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China and the Tibetan situation - Boycotting the Olympics - POLL: vote know

Should the 2008 Olympics be Boycotted?

  • Should Canada/Commonwealth boycott - YES

    Votes: 14 30.4%
  • Should Canada/Commonwealth boycott - NO

    Votes: 28 60.9%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 4 8.7%

  • Total voters
    46

1feral1

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I hate talking politics, but not only with China's actions regarding Tibet, but what about their other human rights abuses?? Should the games be boycotted?

You decide.

Australia will be going (France might not), but the PM has recognised there is problems with Tibet and China,  a visit from the Dali Lama in Australia will again aggrivate relations between the PRC and Australia.

The PM has also announced that Chinese security agents (as used in France- and who attacked activists) will be banned from Australia during the torch run thru Canberra later this month.
 
Don't boycott the games.  Bring the mass media spotlight to the games.  Put China on the map, as it were. 

If people feel that they should restore the autocratic and theocratic regime in Tibet, fine.  Stop buying crap made in China.
 
Wesley  Down Under said:
The PM has also announced that Chinese security agents (as used in France- and who attacked activists) will be banned from Australia during the torch run thru Canberra later this month.

It's about time! Friggin' Ministry of State Security/Guo An Bu agents! :blotto:
 
One of my friends actually just posted a thing about this on facebook.

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=11031098579
So you want to boycott the 2008 Olympics - A foray into mythbusting

Usually I dismiss protests and demonstrations as events organized by a small, passionate, and probably well-informed group of people. I dismiss them because to me, they are events attended by a large, uninformed/misinformed, and bandwagon-hopping mob. What really caught my attention this time was the sharp twang of annoyance at misinformation that went through me as I read the news. China and Sudan, China and Burma/Myanmar, China and Tiananmen, China and Tibet, Protests outside the Chinese embassy, Olympic flame harassed in London, Olympic flame planned to be harassed in Paris. It was as if everyone suddenly developed a selective conscience, or an extraordinarily large amount of people had been grossly misinformed. That, or I was living in a government-spun bubble of the Glorious People's Republic. (I hope those that are reading, who also possess strong feelings on this subject matter, will note that the preceding sentence was a stab at humour)

Given the general misinformed nature of the protesters (but I hold adamant that a small number of protesters have actually thought about the issue), it should be said that the pro-Chinese government side is not all rosy either. With such names as Don't free Tibet because the Dalai Lhama is an asshole dictator, it becomes hard to take them seriously.

Take Two

There are two dichotomies that I'd like to make: that between the state and the culture, and that between politics and sports. The latter has probably already sent some readers into a venomous diatribe about the poor brain-washed author. Politics and sports should not be mixed. In reality, they often are. The 1936 Olympics in Berlin was a clear platform for the National Socialists to broadcast to the world. It should be noted though, that the athletes, staff, and majority of the organizers did not have connections to the Nazi party. The participants tried to keep the politics and sports separated, while the state tried to mix it. Likewise, I would wager that the majority of participants, organizers, volunteers, and others connected with the 2008 Olympics have politics far off in their list of "things-to-tie-to-the-Olympics". It is obvious that these Olympics are a debutante ball for the PRC government. Given the sensitive nature of the culture of honour/shame in a Confucian society, the PRC government has downplayed the explicit political ties. I have always liked the maxim that two wrongs do not make a right. If the PRC government implicitly involving politics with the Games is wrong, then what about explicit political groups directly tying the Games to politics?

The other dichotomy that I mentioned is that between the state and the culture. That is to say that the PRC government and the Chinese people are not interchangeable terms. Political groups trying to put pressure on the PRC government over a myriad of issues advocate a boycott of the Olympic games. Understandably, the PRC government will suffer from both bad press domestically and internationally. However, an actual boycott (which thankfully does not seem likely at all) ends up hurting both the feelings and pride of the Chinese people. In a formulation of Kant's Categorical Imperative, the needs and happiness of the 1.2 billion Chinese people outweigh any pressures on the happiness of the 73 million Chinese Communist Party members. It just so happens that because of bullish nature of China's economic growth that the majority of Chinese citizen tolerate and even like (oh noes! *note: sarcasm again) the PRC government. Contrary to majority Western media depiction, the PRC is not a police state with Stalinist terror forces. Most of the time, the CCP worries about the feelings of the people (as internal unrest is their one true fear), not the other way around. Still, a distinction between the government and the culture/people should be made.

Steven Spielberg

Dear Steven quit as one of the artistic directors of the opening ceremonies a few months ago. My question is, did he not know about the PRC government's foreign relations and domestic policies beforehand?

