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Challenger/"VIP" Jet/CF Chopper Use (CDS, others) [merged]

There's no CYA in the RCAF? I've always been taught to push information to the people that need it, so if something blows up I've performed my due diligence. SupersonicMax you're stuck in the Afghanistan days where we could do no wrong training in Canada. Welcome to the new reality. I'm sure I'll see your aircraft on CBC one of these days because you can't be bothered to add a CC to the PAFFOs.
 
milnews.ca said:
That said, anyone in an organization who forsees potential public misunderstanding of an activity should be responsible to at least bring it up with their bosses.

This is the kind of BS that happens with some people in PA:

A few years ago, a CF-188 was in Nevada on exercise. After take-off, a problem developed and it had to jettison it's drop tanks and land at Nellis AFB in Las vegas. The tanks were dropped in a designated area. When the aircraft landed, Wing Operations in Cold lake was advised. The PAO there filled out whatever report needs to be made and sent it to the Division with "no media attention expected".

Media saw this on the wire and asked the MND what Canadian fighters were doing in las Vegas. There was a mild media uproad about AF spending time in LV.

Training in LV was legitimate. Did we stop doing something legitimate because parts of the public perceived it as a junket ? No, we didn't.

*The Division PAO who breifed us on this incident during the flying supervisor's course i attended placed the blame for the controversy squarly on the pilot for not thinking about the PA implications of what he was doing.

 
CDN Aviator said:
This is the kind of BS that happens with some people in PA:

A few years ago, a CF-188 was in Nevada on exercise. After take-off, a problem developed and it had to jettison it's drop tanks and land at Nellis AFB in Las vegas. The tanks were dropped in a designated area. When the aircraft landed, Wing Operations in Cold lake was advised. The PAO there filled out whatever report needs to be made and sent it to the Division with "no media attention expected".

Media saw this on the wire and asked the MND what Canadian fighters were doing in las Vegas. There was a mild media uproad about AF spending time in LV.

Training in LV was legitimate. Did we stop doing something legitimate because parts of the public perceived it as a junket ? No, we didn't.

*The Division PAO who breifed us on this incident during the flying supervisor's course i attended placed the blame for the controversy squarly on the pilot for not thinking about the PA implications of what he was doing.
That last bit in yellow is a crock o' feces - sounds like the pilot gave all the right details to the right people (did bring it up with their bosses), and the PAO dropped the ball on things deciding "no worries".  Maybe I'm a bit conservative about these things, but better to have Media Lines ready and not need them than the other way around....
 
PuckChaser said:
There's no CYA in the RCAF? I've always been taught to push information to the people that need it, so if something blows up I've performed my due diligence. SupersonicMax you're stuck in the Afghanistan days where we could do no wrong training in Canada. Welcome to the new reality. I'm sure I'll see your aircraft on CBC one of these days because you can't be bothered to add a CC to the PAFFOs.

PuckChaser,

Sincerely, having the Ops Center fax a copy of each and every Flight Plan to the PAFFO (because that's how we file our flight plan, verbally to the Ops Center) would do no good.  First, the PAFFO would not understand a thing on that flight plan (it's all coded...). Second, the information is readily available for anyone that asks (and there is someone 24/7 sitting at the Ops Center). 

What about when we are on the road in, I don't know, Small Town, WY and our destination is no good because of weather and instead, we decide to go to Some Town, AB?  Do I need to communicate that to the PAFFO as well?  How do I communicate that?  No.  I do a SITREP every night to the Ops Center.  The Ops Center is where all the flight operations information is located and available upon legitimate requests. 

As an Aircraft Commander, the responsibility of the aircraft and its whereabouts is delegated to me.  The itinerary may change when I judge there is a better course of action.

FWIW, you have probably seen my aircraft a couple of times on CBC already.
 
milnews.ca said:
That last bit in yellow is a crock o' feces

You know you completely lack SA when you are a PAO and you tell a room filled with 60 aircrew that it's their fault the minister had to answer a question. I crap you not, that is what the division PAO did that morning.

