Changes to service medals announced

[Navy_Pete]

The FLS folks work pretty hard to keep the ships supplied.  I have never been on FLS but I have done a few deployments at sea and I know they work long hours dealing local customs and chandlers to  keep your supply lines open and flowing.

CJOC on the other hand, I am convinced that they exist to employ GO/FOs and thier follow on supporting staff.  From a logistics standpoint all they do is complicate things.  I am not convinced the RCN requires CJOC to deploy.  IMHO is another level of bureaucracy forced upon us because.

Agree; we would have been hosed without FLS sorting out parts and whatnot getting through customs and sorting out other issues for us. We eventually had a pretty good working relationship with our FLS and made a huge difference. To be honest CJOC was just another layer of BS to get through, and mostly they were an additional complication adding extra lead time onto getting things sorted. They also added another layer onto the telephone game (two actually; there was also MCC) and our technical briefings to NATO got messed up everytime they tried to give it the 'strategic CJOC perspective'.

Can't believe they can simultaneously require HLTA and not fund backfills; does someone else run the RAMP now other than ship's staff? I had contracted a number of locals to get some repairs done, and we were also getting a major mission critical repair done with a big TAV. It was like a really busy SWP, and there were about 50 people working long days everyday we were there to get that sorted, on top of the normal foreign port duty watch. Without a backfill, there were a number of us that never would have been able to take HLTA.

Anyway, off topic, sorry.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Agree; we would have been hosed without FLS sorting out parts and whatnot getting through customs and sorting out other issues for us. We eventually had a pretty good working relationship with our FLS and made a huge difference. To be honest CJOC was just another layer of BS to get through, and mostly they were an additional complication adding extra lead time onto getting things sorted. They also added another layer onto the telephone game (two actually; there was also MCC) and our technical briefings to NATO got messed up everytime they tried to give it the 'strategic CJOC perspective'.

Can't believe they can simultaneously require HLTA and not fund backfills; does someone else run the RAMP now other than ship's staff? I had contracted a number of locals to get some repairs done, and we were also getting a major mission critical repair done with a big TAV. It was like a really busy SWP, and there were about 50 people working long days everyday we were there to get that sorted, on top of the normal foreign port duty watch. Without a backfill, there were a number of us that never would have been able to take HLTA.

Anyway, off topic, sorry.

I will PM you to try and lessen the derail I am also at fault for lol.  At my daughter's dance class.  Will send soon.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

CJOC on the other hand, I am convinced that they exist to employ GO/FOs and thier follow on supporting staff.  From a logistics standpoint all they do is complicate things.  I am not convinced the RCN requires CJOC to deploy.  IMHO is another level of bureaucracy forced upon us because.

Agreed.  Luckily for us, we'd normally deploy under comd of one of our own Majors as the ATF Comd and they would be direct link to CJOC...meaning the skipper and crew could ignore the BS and focus on the mission(s).  I'd rather see the level of C2 they (tried) to do be left at the Air Div level.

As for the medals we are going to start looking like North Korean generals soon.  Nothing wrong with people earning medals but when the awarding far out weighs the experience gained I start to worry about the methodology behind it.

When a fighter pilot can fly 28 mission dropping ordinance on targets in Iraq and Syria, and get the same medal as the dude driving the bus back of forth to the DFAC for 31 days in Kuwait...that, to me, better demonstrates the methodology is flawed.  Same goes for assessing/applying RA.  :2c:

 

[Quirky]

Not sure how it works in the army/air force, but this is great for the folks that rotate through covering others off for their trip back home.

I covered off for OP in 2011 for 15 days, not that this BLINGFORGEN backdates as far, but I don't deserve the same medal that folks got that were there for 6-8 months. Maybe this is a way appease those who have been in for 15 years and only have a CD - this is entirely due to posting circumstance at the time of deployments and nothing to do with individual performance. I could care less with how many pieces of flair I have when I retire and that doesn't reflect ones contribution during service.

 

[Halifax Tar]

When a fighter pilot can fly 28 mission dropping ordinance on targets in Iraq and Syria, and get the same medal as the dude driving the bus back of forth to the DFAC for 31 days in Kuwait...that, to me, better demonstrates the methodology is flawed.  Same goes for assessing/applying RA.  :2c:

With no disrespect to the fighter pilots you mention but this isnt/wasnt exactly flying  Hawker Typhoons across France, bombing Nazis a tree top level, getting raked with AAA and all the while watching for Messerschmidt's and Focke Wolf's to come screaming out of the sun.  Lets just try to keep some perspective.  I wonder do those on the ground begrudge the air crew and ground crews ? 