The Issues - one by one

Sudan


Many countries invest in Sudan. But because China happens to buy 60-70% of Sudan's oil, they are targeted. The first choice to target would be Sudan itself, but since it evidently has not worked (as Sudan is conducting trade as normal with mostly non-Western countries), the next candidate should be Sudan's largest trading partner. Western countries have had investments in Sudan, even in Darfur, before 2002. When the Western media popularized (yes, I say popularized, as the issue did not just pop up one day) the situation in Darfur in 2002, all Western companies pulled out. Most of them signed over their operations to friendly or subsidiary Indian or Chinese companies to avoid the media fallout. While a problem indeed, Darfur's cause has been essentially manufactured through emotionally-charged language on part of the Western media. It's the Darfur conflict, not the Darfur genocide. Please realize that the word genocide is (unfortunately) thrown around with impunity by the sensationalist media and the emotionally blackmailing NGOs. The figure of 200 000 dead and 2 million displaced is actually the data from a model done by an American professor in 2002. The same professor later retracted those figures, citing inaccuracies in his modeling formula. But those numbers are printed and reprinted by NGOs (who have a noble cause, but use slightly insidious ways to gain publicity) and the mainstream media networks, citing the figures to each other (ie how to create your own cited facts 101). The UN study has found Darfur to be a conflict zone, not a genocide zone, as have many other articles in peer-reviewed journals. It has also been happening years before 2002. The media spins an emotion-filled and morally righteous picture, but it does not detract from the fact that Darfuris are suffering. Boycotting the Olympics for publicity in hopes that the PRC government will somehow miraculously solve the conflict in Darfur, Sudan, is, to say the least, a little bit naive. The Darfur conflict is a complex issue to which there are no simple solutions, especially not ones that involve a third party who is influenced by misinformed mobs parroting the sensationalist media line. But I agree that the Chinese government should positively influence and coax the government of Omar al-Bashar into solving the Darfur conflict...oh, but they're already doing that.

Burma/Myanmar

When the monks marched last year, the Western world (and many others not in the Western world) marched with them. It looked like the tipping point for a military junta that has, for too long, oppressed its people. Where were the protesters in the West before then? I support Aung San Suu Kyi as much as the next person in Canada, but how do the protesters in Toronto, or London, England, or Paris, France claim any moral superiority if they only protest when everyone else is? When the very plight of the monks, who have always suffered, were being trumpeted by the sensationalist media?
But we should boycott the Olympics because then Beijing will use its influence to make Burma all nice and democratic. Please, neither the Burmese nor the Chinese are simpletons. What clout Beijing has in Burma is economic. The political clout comes from years of non-interference of internal affairs...which would understandably evaporate if China starts criticizing the junta publicly. While influential, Chinese economic support/clout with Burma is neither supreme nor irreplaceable. Burmese timber, oil, and gas are happily bought by India or Burma's neighbours in ASEAN. With an increasingly competitive world commodities market, should China threaten Burma economically, her regional neighbours would be more than happy to pick up the slack. Still, I hope for the development and liberty of the Burmese people. Short of an outright invasion or fermenting internal dissent (of which the CIA is ridiculously good at), there is not much any outsider, even China, can do to influence the junta led by Than Shwe and his generals.