It was the same media BS when the Griffon boys landed at the A&W in Kenora.
 
CDN Aviator said:
You know you completely lack SA when you are a PAO and you tell a room filled with 60 aircrew that it's their fault the minister had to answer a question. I crap you not, that is what the division PAO did that morning.
Agreed +100%
 
Max,

I'm not saying the pilots need to tell the PAO about every sortie, but Ops DOES need to keep the PAO informed of ALL flights that may cause public scrutiny. The schedule may be easily accessible but, as you said, the PAO would have a difficult time deciphering what it all means.  Remember, the job of the PAO is to advise the Comd and they can't do that if they are not properly informed. Granted, it's up to the PAO to ensure the staff are aware of the type of info they are looking for, but that same staff needs to play ball.

I recall getting an SIR where the section about possible media involvement said 'NIL' even though I was the first, other than those directly involved, to know about it because the media called me looking for details. (Said SIR was filled out by ops staff) People need to realize that the media cares about everything we do, even those little quarterly cross-country trips outside the area.

And remember, all this is coming from someone who has played on both the operator AND staff/PAO side if the house.  You might not agree or like what I have to say, but I know how operators (especially pilots) work and I know what THEY need to do to help me do my job properly.
 
Strike said:
but Ops DOES need to keep the PAO informed of ALL flights that may cause public scrutiny.

Since you have said that any flights can attract media attention, the PAO should already be keeping track of flying activities.

Furthermore, PAOs are better trained WRT what would attract media attention. In my Las vegas example, even the Wing PAO did not think that media attention was to be expected. How are we to expect the crews to do so if the professionals do not ?
 
Funny thing is when I see the helo landed besides a no named pond I think good training.

These people in Labrador would be losing their minds if a pilot had a hard time landing somewhere in a rescue situation. Media would be quoting 3 tooth wonders saying things like: "Why don't they train to land in rough spots; this is Labrador!"

It's a no win situation up there. Ignore the local bitterness up there boys and girls. Buy a new truck just to piss them all off.
 
CDN Aviator said:
Since you have said that any flights can attract media attention, the PAO should already be keeping track of flying activities.

Furthermore, PAOs are better trained WRT what would attract media attention. In my Las vegas example, even the Wing PAO did not think that media attention was to be expected. How are we to expect the crews to do so if the professionals do not ?

Granted, the system is not perfect. Who would ever think and regular training event like Red Flag or the like would garner any attention when it never has in the past. But a Hornet showing up in Butt Fck Nowhere might turn a few heads and is worth letting the PAO know.

And the example of a diversion due to bad wx?  Ops would be told about it, since they track that stuff. Simply CC the PAO when sending the CO the latest update on where his guys are. That way, when the MLO gets a call asking why there's a Military aircraft parked on the ramp, the reason has already been passed on by the local PAO and they can give an answer.

The situation in Goose is unique. It doesn't matter what they do, the CF and ANYTHING government related is going to have to deal with negative spin. Those helos and crew could go out and save 100 children from a burning school house by using the down blast from the main rotor to put the fire out and the locals would criticize them for not acting fast enough. It really is a lose-lose situation there.
 
If I could predict every aspect of every flight that might generate PAO/MSM/public interest I'd be putting that power to much better use.

There is a real limit to practicality when it comes to trying to provide a PAO with enough information on every single flight, especially now that taskings and scheduling are moving to systems to which they have no access. Most of them would not have a clue about the information anyway. If they receive a question, they should know whom to ask in turn.

An anecdotal tale:

In the Good Old Days, we used to have PA systems for Kiowas and Twin Hueys. These were semi-directional, and, as can be imagined, quite loud. There was an annual currency requirement, as there was/is on most mission kits and flying sequences. We could, of course, meet that by flogging around the range and training area for two hours taking turns endlessly saying "Test one two three test one two three", or, we could provide a little return to the local population. We began to schedule these missions in mid- to late-December, and would float around Petawawa, Pembroke, Chalk River, Deep River at a couple of thousand feet and play Christmas Carols. Most people could not tell from where the music was coming, as it would fade in and out, but feedback was universally positive - until one Grinch complained about the "waste of taxpayers' money" to the local MP's secretary.

