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Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread

I may be completely wrong but if North Korea were to attack South Korea the North Koreans wouldn't exactly walk over the south. In terms of advancement the south koreans are pretty far ahead compared to the north, except for nuclear weapons, which when they have an ally like the US then it kind of evens things out a little.
I may be wrong though
 
a_majoor said:
Concentrate on your principles of marksmanship first!

It will be marksmanship by the megaton, with over 350,000,000 Communist Chinese fit and available for military service, we might get their first 1,000,000 but not their second in a conventional war!

Food for thought   ;D

And what about the ANZUS Treaty??? If the   the SHTF, the US is in and so are we (Australia)   :warstory:

Lets hope its just sabre rattling.

Wes

 
Frightening to think of what would happen if it isnt just sabre rattling.... we'd all be screwed either way.Lots of economies would go haywire, we'd go poor along with the United States, losing our biggest consumer.... assuming the Chinese dont defeat us.  :-\

With the US tied up as much as it is, what would it take to stop them? like wes said, 350 million..... it doesnt matter if they arent very well trained, if theres 50 of you in a defensive somewhere along taiwan with 3,000 chinese coming to attack you, theres nothing you can do about it.Theyll run your trenches untill you expend all of your ammo, and they still have plenty of guys to go around.You're royally effed at that point.Theres just too many.
 
jmackenzie_15 said:
Frightening to think of what would happen if it isnt just sabre rattling.... we'd all be screwed either way.Theres just too many.

Hence why a conventional war would not work. I am afraid the sun would be rising   several times before 10 am on the first day alone.

Wes
 
From what I've read concerning China's military capabilities, they simply don't have the ability to take Taiwan. The PLA lacks the air and naval resources to a) transport sufficient troops and equipment b) overcome Taiwanese defences (the place is an island fortress afterall) c) get through the US Fleet.

However, they can make a LOT of trouble. Their surface to surface missiles and their navy (especially submarine assets) could wreak havoc on and around Taiwan, and threaten the stability of the whole region. Their military may be huge, but most of it is outdated equipment and untrained soldiers, despite recent modernization efforts. The nuclear angle is, of course, worrying to say the least...

But, I just don't see the gain to China in taking on Taiwan. Taking on Taiwan means war with the US and Japan (two largest economies in the world, as well as the top two defence spenders), Australia and Canada (main suppliers of raw resources), and various other regional states such as South Korea, Thailand, Russia (thats a long border to defend), India (also with a huge army), etc... They might be able to hold their own for a bit, maybe even preserve their territorial integrity, but the cost would be huge, they'd be back to 1949. Wouldn't be pretty for anyone. 

Personally, I see the increasing distance between the Chinese capitalist economy and their totalitarian government as a strain that has to break eventually. The contradictions in such a system, coupled with the massively uneven development of the country, make China in my eyes unstable in the long term.
 
Wesley H. Allen said:
It will be marksmanship by the megaton, with over 350,000,000 Communist Chinese fit and available for military service, we might get their first 1,000,000 but not their second in a conventional war!

Food for thought   ;D

And what about the ANZUS Treaty??? If the   the SHTF, the US is in and so are we (Australia)   :warstory:

Lets hope its just sabre rattling.

Wes


What about a guerrilla war? I mean, how many of those conscripts can fight? ;) ....still, it makes you realize how vulnerable Canada could be despite our isolation if it decides to stay small militarily after the U.S. Navy and Air Force cease dominating the seven seas. Of course the Liberals wouldn't see it coming.

But as long as we let China buy us up, I guess we won't be going to war with them--bad for business. :blotto:
 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/2941.0.html

I made a post on this awhile ago with an attached news article. It's quite an interesting read on how the Chinese would take Taiwan.

Personally, I don't see why it is a huge deal. Is Taiwan really worth a large-scale war, especially considering the sizable majority of the the population that would welcome a Chinese takeover?
 
