Chest Rig preference

[IRepoCans]

I'd say I'm a big fan of being able to pack out my armour if the environment or task makes sense to do so (which is more common than you'd think), which is why belt kits and chest rigs will always be something I advocate for.

Protection is huge, and not just from frag, we need the ability to have hard side plates in whatever future armour carrier we roll with: no one perfectly presents their front plates to the threat and your weak side is fairly exposed even when you're engaging something to your immediate front in a close contact.

 

[markppcli]

I'd say I'm a big fan of being able to pack out my armour if the environment or task makes sense to do so (which is more common than you'd think), which is why belt kits and chest rigs will always be something I advocate for.

Protection is huge, and not just from frag, we need the ability to have hard side plates in whatever future armour carrier we roll with: no one perfectly presents their front plates to the threat and your weak side is fairly exposed even when you're engaging something to your immediate front in a close contact.

The idea of humping out your armour is flawed, deeply. It comes from the idea that the threat is direct fire from an enemy detecting visually by soldiers on the ground. Thats simply not going to be the case. If you're detected on a patrol you will be engaged by indirect or drone fire and they aren't going to wait for you to unload your bag to grab armour. Ukrainian SOF does their infil in full kit for that exact reason. Yes it sucks, but so does dieing.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'd say I'm a big fan of being able to pack out my armour if the environment or task makes sense to do so (which is more common than you'd think), which is why belt kits and chest rigs will always be something I advocate for.

Protection is huge, and not just from frag, we need the ability to have hard side plates in whatever future armour carrier we roll with: no one perfectly presents their front plates to the threat and your weak side is fairly exposed even when you're engaging something to your immediate front in a close contact.

And then there's the invisible killer: blast.

 

[markppcli]

Sorry I wanted to add this in. We teach that the infil is always the most dangerous portion of a patrol. So why would we wear our least protection during the most dangerous phase?

 

[PuckChaser]

Sorry I wanted to add this in. We teach that the infil is always the most dangerous portion of a patrol. So why would we wear our least protection during the most dangerous phase?

Because we've built a culture of unfit, soft soldiers. We have ceramic training plates which are "dangerous" on the range so our troops can't even train to shoot with armor on properly. We constantly prioritize literally anything else during a work day other than PT, especially in CS and CSS trades.

 

[MedCorps]

Because we've built a culture of unfit, soft soldiers. We have ceramic training plates which are "dangerous" on the range so our troops can't even train to shoot with armor on properly. We constantly prioritize literally anything else during a work day other than PT, especially in CS and CSS trades.

Is there are directive somewhere which prohibits the use of training plates on a range? If so, can you point me in the right direction?

 

[PuckChaser]

Is there are directive somewhere which prohibits the use of training plates on a range? If so, can you point me in the right direction?

I've been looking as well. No idea if its a Bde rule, a base rule or something someone made up. Couldn't find it in BGL381 which is where it should be.

 

[MedCorps]

I am guessing this is BS JNCO laziness which has crept into the realms of fake regulation / policy / practice.... but I am happy to be proven wrong.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Because we've built a culture of unfit, soft soldiers. We have ceramic training plates which are "dangerous" on the range so our troops can't even train to shoot with armor on properly. We constantly prioritize literally anything else during a work day other than PT, especially in CS and CSS trades.

Them: We need to move the troops 2 kms.

Us: No problem, we'll march there.

Them: No, marching is 'abuse of troops', we need to wait for the trucks.

Us: <wait longer for the trucks to arrive than it would have taken to march 2 kms>

 

[IRepoCans]

The idea of humping out your armour is flawed, deeply. It comes from the idea that the threat is direct fire from an enemy detecting visually by soldiers on the ground. Thats simply not going to be the case. If you're detected on a patrol you will be engaged by indirect or drone fire and they aren't going to wait for you to unload your bag to grab armour. Ukrainian SOF does their infil in full kit for that exact reason. Yes it sucks, but so does dieing.

