CIC branch buttons for army CIC officers ... what do you think?

[ctjj.stevenson]

Good evening everyone!

I know that I am not an army CIC officer, and therefore am not in the best position to have a recommendation for them, however, I would think that the army CIC officers should follow their traditions from their element, and have a set of CIC branch brass buttons for their uniforms.

I know that an army CIC officer could be spotted from a kilometre away seeing that they have everything to mark them as a CIC officer as compaired to naval and air force CIC officers, however I would believe that this could be a nice idea to show some branch pride.

However, seeing that cost is also an issue in everything that has to do with uniforms, I would probably propose that these buttons be sold from the CIC regional kit shops (like www.joedrouin.com for the Eastern Region's CIC Officer's Circle) so that military spending will not go nuts by adding new uniform parts for the CIC.  

Do this seem like a good idea.... (an example can be found attached with this message)

Thank you kindly and have a nice day!

 

[ctjj.stevenson]

I've seen that people are equally interested and not interested by this proposition. I would like to read your reasons please.

Thank you kindly and good day! 

 

[George Wallace]

Are you out to advertise for Droin Enterprises?

 

[my72jeep]

As A CIC Officer I have no desire or right to wear buttons, badges, or other affiliated unit stuff if I wanted to wear it I would have joined that unit not the CIC. Every time I turn around  some one is comming up with a new way to show the Military who the Army CIC Officers are. I'm proud to be CIC but please no more CIC branch crap that I must buy.

 

[ctjj.stevenson]

Are you out to advertise for Droin Enterprises?

Not in so may words ... however, I do believe that it is a great service that is offered by Joe Drouin Enterprises, and I think that it could not hurt anyone really to take a look. They do have some great stuff.

As for army CIC officers wearing affiliated unit accoutrements, this was a discussion during the late 1970s (as I recall from my CIC history book). It was decided that CIC officers should have their own accoutrements because they a knowledgable in training cadets, and not in the duties of their affiliated units.

On this note, good day!

 

[ctjj.stevenson]

As for the CIC history book that I mentioned, it is called Par devouement and it is offered in the Eastern Region's RCIS and I believe that it is in French only.

The CIC cap badge did not come into existance until 1975 (if I am not mistaken) and before then, CIC officers would wear any insignia that they "wanted," including the old RCN, RCAF or Cadet Services of Canada insignias, the CF recruit cap badge or affiliated unit cap badges.

In 1975 the badge was large an wasn't liked by CIC officers because of it's look ... and therefore, CIC officers refused to wear it. Later on, the authorities changed them for how they look today. During the time were they changed the CIC cap badge for the present one, an offer was placed on the table to allow army CIC types to wear afflilated unit insignias. However, seeing that the Navy and Air Force CIC officer would have to continue wearing the CIC cap badge, this was seen as unfair. For a little time, army CIC officer did wear affiliated unit insingias, however from 1980 onwards, all CIC officers had to wear the CIC branch insignias.

I will look back at the book and come back an post more accurate information. This was done from memory therefore I want to double-check my info (as the good student of history that I am).

Good day!

 

[primer]

ctjj.stevenson  you must really like these buttons here and in cadet-world.com give it up Like MY72jeep said the more I have to buy from the Kit shop the more I hate the Kit Shop

 

[ctjj.stevenson]

Good morning!

I read the comments of Capt "Primer" and I wanted to say the following to him...

With all due respect sir or ma'am, I had an idea that could have maybe let army CIC officers have something new for themselves. From what I've read in my CIC officer history book, it said (more of less) that CIC army officers should probably one day have their own branch buttons for their uniforms instead of using the general service buttons. That is why I've spent some time to see the opinions of people before I try to learn how I can maybe make a formal request for it. It is understood that I would not have to live through any change because as a naval CIC officer, I would not have to live through the consquences of this change.

