City of Toronto’s HUSAR team deployed to Elliot Lake

[Civvymedic]

I agree Bruce the phrase "dead heroes can't save lives" is one of the first things we learned in Paramedic school. That being said I have certainly put myself in situations where I could be injured or worse to be able to care for another. My choice but I certainly heard about it later from my superiors. It's a tough balance, but a choice all the same. It's difficult to asses the situation from media reports but working in the civilian system I know how much weight the Province puts on liability and worker/medic and FF safety. I just wonder if liability concerns outweigh the ability and wil of the rescuers to work in that situation. Either way Im sure this is a situation that will weigh on the minds of the rescuers for the rest of there lives in any case. Kudos and respect to them regardless of the outcome.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

I agree Bruce the phrase "dead heroes can't save lives" is one of the first things we learned in Paramedic school. That being said I have certainly put myself in situations where I could be injured or worse to be able to care for another. My choice but I certainly heard about it later from my superiors. It's a tough balance, but a choice all the same. It's difficult to asses the situation from media reports but working in the civilian system I know how much weight the Province puts on liability and worker/medic and FF safety. I just wonder if liability concerns outweigh the ability and wil of the rescuers to work in that situation. Either way Im sure this is a situation that will weigh on the minds of the rescuers for the rest of there lives in any case. Kudos and respect to them regardless of the outcome.

+1. If the search resumes despite warnings that the building collapses, and then it does collapse, will all the impassioned pleas from the populace hold any weight when the Incident Commander is in court having violated Ministry of Labour guidance notes?

 

[Civvymedic]

Agreed. I wonder if the Premier in his direction to EMO was able to waive certain liability's to allow the search to continue. I think he must have offered certain assurances in that regard.

 

[bridges]

If this were a movie (or the new Hawaii-Five-O), the commander would be gathering all the troops (away from Ministry of Labour officials) and saying they can each choose to back out, and then asking who's with him. 

Life doesn't work that way; rules/regulations will generally prevail, along with the desire not to lose even more people.  I wonder what the individual rescuers and THEIR families think of this situation.     

I'm with Civvymedic, kudos and respect to the rescuers no matter what happens.  They have no apologies to make to anybody.   

 

[mariomike]

What specific resources and personnel can the Military offer to a situation like this?

"What can the federal government do for Elliot Lake?:
The federal government is standing on guard, ready to send the military to Elliot Lake, Ont. ...":
http://www.globalnews.ca/what+can+the+federal+government+do+for+elliot+lake/6442668740/story.html

"Mr. Neadles said they have not requested military attendance."

"Mr. Neadles" is the TPS staff inspector who leads the rescue effort:

"Elite Toronto volunteer team leads rescue effort in mall collapse:
Staff Inspector Bill Neadles is the leader of Toronto’s Heavy Urban Search and Rescue (HUSAR) team sent to Elliot Lake. It’s an all-volunteer team of firefighters, paramedics and police officers that is world renowned for its wealth of expertise in extracting people trapped inside collapsed structures – HUSAR teams had a role in the 9/11 rescue effort.":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/elite-toronto-volunteer-team-leads-rescue-effort-in-mall-collapse/article4373046/

 

[old medic]

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/06/26/elliot-lake-mall-collapse-rescue/

Elliot Lake, Ont. — After hours of hearing nothing but maddening silence from the twisted wreckage of the Algo Centre Mall, hundreds of Elliot Lakers gathered around the building Tuesday to keep watch over their hard-won attempt to pull life from the crippled mall.

“They just brought that in today,” said local resident and retired miner Andre Rheaume, referring to a multi-stage crane. “We lost three days waiting for that.”

On Tuesday, a carpet of cigarette butts littering the sidewalk was the only evidence of a near-riot spurred by Monday night’s surprise news that only hours after rescuers had reported hearing tapping from within the rubble, they were calling off the search and summoning a demolition company.

“The demolition company that would be hired certainly would have to put into the plan a very respectful removal of the deceased that are in that building currently,” said Bill Neadles, spokesman for Toronto’s Heavy Urban Search and Rescue police team, at a 5 p.m. press conference on Monday.

Enraged locals soon began adding their names to a citizens’ committee, pledging to carry on the search themselves. By sunset, a crowd of 90 nurses, retired miners and support workers marched on a line of OPP officers blocking the front doors.

Members of the Toronto rescue team were quickly bussed back to the mall to end the standoff. A late night call to Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty helped defuse the tension, with a promise of mining rescue robots and military advisors.

Still, locals suspected fears of unrest may have spurred the surprise Tuesday morning arrival of a busload of Toronto Police officers.