It seems to me we, the CAF, have been infected with a sort of "my service was more important than yours" affliction depending on your medals and what stories one can tell. 

We have always given the same campaign medals for all those partaking.  Just like those driving trucks far behind lines in WW2.  Someone has to fight and someone has to enable that fight.

During one of my first Remembrance days in uniform I met a vet and we shared a beer.  I asked about his service and he told me his job was to ferry/move/drive trucks around Ontario.  I didn't think his service less valuable.  Someone had to do that job. 

 

[Halifax Tar]

I covered off for OP in 2011 for 15 days, not that this BLINGFORGEN backdates as far, but I don't deserve the same medal that folks got that were there for 6-8 months. Maybe this is a way appease those who have been in for 15 years and only have a CD - this is entirely due to posting circumstance at the time of deployments and nothing to do with individual performance. I could care less with how many pieces of flair I have when I retire and that doesn't reflect ones contribution during service.

I whole heatedly agree. 

I tell the sailors under my leadership the same thing.  Do you job honestly and with pride.  But dont forget your family, they will be with you longer than the CAF.  Someday we take off the uniform for the last time and none of it matters anymore; and you will only wear your medals on Remembrance day.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

With no disrespect to the fighter pilots you mention but this isnt/wasnt exactly flying  Hawker Typhoons across France, bombing Nazis a tree top level, getting raked with AAA and all the while watching for Messerschmidt's and Focke Wolf's to come screaming out of the sun.  Lets just try to keep some perspective.  I wonder do those on the ground begrudge the air crew and ground crews ? 

It seems to me we, the CAF, have been infected with a sort of "my service was more important than yours" affliction depending on your medals and what stories one can tell. 

We have always given the same campaign medals for all those partaking.  Just like those driving trucks far behind lines in WW2.  Someone has to fight and someone has to enable that fight.

During one of my first Remembrance days in uniform I met a vet and we shared a beer.  I asked about his service and he told me his job was to ferry/move/drive trucks around Ontario.  I didn't think his service less valuable.  Someone had to do that job.

What does any of that have to do with what I said? 

 

[Halifax Tar]

What does any of that have to do with what I said?

I believe I was attempting to counter/temper your assertations.  Do I need to draw connecting lines ?

 

[Sub_Guy]

With no disrespect to the fighter pilots you mention but this isnt/wasnt exactly flying  Hawker Typhoons across France, bombing Nazis a tree top level, getting raked with AAA and all the while watching for Messerschmidt's and Focke Wolf's to come screaming out of the sun.  Lets just try to keep some perspective.  I wonder do those on the ground begrudge the air crew and ground crews ? 

Are you implying our Hornet drivers were under no threat on Impact?  ISIS had and utilized AA.  Was it effective? Not really, however the threat was there, ask Jordan.

I keep mentioning it, but for the GCS-Allied Force aircrews only needed 5 sorties.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Are you implying our Hornet drivers were under no threat on Impact?  ISIS had and utilized AA.  Was it effective? Not really, however the threat was there, ask Jordan.

I keep mentioning it, but for the GCS-Allied Force aircrews only needed 5 sorties.

Not at all, but there are levels of threat.  Hence our HA and RA levels. 

As well I was asserting that it there is more to "dropping ordinance" on a target than the actions implied simply with EITS's that statement.  Frankly, having supported  Air Crews, I can imagine their outrageous howls if they weren’t chauffeured around for lunch would be great and deafening.  <There is tongue in cheek humor here>

Again everyone has a job to do. No one is more important than anyone else. 

 

[CountDC]

Maybe this is a way appease those who have been in for 15 years and only have a CD - this is entirely due to posting circumstance at the time of deployments and nothing to do with individual performance. I could care less with how many pieces of flair I have when I retire and that doesn't reflect ones contribution during service.

This I agree with.  Maybe it is because I have a lot more years than that with only a CD to wear due to going where the military wanted me.  I recall at one time that a clerk in Florida for a year would get a medal for being on a Small Op in the middle east as they were support staff for the op. Joked about it at the time as I have no idea what the clerk actually did there as I dealt directly with the mbrs on the Op in the middle east and never dealt with that clerk.  I was taking care of their pay and claims at the time.  Didn't even know the clerk existed for at least the first 6 months.

Thinking the right idea is to tie the medal to the operation/deployment rather than time in theatre .

 

[Blackadder1916]

This I agree with.  Maybe it is because I have a lot more years than that with only a CD to wear due to going where the military wanted me.  I recall at one time that a clerk in Florida for a year would get a medal for being on a Small Op in the middle east as they were support staff for the op. Joked about it at the time as I have no idea what the clerk actually did there as I dealt directly with the mbrs on the Op in the middle east and never dealt with that clerk.  I was taking care of their pay and claims at the time.  Didn't even know the clerk existed for at least the first 6 months.