Unlike armoured vehicles, aircraft need to go to places and do things along the way. There is a lot of latitude there, so long as the training requirements are met. There is little value in conducting instrument approaches at one's own base, for example, as they are quickly committed to memory. There are generally few airports in close proximity that offer variety, so, to gain that experience and to practice IFR cross-country flight, longer-range overnight away trips are scheduled as necessary. Crews can choose where they wish to spend a night. They can do that at somebody's hometown, or a city that has something interesting to offer in the evenings, or they can be forced to go to somewhere with nothing just to be miserable. Cost to the public purse is the same either way, but highly-trained aircrew that represent a significant public investment have one less reason to stay in a job that pays significantly less than could be made elsewhere.

As for the Griffon in question lately, that crew and machine could have flown a two-hour currency flight and the helicopter spent the rest of the day sitting in the hangar and the crew cooling their heels in their office, or that flight could have involved an intermission of a couple of hours sitting on the ground while a few fishing rods were put to good use. Cost to the public purse is, again, exactly the same. Training value is, again, exactly the same. A crew, again, receives a little more motivation towards their jobs. So longs as the unit can cover its standby requirement, other training can and will be conducted.

Effort put into teaching all CF pers about OPSEC and Facebook, etcetera, would be far more valuable than effort put into teaching PAOs about every aspect of flying ops - and not for coverup purposes.
 
Soldiers going on tour shouldn't get free vacations (I.E HLTA). Navy ships should pull along side just long enough to get what they require to run the ship and get back to sea.

People working at Tim Hortons in Labrador don't have perks to their jobs so why should anyone else?
 
This "Mountain Man" competition that the Army does on work time-

Can someone explain the military value of the canoes?  How much does that cost the Crown?

Just sayin....

;)
 
milnews.ca said:
Answer to the second part, in Pet for MM 2011, anyway, was $83,055.00 for rented canoes according to MERX.

My point, exactly.

Every part of the military makes decisions, on a daily basis, to apportion resources.  Most of the decisions are good (or at least acceptable) ones, but even many of them are still in " the eye of the beholder".

Helo usage in NL is clearly very sensitive these days.  I'm pretty sure CO 444 and 102 get that, now.

As for keeping PAOs informed on everything we do.... ::)
 
dogger1936 said:
Soldiers going on tour shouldn't get free vacations (I.E HLTA). Navy ships should pull along side just long enough to get what they require to run the ship and get back to sea.

People working at Tim Hortons in Labrador don't have perks to their jobs so why should anyone else?

Apples and Oranges!
 
dogger1936 said:
Soldiers going on tour shouldn't get free vacations (I.E HLTA). Navy ships should pull along side just long enough to get what they require to run the ship and get back to sea.

People working at Tim Hortons in Labrador don't have perks to their jobs so why should anyone else?

I am not sure how much of that, if any, was sarcasm, but...

We get paid more than them. Why should we?

We get moved around every few years. Why shouldn't they be?

We are subject to unlimited liability. Why shouldn't they be?

They made their career choices, you made yours, and I made mine.
 
SeaKingTacco said:
This "Mountain Man" competition that the Army does on work time-

Can someone explain the military value of the canoes?  How much does that cost the Crown?

Just sayin....

;)

We need to train Courier du Bois. The fur trade might be important in a future conflict.  :nod:
 
Loachman said:
I am not sure how much of that, if any, was sarcasm, but...

We get paid more than them. Why should we?

We get moved around every few years. Why shouldn't they be?

We are subject to unlimited liability. Why shouldn't they be?

They made their career choices, you made yours, and I made mine.

100 percent sarcastic.  ;)

Having said that...this is how these people in this province think.
 
dogger1936 said:
100 percent sarcastic.  ;)

Having said that...this is how these people in this province think.

I keep telling ya. You have to use the smilie  :sarcasm:
 
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