Enfield said:
But, I just don't see the gain to China in taking on Taiwan. Taking on Taiwan means war with the US
And China might think this is the best time to push the button, considering US op tempo.
and Japan (two largest economies in the world, as well as the top two defence spenders),
Is there a guarantee that Japan will join the war? They won't, without US support and I don't know what their constitutional amendment went, but I thought Japanese military is forbidden to deploy overseas?
Australia and Canada (main suppliers of raw resources),
China may risk losing Aussie and Canadian trade if it is decide that PRC would lose face if they don't go for Taiwan. Oriental people are crazy in many ways I tell you. :)
and various other regional states such as South Korea,
Will be too busy to ensure that Kim Jong Il doesn't do stupid, so SK military is tied up.
Thailand,
Don't see a reason why Thailand would join, esp. having to deal with aftermath of the tsunami, plus China can throw few divisions at Thailand border to tie up whatever Thailand wants to use.
Russia (thats a long border to defend),
Since China is Russia's biggest military hardware buyer, unless Russia can get money or some sort of huge advantage somewhere else, I doubt Russia would want to fight China.
India (also with a huge army), etc...
Again, similar story with Thailand. Would you want to fight in the Himalayas and Tibet?
They might be able to hold their own for a bit, maybe even preserve their territorial integrity, but the cost would be huge, they'd be back to 1949. Wouldn't be pretty for anyone.
The question is can PLA(N) get enough of best of PLA divisions onto Taiwan. For any other nation that wants to invade mainland China, human wave attacks would probably cause horrendous casualties that no nation would want to sustain, except maybe Russia. (And I don't think Russia has as many men as Chinese to throw away)
 
Short answers, various nations will have to decide if an agressive Imperial China is a threat to them. Nations on China's borders will feel the heat much more than nations farther afield. Commercial nations like Japan, India and South Korea may decide that China's use of military power against Tiawan could be an invitation for China's leadership to use military power to coerce them out of markets China covets. Russia may want to secure their borders against Chinese incursions into western Siberia. All these potential threats need to be accounted for, pulling valuable resources away from the Tiawan front.

Vast numbers of Chinese troops might indeed be a threat to cut off or unsupported units, but this is very much like arguments about the "Russian Steamroller" prior to WWI. Although the Russians could pull off surprises, they simply were not capable of commanding or supporting he vast quantities of manpower in an effective manner. American military theory  is very well developed when it comes to identifying and attacking enemy centres of gravity, particularly large scale conventional armies like the Chinese can field. I think the US can pull off some nasty surprises outside of the "conventional warfare" box.

A side thought; since China has been trying to gain resource bases in Canada, an element of economic warfare might take place between the United States and China with Canada as a theater of operations. Canada has signaled to the United States we do not care to support them, and China only sees us as "hewers of wood, drawers of water", so the effect on Canadian corporations and the economy as a whole could be horrendous, and just "collateral damage" in the larger war. American "Grand Strategy" might well be to take the time to identify choke points in the Chinese economy and apply economic pressures to make gaining resources as difficult and expensive as possible.
 
The primary problem I see is the more foreign investment that takes place in China, the more leverage they have to act freely against Taiwan, or threaten to nationalize billions in foreign-owned assets.  In essence, they have been inviting our dependence and using to their advantage.  Cunning is a gross understatement....




M.    ???
 
oyaguy said:
...

I personally think the greatest challenge facing the Chinese {mainlanders}, is there will come a day of reckoning of how the country should be governed. The Chinese aren't blind to democracy. It will be a delicate balancing act for China's leaders, as they want to liberalize the economy, without giving up their powers. Generally the liberalizing of the economy, will lead to the liberalizing of the politics. ...

I agree.

Sometimes the full trappings of democracy - elections, representative and responsible legislatures, etc - are the last things to arrive on the scene.   (Witness Canada: we still have an appointed legislative chamber ... there to exercise sober second thought lest elected representatives of the hoi polloi* get too uppity and decide, for themselves, how to govern themselves.)

It seems to me that the preconditions for democracy are the ones on which the Chinese are, now, working, including, especially:

The rule of law - this is the toughest nut to crack because, like all long lasting, stable oligarchies, the Chinese Communist Party members believe that they, alone, know what is 'best' for the Chinese people.   (This view is not unique to oligarchies; most social democratic movements or parties believe much the same thing.   Broadly, only liberals (of whom there are precious few in the Liberal Party of Canada and, probably, none at all in the ever so morally certain Young Liberals and the Liberal Women's Commission) believe that the people are wise enough, en masse to govern themselves.)   In conservative democracies (Singapore) and illiberal democracies** (followers of the French model) the rule of law obtains, despite the wishes of the governing classes and the natural governing party.