Thinking the right idea is to tie the medal to the operation/deployment rather than time in theatre .

Well done and thank you for your service.  With that said, I'll repeat (as I have done on a few occasions previously) a post that I wrote many years ago.

One of my lasting memories of someone talking about the decorations and medals that he was wearing occurred in 1994.  I had the good luck of having a COS date out of Lahr that permitted me to arrange my passage home on the Queen Elizabeth 2 sailing out of Southampton on 8 June.  . . . . 


A few people had approached me with the inevitable questions about who we were and what were we doing.  I was chatting with a lady when we were approached by a gentleman in a maroon jacket that included Cdn para wings and several medals.  He introduced himself and joined in the conversation which naturally turned to where had you been.  He had served with the 1 Cdn Para Bn as a private during the war and had made the jump into Normandy and over the Rhine. 

The lady with whom we were chatting asked about the medals and wings he and I were wearing.  I probably would have answered in my typically flippant manner about 12 years undetected crime (C.D.), 6 months getting a suntan and not getting a venereal disease (UNEFME) and 4 years wine and beer tasting (SSM with NATO bar), but he replied first by drawing her attention to the one medal we had in common, the Canadian Forces Decoration.  I was surprised when he told her it was the one that he was most proud to wear.  The lady asked why.  His reply impressed me and later that evening I wrote an account of what he said, maybe not verbatim, because we had imbibed several beverages, but close enough for government work.

He said.  “ It’s easy to be a soldier when everyone is or wants to be a soldier; when being in uniform is the normal thing to do.  The true measure of a man is his commitment to serving his country when there is little chance of excitement, or glory or getting medals.  This medal (he indicated his CD) shows people that we pledged a significant portion of our lives to serving our country when few others would, doing things that we didn't necessarily want to do and that were not very glamorous.  These (he indicated his 4 or 5 wartime medals) I got for spending 3 years in uniform doing what most guys my age were doing. Was it hard work and dangerous? Yes. But mostly I had a lot of fun doing it.”

Since then I’ve had a different perspective on those little pieces of ribbon that we wear.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I believe I was attempting to counter/temper your assertations.  Do I need to draw connecting lines ?

Not at all, but you're the one who used the words "importance" or "value".  They're not my words.

In your WWII example of someone driving trucks, etc...that still happens.  If the truck being driven is inside the boundaries of Iraq, they get the GCS.  Same as the CF18 pilot.  The distinction isn't made at the 'what your job was', it is in the "where did you do it?" question.

General Campaign Star - Expedition

The General Campaign Star (GCS) is awarded to members of the Canadian Forces and members of allied forces working with the Canadian Forces who deploy into a defined theatre of operations to take part in operations in the presence of an armed enemy.

5 October 2014 to present
Awarded to military personnel who served 14 days cumulative:
within the political boundaries and airspace of Iraq from 5 October 2014 onward; and/or
within the political boundaries of Syria, its airspace and territorial waters from 20 April 2015 onward.

And that's not really any different than WWII, is it?

France and Germany Star

The star was awarded for one day or more of service in France, Belgium, Holland or Germany between 06 June 1944 (D-Day) and 08 May 1945.

Like the GSM is now given to people who support ops but from say, Kuwait, in WWII you didn't get Stars if you weren't in the required locations at the required times.

Defence Medal

Although the medal was usually awarded to Canadians for six months service in Britain between 03 September 1939 and 08 May 1945, the exact terms were: Service in the forces in non-operational areas subjected to air attack or closely threatened, providing such service lasted for three or more years. Service overseas or outside the country of residence, providing that such service lasted for one year, except in territories threatened by the enemy or subject to bomb attacks, in which case it was six months prior to 02 September 1945.

So, looking back to the Stars and Medals from WWII, it doesn't seem to be a "new thing" to distinguish between 'conducting operations in a defined area" and "supporting ops from outside theatre".

And, like my post, the websites don't use words like 'importance' or 'value'.  Have another read;  my message wasn't the one you got out of my post.

When a fighter pilot can fly 28 mission dropping ordinance on targets in Iraq and Syria, and get the same medal as the dude driving the bus back of forth to the DFAC for 31 days in Kuwait...that, to me, better demonstrates the methodology is flawed.  Same goes for assessing/applying RA.  :2c:

I'll change the post and use a different example...