As for Mr. Taylor, here are some of the few points that I could find in my book:

1) It was in 1973 that Rear Admiral Falls wrote a memo discussing about the subject that Army CIC officers were still wearing the Cadet Services of Canada insignia, and that organisation disappeared in 1968 with the creation of the then Cadet Instructors List.
2) The first CIC cap badge was created by June 1975, however it was the tri-force CIC badge for everyone, and the collar insignias were elemental. This insignia did not please to most CIC officers, and refused to wear it.
3) In 1977, seeing the discontent within the ranks of the CIC, the first signs were seen that the authorities would change the insignias of CIC officers.
4) However the same year, after a proposition made, CIC army officers were permitted to wear the affilitated unit badges. However this is for a very short time, because the decision was reversed and now no CIC officer could wear any insignia that is not their own.

I hope this answers any questions that you may have.

Good day.

 

[ctjj.stevenson]

Intelligere is not a Pte.   Pte Turvey was the "hero" of a book of the same name by Earle Birney which many regard as the "unofficial" history of the branch to which I belong.   I didn't have any questions, Mr. Stevenson.   I surely can't compete with the official history book you have cited, as all I can offer is the 30-yr old perspective of one who was with the CIL in the 1970's.

I am sorry for the mistake, and I made the modification to my original message Mr. Taylor (and this explains how come someone was a officer for many years, and became a private ... it did not seem right).

Well, that is all. Have a nice day!

 

[HollywoodHitman]

How would buttons or insignia do anything but signify membership in an organisation or Regiment that they are not a part of?

If you were to wear the insignia, cap badge or Regimental accoutrements of an infantry regiment, people would think you were an infantry officer.........If you were not, but people thought you were, that could be considered dishonest; at any rate you would be misrepresenting yourself. CIC officers wear the same uniform as a commissioned officer in the CF Regs or Reserves. The CIC insignia is designed so that they may be identified as a CIC officer.

I was a cadet years ago. I was quiet happy with and respectful of the officers I had. I could also argue that when I was in Army Cadets, it was still an 'Army' organisation, designed to promote awareness and stimulate an interest in the CF.........

Anyway, I digress.

My $.02

 

[ctjj.stevenson]

How would buttons or insignia do anything but signify membership in an organisation or Regiment that they are not a part of?

If you were to wear the insignia, cap badge or Regimental accoutrements of an infantry regiment, people would think you were an infantry officer.........If you were not, but people thought you were, that could be considered dishonest; at any rate you would be misrepresenting yourself. CIC officers wear the same uniform as a commissioned officer in the CF Regs or Reserves. The CIC insignia is designed so that they may be identified as a CIC officer.

I was a cadet years ago. I was quiet happy with and respectful of the officers I had. I could also argue that when I was in Army Cadets, it was still an 'Army' organisation, designed to promote awareness and stimulate an interest in the CF.........

Anyway, I digress.

My $.02

This is my arguement Master Corporal. CIC officers should be recognised as CIC officers, and should be proud and honoured by this heritage. There was a time in the past were CIC officer wore what they could find, however that was before that they were permitted to have the new green (at the period) CF uniform. And it took 7 years for the CIC insignia to be created.

I believe that CIC officers should follow the traditions from within the element of their uniform "colour." This is why I am proposing CIC buttons for army CIC officers. Even though it will not do much, I do think that "regimental" buttons looks better on the uniform as compaired to the general service buttons.

Thank you for your comments, and have a nice day!

 

[HollywoodHitman]

Your element is denoted by the colour of your uniform. Green for Army, Blue for Air Force etc.

Yes, the generic buttons look less appealing than Regimental insignia, but again, my point is, if you are not for example a member of an Infantry Regiment, why would you want to let people believe that you are? If you join a Regimental Association, you do not become a member of the Regiment, you become an associate member.

Many units dont let their soldiers or officers wear the cap badge until they have passed their specific qualifications to be in their job. They work very hard to get there and maintain their qualifications, which is what their uniforms in some ways signify. The dress uniform for instance bears witness through trade badges, collar dogs, medals and the likes, your trade quals, branch of service (Inf etc) and tours of duty.