Equality at law - this is also tough because it means that all, governed and governors alike must be fully and equally accountable - even Jean Chrétien, in Canada, maybe ...

Regulatory independence - all but the most unrepentant of the Austrian School economists admit (even if they don't quite believe) that some degrees of regulation are required to establish and maintain some degrees of fairness and openness in public institutions, including governments and the marketplace.   This one is, also, giving some Chinese some heartburn - especially the most senior officials of the Ministry of Defence which is a big and largely unregulated actor in the markets, through its ownership of the biggest players in several industrial sectors and its responsibility for the prison system which, in turn, operates factories (using what some regard as slave labour or, at least, unfairly (maybe unlawfully) subsidized labour) in many sectors.

It seems to me that the much celebrated spread of democracy in about 75% of the UN's 200+/- members states is grossly overstated because all it means that someone or other got elected, once; but, since none of the other conditions are operative, democracy can hardly be said to have taken root; elections ≠ democracy.

I think that the growth of market capitalism will spur the growth of the institutions and attitudes (above) which are, in my view, essential preconditions for democracy.   Investors need the rule of law, equality at law and regulatory independence to protect their investments (those who eschew such protections are gamblers, not investors) and the Chinese need investors (including domestic investors), for the long term, rather than gamblers.   Once capitalism has done its work then democratic reforms will, likely, follow along rather naturally.

It is not clear to me that China will morph into an Anglo-American style liberal democracy or even into a rather illiberal social democracy; I suspect that it, like Singapore will become a conservative democracy, which may be more in tune with China's conservative culture.   I do believe that China will become a democracy and, as I have written elsewhere, one of our foreign policy goals must be to contain Chinese ambitions while it makes that (long - 35+ years) transition.   (I do not mean Kennan style containment, rather I mean engaging China as a competitor and avoiding turning it into an enemy.)   It seems to me that democracies, including conservative democracies are less inclined to see war as a solution to political problems - even though, sometimes, wars are quite necessary and are the only acceptable solutions to some political problems.

----------

* I know hoi means 'the' but the hoi polloi has been accepted for centuries.

** This is Fareed Zakaria's idea; see: http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/other/democracy.html
 
. Despite the obvious differences in their creation, I can't help but want to draw comparisons between Taiwan and Quebec; were the Parti Quebecois to win the next provincial  election, and decide to pursue unillateral independence (with the support of a larger number of like-minded voters than Taiwan's DPP) would Canada be justified in taking military action to force reunification? (Pretend the government would play along!)

I think this is a red herring. The federal government could legally end separatism if it had the nerve. Quebec is a province, legally. It's not our fault our feds have decided to weaken the federation.


I think the real comparison is between the U.S. and Canada. If the U.S. tried to give us the Taiwan treatment, are there too may U.S. sympathizers in the Canadian military?  I hope not.
 
a_majoor said:
A side thought; since China has been trying to gain resource bases in Canada, an element of economic warfare might take place between the United States and China with Canada as a theater of operations. Canada has signaled to the United States we do not care to support them, and China only sees us as "hewers of wood, drawers of water", so the effect on Canadian corporations and the economy as a whole could be horrendous, and just "collateral damage" in the larger war. American "Grand Strategy" might well be to take the time to identify choke points in the Chinese economy and apply economic pressures to make gaining resources as difficult and expensive as possible.

Here's an anecdote: I work for a Taiwanese company.  Everywhere we operate around the world (including PRC) the word "China" is part of the company's proper (registered) name.  Except in Canada: it was determined that use of "China" in the company's name would be too provocative ... they are laughing up their sleeves at us!  I suspect the PRC sees Canada as a crack in Western solidarity that is to be exploited: Canada refusing to support Taiwan/US/Japan will give them all the moral imperative they need.
 