When a fighter pilot can fly 28 mission dropping ordinance on targets in Iraq and Syria, and get the same medal as the dude driving CF18 pilot who's doing a staff job as the ATF-I HQ in Kuwait and rides the bus back of forth to the DFAC for 31 days in Kuwait...that, to me, better demonstrates the methodology is flawed.  Same goes for assessing/applying RA.  :2c:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Not at all, but there are levels of threat.  Hence our HA and RA levels. 

That is actually a bad example to use for IMPACT.  Despite how many days and nights aircrew spent in/over Iraq or Syria, our HA and RA was the exact same as the folks who never left the B & Bs in Kuwait. 

 

[Zoomie]

That is actually a bad example to use for IMPACT.  Despite how many days and nights aircrew spent in/over Iraq or Syria, our HA and RA was the exact same as the folks who never left the B & Bs in Kuwait.

Did Aircrew on Op Impact get ACRA?

 

[Sub_Guy]

Did Aircrew on Op Impact get ACRA?

Yes we did.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yes we did.

ACRA = "Flight Pay" like Sea and Land pay ?  How did you guys manage to collect that while being in receipt of FSP, HA and RA ?  We have all been told we arent allowed to collect environmental allowances and deployment benefits. 

When a fighter pilot can fly 28 mission dropping ordinance on targets in Iraq and Syria, and get the same medal as the dude driving CF18 pilot who's doing a staff job as the ATF-I HQ in Kuwait and rides the bus back of forth to the DFAC for 31 days in Kuwait...that, to me, better demonstrates the methodology is flawed.  Same goes for assessing/applying RA.  :2c:

For most of your post I don’t disagree with you.  I think the GCS has been diluted and its original intent has be lost.  You should see the sailors who walk around with it.  They haven’t been in a bar fight in a foreign port let alone be "in the presence of the enemy" yet they manage to justify its issue.  Meah...

The quoted portion I still don’t understand.  Are you upset that the REMF is making the same as the fighter pilot , getting the same medal ?  Or are you ok with what the REMF is getting and you think the fighter pilot deserves better recognition by way of pay and medals ? 

*I am a REMF, I am allowed to use that term at my pleasure*

 

[Sub_Guy]

ACRA = "Flight Pay" like Sea and Land pay ?  How did you guys manage to collect that while being in receipt of FSP, HA and RA ?  We have all been told we arent allowed to collect environmental allowances and deployment benefits. 

Yes, we get to keep it and it's legal (*I don't think it is fair). I do recall from my Navy days that I did indeed lose my environmental allowance while collecting FSP/HA/RA.

The reference is - CBI 10.3.08(1) (Allowances for designated positions) A member who is entitled to an allowance under MFSI 10.3.05 (Hardship Allowance), unless the member is in a specific position on the operation designated by the CDS, is not entitled to an allowance under the following instructions:

                    (a) CBI 205.30 (Paratroop Allowance);

                    (b) CBI 205.31 (Rescue Specialist Allowance);

                    (c) CBI 205.32 (Aircrew Allowance)

The next para in the reference informs all others that they can't receive LDA, SDA, SUB, etc.. while in receipt of HA.

 

[SupersonicMax]

ACRA = "Flight Pay" like Sea and Land pay ?  How did you guys manage to collect that while being in receipt of FSP, HA and RA ?  We have all been told we arent allowed to collect environmental allowances and deployment benefits. 

For most of your post I don’t disagree with you.  I think the GCS has been diluted and its original intent has be lost.  You should see the sailors who walk around with it.  They haven’t been in a bar fight in a foreign port let alone be "in the presence of the enemy" yet they manage to justify its issue.  Meah...

The quoted portion I still don’t understand.  Are you upset that the REMF is making the same as the fighter pilot , getting the same medal ?  Or are you ok with what the REMF is getting and you think the fighter pilot deserves better recognition by way of pay and medals ? 

*I am a REMF, I am allowed to use that term at my pleasure*

The issue in EITS’ post is that under the previous rules, both would get the GSM-EXP when clearly the one dropping weapons and facing the occasional AAA in Iraq/Syria should have been recognized for a bit more...  Both jobs are indeed important but one is in direct contact with the enemy, the other not.

 

[PuckChaser]

The issue in EITS’ post is that under the previous rules, both would get the GSM-EXP when clearly the one dropping weapons and facing the occasional AAA in Iraq/Syria should have been recognized for a bit more...  Both jobs are indeed important but one is in direct contact with the enemy, the other not.

You want 2 medals for your tour? What about CANSOF, who was probably in infinitely more "direct contact with the enemy" for more than the handful of hours a day you were over the ops box? How many medals do they get?