That you wear a uniform and are given a Queens Commission is a fairly big honour and one that is bestowed upon you with very little military training overall......I have seen many CIC officers who do not look professional in their uniforms because there are for instance no fitness requirements that I am aware of.....Or if there are, they are bare minimum standards at best with no mandate to monitor their maintenance.........I know there are CIC officers who are former serving soldiers / officers, however in my experience most are not.

The existing uniform and insignia for the CIC is issued as is because someone in the military establishment felt it was distinct enough and represented the position accordlingy.

I think CIC Officers hold a valuable position in the community. I spent 5 years in the Cadet system and I look back on them with fondness and am glad for the experiences I had. I think what you do is very important, if done right. That being said, I don't believe you should be allowed to wear the insignia of my Regiment unless you are or were a serving member........

The Cadets on the other hand, should embrace the traditions and values of the Regiments they one day may join. Thats a different topic altogether.

 

[ctjj.stevenson]

Hi again!

I am wondering one thing on what you said.  Are you thinking that I want the CIC to wear the buttons of affiliated units? That is how I am understanding your text, and that was not what I was proposing. I was proposing a distinict button for CIC army officers, instead of the general service button.

I also believe that no CIC officer should wear items that is not theirs to wear. We should not pretend to be Canadian Fighter Pilots, or a member of the R22eR or a submariner. We should be proud CIC officers, and respect the job that we do, and I respect what you are saying.

I am sorry if I used any terminology that could have misrepresented my main point.

Good day Master Corporal!

 

[HollywoodHitman]

Well said,

I may have read more into your post that you intended. Your argument is well thought out and your intention is much more clear now.

Good Day to you too

 

[my72jeep]

OK army CIC officers wear brass CIC shoulder tiles on DEU's, cloth CIC's on combats and dress shirts and a CIC cap badge what do we need buttons for. I'm CIC now, I know that, why put on one more useless piece of kit just so every one else knows.this is just my thoughts.

 

[primer]

OK army CIC officers wear brass CIC shoulder tiles on DEU's, cloth CIC's on combats and dress shirts and a CIC cap badge what do we need buttons for. I'm CIC now, I know that why put one more useless piece of kit just so every one else knows.this is just my thoughts.

Well said 

 

[PViddy]

I'm quite happy with my unifrom the way it is.  Mind you, us air types don't have "CIC" on our DEU's just our elemental CIC cap badge for distinction.


regards

PV

 

[Excolis]

the only reason you the air and sea types dont have CIC on their shoulder boards or shoulders, is because it is an army tradition.  as for the phitness testing for CIC, it has changed now.  New applicants wanting to join the CIC have to do the same express test as the reserves.

 

[PViddy]

the only reason you the air and sea types dont have CIC on their shoulder boards or shoulders, is because it is an army tradition.  as for the phitness testing for CIC, it has changed now.  New applicants wanting to join the CIC have to do the same express test as the reserves. 

I believe that is incorrect.

The reason the Army branch wear the CIC accoutrements is because it is tradition (maybe where you got confused) that they wear the same cap insignia as there affiliated units.  The CIC badges help distinguish them from the that unit.  Air and Sea wear CIC cap insignia (rather than an affiliated units), therefore it is not necessary for Air and Sea to wear CIC on epaulettes, collar brass etc. as Reg. and Pres will be able to identify us by that cap insignia.  I am not Army so you Army CIC ladies and gents pound on me if i am wrong .


New applicants joining the CIC have to go through various courses, same as any other branch of the Military.  The "express test" that you may be referring to is called the Basic Officer Course - Pre Programmed Instructional Package (BOQ - PIP for short).
Every candidate muct study the PIP thten write the PIP test before going on the BOQ course.  Completing the BOQ course with a passing grade is mandatory in order to recieve a Queen's Commision and consequent promottion to 2Lt.  You have 3 years from being enrolled to complete the BOQ course, most do it as soon as they can.


regards

PV

 

[Bean]

Actually the Express Test is not the PIP but it is a physical fitness evaluation that is required of CF personnel.