?

Actually there is alot going on every day with the air force and navy primarily but also with the army in terms of liaison and planning with the provincial governemnts.  Moreover, don't forget Canada Command covers Canada, the US and Mexico.

We only have one SF unit, that has it's own command structure, but now a new one will be placed on top of it.

COMSOFCOM consists of JTF2, CSOR, CFNBCD, etc. 

We have no expeditionary forces! Anywhere! (Or a method of sending them if they existed!)

If you have been overseas, you were considered an expeditionary force.  The navy is the lead for a SCTF that would include an amphibous battalion (maybe the one slated for Comox ...).

Perhaps I am just a little too jaded and cynical, but can these outlays of personnel and money be justified with the current lack of capabilities and soldiers? Are'nt we putting the cart before the horse here?

For someone so young, you are jaded and cynical.    As mentioned above, the new commands are not new PYs, etc and are very much required to streamline the CDS C2 structure and get the NDHQ mentality out of the CF.  To quote Martha Stewart, it's a good thing.

The capability to expand our command structure seems to be well documented and proven - when will this ability translate into getting more than 3-5 men in a section?

That is a recruiting and retention issue and it is being also being dealt with.

 

[ArmyRick]

personally i am for the direction that Hillier is heading

 

[McG]

It was finally decided that Canada COM would not take on any force generation responsibilties and would remain focussed on force employment.  In other words, the army would generate trained forces for employment with Canada COM and CEFCOM. 

Does this mean that the LF Areas will continue to exist beside the CF regional JTFs?

 

[ArmyRick]

From what I took away from the O Groups (This past fall) is that the JTF Regions will replace LFCA, LFWA, SQFT, etc. Keep in mind the JTFs will not be stood up for a short while yet.

 

[Good2Golf]

Actually, JTF (Atlantic) was stood up this summer, with RAdm McNeil double hatted as Comd JTF(A) as well as Comd MARLANT in the transition.  One would likely see the LFA's exist as Regional JTF LCCs (land component commands)...that's already the way 1 CAD is heading...as the CFACC (CF Air Component Command).

Cheers,
Duey

 

[GO!!!]

...that's already the way 1 CAD is heading...as the CFACC (CF Air Component Command).

Cheers,
Duey

Oh boy, I can hear it already - "their an hour late for extraction, where are they, I'm freezing - this is all FACCed up"

 

[Infanteer]

GO, these changes are for the good along organizational terms.  Try and find Douglas Bland's Chiefs of Defence, it gives a very good account of why these changes needed to be made (the changes of Transformation are very similar to those he proposed in his book 10 years ago).

 

[Roy Harding]

GO, these changes are for the good along organizational terms.  Try and find Douglas Bland's Chiefs of Defence, it gives a very good account of why these changes needed to be made (the changes of Transformation are very similar to those he proposed in his book 10 years ago).

You can find the book here:  http://www.ciss.ca/books_Bland.htm

 

[Good2Golf]

Oh boy, I can hear it already - "their an hour late for extraction, where are they, I'm freezing - this is all FACCed up"

;D

GO!!!  You won't get any argument from me! 

 

[Gunner]

From what I took away from the O Groups (This past fall) is that the JTF Regions will replace LFCA, LFWA, SQFT, etc. Keep in mind the JTFs will not be stood up for a short while yet.

No, the LFA's will continue to exist as will their army "force generation" requirements - this is 95% of what a LFA currently does.  They will be double hatted (similar to what they have done since 1990) but will be beefed up staff capable of domestic operations planning and execution.  The JTF's are all well on their way to stand up with IOC occuring on 1 Feb 06.

Quote from: GO!!! on Today at 12:15:54
Oh boy, I can hear it already - "their an hour late for extraction, where are they, I'm freezing - this is all FACCed up"
GO!!!  You won't get any argument from me! 

Canada Command was originally referred to as "CANCOM" however V/Adm Forcier quickly stated that it would be referred to as Canada COM.  If there was a screw up he didn't want it referred to as "CAN'T COM" (you will recall the UNPROFOR CANBATS became CAN'T BAT)

 

[George Wallace]

Canada Command was originally referred to as "CANCOM"

This initially had me confused as to why everyone who had moved into Startop now had to move out to make room for CANCOM.  I couldn't figure out for the life of me why they would give the brand new building up to the Singers, Dancers, Musicians, Comedians, and other Entertainers and Staff.....

 

[Haggis]

This initially had me confused as to why everyone who had moved into Startop now had to move out to make room for CANCOM. 

Now that you mentioned it, the first floor of Star Top is occupied by CFPSA, the folks who put on the CANCON shows.

Star Top was a super facility.  Too bad it wasn't my long term home. (It had a great and rarely used gym.)  Now I'm in a draughty mausoleum downtown until our next move in Aug 06.  My section has moved so often, it makes me feel that the "N" in NDHQ stands for "nomadic".

 

[ArmyRick]

So they will keep both the Regional JTF and the Land Forces Areas? That is screwed up IMO. Now we really are adding in too many HQs.

 

[Infanteer]

So they will keep both the Regional JTF and the Land Forces Areas? That is screwed up IMO. Now we really are adding in too many HQs.

I agree.  What is the point with going with unified regional/functional HQs if we are to also keep the Service based HQ's they were meant to replace?   ???

 

[Good2Golf]

I'm not so sure the LFA's will continue to exist in their present form.  That's not what CAT 1 came up with in its C2 recommendations to the Chief.  The biggest delta being LFWA then being part of both JTF(Prairie) and JTF(Pacific)?  Not sure that's even possible, let alone plausible. ???  Any refs: Gunner?

Cheers,
Duey