The Chinese leadership may decide to take the age old "out" of creating a foreign crisis/enemy to deflect attention from the failures that are happening at home. Here in Canada, we may actually have more leverage than we think; Canadians do not have to purchase items "made in China", and business do not have to have dealings with China either. This would require that the short term advantages of dealing with China be outweighed by the disadvantages. (This does not mean a formal trade embargo).

This requires the public be constantly exposed to the reality of life in the PRC; the cultivation of alternative low cost producers (India, Indonesia), and, dare I say it, cultivating the American market even more to keep our producers and resource companies firmly planted in "our" market; and pushing for access to the EU (as part of the Western civilization; they are prefferable than a potential opponent civilization).

As has been pointed out, China has severe internal problems. Restricting their access to our resources and markets may induce enough strains to pull the Central Committee's eyes off Tiawan, and buy us some more time to prepare to deal with the new Imperial power. This is also an argument to continue to develop conventional military capabilities to deal with "symmetric" warfare, alongside the expanding capabilities to deal with "asymmetrical" warfare.
 
a_majoor said:
This requires the public be constantly exposed to the reality of life in the PRC

How is this going to happen?  The Canadian Government does not want this ...
 
So let me get this straight. By not picking up items marked â Å“Made in Chinaâ ? should sort them out, if we all do it, then its a major economical problem for them. With a supper power this will fail. All you need to do is look at the worlds history. Any country in economical hardship most often will go to war with its neighbour. So if you have a big supper power â Å“Tigerâ ? and you stab it with a stick, do you think its going to move? No he's going to rip your head off. But if you coach him, or give him something he needs, he will follow. Now well he ever be your friend, no but at least you know where he is and you can assist with his change for the better. China now, to this present administration is like a good game of chess. You don't want to win in the first 15 moves or you will just anger him; but rather, let him think he's wining and prolong the game until change has come and it's to late for him to react. Know your enemy and exploit his weakness.  :cdn:       
 
Block 1 said:
So let me get this straight. By not picking up items marked â Å“Made in Chinaâ ? should sort them out, if we all do it, then its a major economical problem for them. With a supper power this will fail. All you need to do is look at the worlds history. Any country in economical hardship most often will go to war with its neighbour. So if you have a big supper power â Å“Tigerâ ? and you stab it with a stick, do you think its going to move? No he's going to rip your head off. But if you coach him, or give him something he needs, he will follow. Now well he ever be your friend, no but at least you know where he is and you can assist with his change for the better. China now, to this present administration is like a good game of chess. You don't want to win in the first 15 moves or you will just anger him; but rather, let him think he's wining and prolong the game until change has come and it's to late for him to react. Know your enemy and exploit his weakness.   :cdn:        

I don't know what history you're looking at, but most miltary expansionism over the last 4,000 years has generally been based on a previous massive economic expansion.   In essence, the improved economy allowed the nation to redirect its resources from substinence activities to imperialist objectives.  

RE:   your chess analogy - before I jump all over this, please elaborate on your master plan because on first pass, your statement seems a trifle simplistic and lacking any substance.




Matthew.       :army:

P.S.   You're misspelling "super"....and "winning".
 
Or maybe we just wait them out ...

China now has 46 million government bureaucrats, new statistics revealed yesterday, a number almost as great as the entire population of England.

...

Its excessive and corrupt bureaucracy was regarded as one of the principal causes of the decline of imperial rule. Yet there are now 35 times as many people on the government payroll, even as a proportion of the population, than at the time of the collapse of the Qing dynasty in 1911. Corruption aside, today's civil servants are also expensive, requiring official cars, holidays masquerading as training sessions and receptions.

All in all, the cost to the nation, before salaries, amounted to £50 billion, according to state media.

The figures were disclosed by Ren Yuling, a delegate to the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, a parliamentary advisory body. "The contingent of bureaucrats in China is expanding at an unprecedented speed," he said. ...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/03/08/wchina08.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/03/08/ixworld.html
 
Talk about red herrings... ::) I was enjoying the read up until the last point
 
I think the real comparison is between the U.S. and Canada. If the U.S. tried to give us the Taiwan treatment, are there too may U.S. sympathizers in the Canadian military?  I hope not.

Ok who borrowed my tinfoil hat....I have a feeling I am going to need it.  ::)
 
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