And I specifically mentioned when it makes sense to do so, such as: hot weather tropical environments such as the jungle; long range ski based movements in the arctic or sub-arctic; and alpine and mountain environments (oddly enough, environments that the Ukrainians don't have any experience in and where short endurance UAS have extreme difficulty operating). There are cases where being able to pack out your armour is useful to enable movement and/or mitigate exhaustion during the infil if feasible given enemy MDCOA and MLCOA.

I'm sure as hell not wearing my frag vest and plates when I'm lead climbing or when I have to swim a water feature to establish a rope line.

 

[IRepoCans]

Because we've built a culture of unfit, soft soldiers. We have ceramic training plates which are "dangerous" on the range so our troops can't even train to shoot with armor on properly. We constantly prioritize literally anything else during a work day other than PT, especially in CS and CSS trades.

The main issue isn't so much that they're dangerous (other than producing secondary frag and spalling if struck) is that training safety doesn't require you to have ballistic plates on during live fire manoeuvre ranges until you add explosives to the mix (there are some bases that have modified their RSOs to make that a requirement). There's also a massive shortage of both ballistic and training plates, with the first time most non-infantry folks seeing them is on PDT and on tour.

 

[markppcli]

And I specifically mentioned when it makes sense to do so, such as: hot weather tropical environments such as the jungle; long range ski based movements in the arctic or sub-arctic; and alpine and mountain environments (oddly enough, environments that the Ukrainians don't have any experience in and where short endurance UAS have extreme difficulty operating).

UAS can operate in the arctic, and in jungles. Thats a poorly thought out argument. You will be located, you will be targeted, if thats an FPV or by a recce fires complex it makes no difference.

There are cases where being able to pack out your armour is useful to enable movement and/or mitigate exhaustion during the infil if feasible given enemy MDCOA and MLCOA.

Mitigation of exhaustion is a poor reason to accept higher casualties from the most likely result of dismoinnted movelent. Being located and targeted isnt MDCOA or MLCOA, thats just reality. Training guys to ditch armour at every opportunity and citing "exhaustion" is bad leadership, having it in your ruck is the same weight, and now its not available when you and your guys need it.

I'm sure as hell not wearing my frag vest and plates when I'm lead climbing or when I have to swim a water feature to establish a rope line.

I'd suggest lead climbing is a low probability task for everyone outside of SOF. I'd love to see the number of times anyone has done that in a military conflict in the last 70 years. If we're swimming our way across water obstacles, guess what, we're getting targeted because the enemy is also not stupid and will observe them.

 

[markppcli]

Them: We need to move the troops 2 kms.

Us: No problem, we'll march there.

Them: No, marching is 'abuse of troops', we need to wait for the trucks.

Us: <wait longer for the trucks to arrive than it would have taken to march 2 kms>

I've not once seen that scenario

 

[markppcli]

I am guessing this is BS JNCO laziness which has crept into the realms of fake regulation / policy / practice.... but I am happy to be proven wrong.

I think it was more about driving to have actual armour instead of fake shit on live ranges.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I've not once seen that scenario

You clearly don’t hang around with 39 CBG then…

… where ‘C’ does not stand for ‘Commando’

 

[boredtoon]

The main issue isn't so much that they're dangerous (other than producing secondary frag and spalling if struck) is that training safety doesn't require you to have ballistic plates on during live fire manoeuvre ranges until you add explosives to the mix (there are some bases that have modified their RSOs to make that a requirement). There's also a massive shortage of both ballistic and training plates, with the first time most non-infantry folks seeing them is on PDT and on tour.

The training plates are incredibly brittle and will shatter if dropped. At some point someone made the call to not shoot in them for fear of little ceramic shards being propelled upwards into the face and neck. However, this was never codified into an actual policy. Depending on your range staff were, you may or may not have shot in training plates. When VanDoos ran ranges, we had to take them out, but if the RCR ran the range, we put them back in.

Also, at least in 31 CBG, it was directed at least starting 2 years ago that no range will be conducted without plates. The brigade pushed 10-20 sets of ballistic plates to all the units, and more are available from brigade for use.