Tibet

Ah, Tibet, where to begin...a history lesson would be nice.
There seem to exist in the West a myth about the history of Tibet. Apparently before the 1951 invasion/retaking (depending on your view point) of Tibet by the Chinese Communist Party, Tibet was an Himalayan Shangri-La, where everyone trusted, and was happy, in religion and the Dalai Lama ruled peacefully. Even the staunchest Tibet-independence supporters (well, informed ones at any rate) will dismiss that conception of Tibet as childish and naive. Tibet, starting with the Yuan dynasty, has been under the influence of central Chinese administrations while remaining either independent or autonomous up until 1959. Tibetan society was feudal in nature, with the landowners being the lamas of the monasteries and the aristocracy. The vast majority of the Tibetan people were serfs and peasants working on the land of the lamas and aristocrats. It was not a perfect kingdom but a rather harsh theocracy similar to medieval Europe. The Gelugpa sect, of which the Dalai Lama is the most influential member, took hold in the late Yuan/early Ming dynasty through a series of Machiavellian moves against rival sects. During the Qing dynasty, Tibet was under the administration of Lamas who were subordinate to the Manchu emperors. Then the Republic of China. Then a period of autonomy/independence during the Japanese invasion of China. Then the PRC troops entered in 1951. The treaty made in 1951 promised full autonomy. When the terms of the treaty were slow in being implemented, resentment rose. The CIA, ever resourceful, incited and supported a rebellion in 1959, starting in western Kham (look up a map of Tibet, it'll be easier that way), Chamdo, and finally to Lhasa. The revolt was crushed, and the Dalai Lama fled into exile.
Now...it is my belief that the Dalai Lama in 1959 was not to be held responsible for his actions, as at the tender age of 24, he was far too inexperienced in politics to be cognizant of the underlying geopolitical implications. I personally believe that the Dalai Lama is a genuinely nice guy who probably deserves his Nobel Peace Prize. What I have issues with though is his advisors and the Tibetan exile population in general. The 1959 revolt was largely supported by the lamas and the aristocracy. Why? Because they lost the most in communist-style land reforms. As the principal landowners in Tibet, the lamas (via the monastery) and the aristocrats saw all their wealth evaporate. Those who were used to being feudal lords now had to toil beside their serfs in the field. It is my belief that these lamas and aristocrats influenced the young Dalai Lama in 1959 and continue to try to do so to this day. It is largely because of these advisors that the PRC government refuses to negotiate.
Here I must recommend an article in the 1st March issue of the Economist about this topic. I do not think that the PRC government is using the correct balance of soft and hard approaches in Tibet. The people of Tibet no doubt wish for the return of the Dalai Lama, but no one wants a return to the feudal lifestyle under the lamas. Unfortunately, the PRC government will not/can not engage in dialogue with the Dalai Lama just by himself, and he himself is causing resentment among the Tibetan exiles because of his conciliatory approach.
The protesting of the Olympics by Tibetan exiles for publicity is quite selfish. It amounts to nothing more than Britney or Anna Nicole Smith's publicity stunts. The Dalai Lama goes on tour lecturing, promotes peaceful reconciliation, and has shown he is willing to compromise with the PRC government (by affirming the One China principle and by the refusal to endorse boycotts). I do not like to parrot, but I do think the Economist has it right when they said that the economic solution that placated unrest in other parts of China is not working in Tibet. I think that the PRC government should attempt to engage the Dalai Lama, ignoring his advisors if they must. But to use the Olympics as a method of protest is just a sad and selfish publicity stunt.

Closing comments

Those who advocate a boycott frequently claim a moral higher ground or such. Those that argue and rail against that point to Western abuses of human rights with regard to the Native Americans, African Americans, and Europe's colonial past. I'd like to make two points here.
1) The fact that the West has committed human rights abuses is irrelevant when judging whether China's actions were right or wrong.
2) The fact that Western human rights abuses happened means that protesters cannot claim a moral high ground.

A typical response by nationalistic (and possibly hormonal) teenage Chinese-American/Canadian youths to Tibet is "well you don't see us supporting native american independence!!11! biatch!".
1) That has nothing to do with whether China is right or wrong in Tibet
2) Read around, facts are not that hard to come by
3) Responding to uninformed/misinformed comments about China with equal nonsense definitely does not help.

Joining on the boycott bandwagon is just a way for people to try to "get involved". Unfortunately, there are far better ways to further those causes (whether right or wrong), and boycotts and suggestions of boycotts saddens and probably infuriates many other people.
"But there is so much publicity...it's the perfect chance!"
Yes, there is going to be a lot of publicity, and perhaps it is the perfect chance to be an attention whore. If otherwise the media does not care about the issue, it is neither the group's fault nor China's fault. It probably is the media's fault. Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

So I think I wrote the one thing in two sittings, probably with different tones. I'd more than happy to clear up any ambiguities and further points. Feel free to repost this (sans mon nom) anywhere, especially facebook groups. I hope comments will actually be properly worded, n n0t liek d1s n stuff liek 0mfg b0yc0tt 1s liek teh ghey n stuff rite.
 
This Boycott thing raises it's head once again... same as Moscow, Los Angeles and Montreal.

Remove the politicians from the equation... let the Athletes have their games and compete against themselves.

Ensure that all Politicians, Heads of state AND the diplomats stay home and let their absence SCREAM .....

THAT will do more to embarass the Chinese than anything else IMHO
 
geo said:
Remove the politicians from the equation... let the Athletes have their games and compete against themselves.

Ensure that all Politicians, Heads of state AND the diplomats stay home and let their absence SCREAM .....

Speaking of which: ;)

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=4620046

UK's Brown Won't Attend Olympics Opening
British PM Gordon Brown Won't Attend Opening Ceremony of Beijing Summer Olympics
By BRYAN MITCHELL
The Associated Press
LONDON

British Prime Minister Gordon Brown will not attend the opening ceremony of the Beijing Summer Olympics, a spokeswoman said Wednesday.

Brown's office said he was not boycotting the Olympics and would attend the closing ceremony.

Brown has been under intense pressure from human rights campaigners to skip the opening ceremony on Aug. 8 to protest Beijing's ongoing crackdown in Tibet.

Brown's decision not to attend the opening ceremony was not aimed at sending a message of protest to the Chinese government, the spokeswoman said on condition of anonymity in line with government policy.

She said the decision had been made weeks ago and was not a stand on principle.

"He had never planned to attend," she said. "There is absolutely no change in our position."

Last month, Brown said he planned to attend the Olympics, without mentioning the opening ceremony. Visiting French President Nicolas Sarkozy said he was debating not attending the opening ceremony
.

London is hosting the 2012 Olympics and British officials were expected to attend events throughout the games.

Olympics Minister Tessa Jowell will represent the British government at the opening of the Beijing Olympics.


Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Copyright © 2008 ABC News Internet Ventures
 
Perhaps the modern Olympics should just be held in Greece every four years. This would be a nod to the original Olympics and would remove a lot of the political garbage that happens as this floating drug fest resurfaces every four years in yet another lucky country.  ::)  Personally, I'm sick to death of the Olympics and would be happy to see them disappear all together.
 
So much for the boycott.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/07/06/g8.summit/index.html

Bush: Olympic boycott would insult Chinese

TOYAKO, Japan (CNN) -- President Bush on Sunday defended his decision to attend next month's Olympics opening ceremony in Beijing, saying that to boycott "would be an affront to the Chinese people."

Speaking to reporters ahead of this week's summit of the Group of Eight industrialized nations in Japan, Bush said he did not need to skip the ceremony to show his position on religious freedom and human rights in China.

He said if he failed to attend the Games it would "make it more difficult to be able to speak more frankly with the Chinese leadership."

Bush said he would raise concerns when he meets Chinese President Hu Jintao at the Olympics, but he was also "looking forward to cheering the U.S. athletes." He said it was good for them "to see their president waving that flag."

Japan's Prime Minister Yasuo Fukuda also said he would attend the opening ceremony despite concerns about human rights in China that prompted some other European leaders to boycott the event.

Bush and Fukuda took questions from reporters at the picturesque lakeside resort of Toyako on the northern island of Hokkaido, where the G-8 summit will begin Monday. Watch Bush, first lady arrive in Japan »

Bush said he and Fukuda discussed the United States' recent decision to lift some sanctions against North Korea and remove the communist nation from the State Department's list of state sponsors of terror.

Bush assured Japan that the issue of North Korea's past kidnappings of Japanese citizens will not be ignored by the United States. He told Fukuda that he was "fully aware of the sensitivity of the issue in your country" and that "the United States will not abandon you on this issue."

North Korea has admitted to abducting 11 Japanese citizens -- to teach its spies Japanese language and culture -- but had insisted the abduction issue was resolved.

Holding a book about a young Japanese girl abducted by North Korea, Bush said as the father of two girls he "can't imagine what it would be like to have a daughter disappear."

Bush said North Korea's recent destruction of a water-cooling tower at its now-defunct nuclear facility and its declaration outlining its plutonium program are positive steps, but there are "more to be taken."

Lifting sanctions would not weaken the pressure on North Korea to be forthcoming on the abduction issue or in nuclear negotiations, the U.S. president said.

Bush said North Korea remains the most sanctioned nation in the world and that "delisting did not get rid of their sanctions."

Fukuda, who is chairing the G-8 meetings, said global warming would be high on the agenda but that he could not predict what might result from this week's talks.

Fukuda said he believes the United States "has not lost its sense of direction" on the issue.

"Our views are gradually converging," he said.

Bush said the United States "will be constructive" in the global warming talks "but if China and India do not share that same aspiration, we're not going to solve the problem."

Bush said the United States and Japan leads the world in research on clean technologies. He said Japan's advances in battery technology will some day mean that Americans "will use batteries in cars that look like cars, not golf carts."

As world leaders began arriving for the summit, more than 1,000 people protested in northern Japan against the event. Demonstrators urged leaders to take urgent measures to stop global warming, grant indigenous people greater rights, combat world poverty and battle discrimination.

Soaring oil and food prices and possible steps against Zimbabwe were also likely to be high on the agenda at the summit.

With fewer than 200 days left in his term, Bush says he will press other G-8 leaders to follow through on their commitments from earlier summits, but has warned there is nothing he or anyone else can do in the short term about oil prices.


Bush's main economic goal at the summit may be defensive, said David Gergen, former adviser to presidents Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton.

"What's essential in this summit for George W. Bush is to make sure the world economy does not spin downward," he said.

Bush has downplayed what he and other G-8 leaders can accomplish on the economic front. "One thing we need to make clear when I'm with our partners is that we're not going to become protectionists, that we believe in free trade and open markets," Bush said Wednesday.

A former administration official who served on the National Security Council under Bush says the G-8's purpose is not to come up with quick solutions.

"This is not a meeting of heads of state that leads to a treaty. It's really kind of public opinion shaping and trying to get people to agree that issues are important," said Michael Green, now with the Center for Strategic and International Studies.
 
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