“They told us they were here to take debris out. Police don’t take debris out, rescuers take debris. These police are here to stop a riot,” local entrepreneur Jack Quinte told a TV news crew.

Local Sandra Kelter made the rounds early morning urging locals to keep their cool. “More people getting killed, more people getting hurt isn’t going to help,” she said.

To the outside observer, the solemn Tuesday night gathering might have at times been mistaken for a summertime picnic. Families sat in colourful lawn chairs and ate free sandwiches and sunflower seeds handed out by the Salvation Army. One searcher trotted his rescue dog into the crowd, allowing a pat to anyone interested.

Locals occasionally drifted into jokes, sports and local affairs, before the chat was checked by the inevitable realization that, only meters away, crews were busy dismantling a tomb.

“We know everyone in this town, so we know everyone in there,” said Sue Fex.

Many acknowledged that the efforts were probably coming too late. “If anybody survived after three days in that, good luck,” said one Elliot Laker.

While the city’s current claim to fame is having Canada’s highest concentration of seniors, the Northern Ontario city built its downtown with uranium mining.

Veterans of mining disasters past dotted Tuesday’s crowds, each offering their own assessment of the “dawdling” operation.

“If it’s unstable, you stabilize it,” said Aurele Beaupre, a mine rescue veteran from the nearby Denison uranium mine. “We’d have broken through the wall, gone in with supports and inflated an air pillow.”

In the mid-1980s, at Denison, they mobilized rescue crews after a tunnel collapse that ultimately killed three miners. “They didn’t stop, they didn’t give up — you just don’t quit when you know you’ve got life in there,” said Mr. Rheaume.

Gathering around Tim Hortons coffees, old-timers bemoaned a rescue corps seemingly kneecapped by “red tape.”

Although it was one of Elliot Lake’s prime social and commercial centres, the mall’s dilapidated state has been an object of local ridicule for more than a decade. Cascades of water poured from the ceiling on rainy days, forcing mall employees to tiptoe around buckets filled with runoff. “We all knew it was coming,” said high school student Patrick McDonald.

 

[GAP]

Feds cut HUSAR funding
By Antonella Artuso, QMI Agency
Article Link

The Stephen Harper government is fighting its deficit by slashing funding to all five Heavy Urban Search and Rescue (HUSAR) units in Canada, including the Toronto team on scene at the collapsed mall in Elliot Lake.

Four HUSAR teams remained on the sideline Tuesday while the federal government offered up the help of the military in Elliot Lake.

Public Safety Canada announced in April that it would no longer provide Joint Emergency Preparedness Program (JEPP) funding which supports the search and rescue teams after March 2013.

Julie Carmichael, a spokesman for Public Safety Minister Vic Toews, said in an e-mail that it will be up to the provinces, which are responsible for the oversight and base funding of HUSAR, to make decisions about the units’ future.

“Emergency management is a provincial responsibility,” Carmichael said.

The federal government has put $1.4 million into the HUSAR team engaged in Elliot Lake, she added.


In total, the five HUSAR teams received $2.2 million in 2009-10; $2.75 million in 2010-11; $2.89 million in 2011-12 and $1.87 million in 2012-13.

Following the 9/11 destruction of the World Trade Centre, HUSAR teams were trained to conduct search and rescue missions in collapsed structures using dogs and electronic search equipment.

“The teams breach, shore, lift and remove structural components, use heavy construction equipment to remove debris, and medically treat and transfer victims,” according to the Public Safety Canada.

Teams are based in Vancouver, Calgary, Manitoba, Toronto and Halifax.

The decision to end federal funding for search and rescue initiatives has drawn criticism from first response organizations, including a letter-writing campaign by the British Columbia Association of Emergency Managers.

A notice from a federal public safety official, posted on the association’s website, explains that the funding cut is part of the Harper government’s Economic Action Plan 2012.

“We have carefully and critically examined our emergency management activities and identified deficit reduction measures that streamline government operations, provide value for taxpayers while ensuring that the safety of Canadians is paramount,” the notice says. “The original objectives of (the JEPP) program, namely to enhance local emergency preparedness and response capacity, have been met.”
end

 

[GAP]

The situation facing Elliot Lake rescue crews: Graphic
Article Link
National Post Staff  Jun 27, 2012

 

[bridges]

A friend used to travel to Elliot Lake on business, and stayed in the hotel on the top floor of that mall, until the water infiltration & general decrepitude finally got to him and he asked his employer to book the other hotel in town instead.  I've been in that mall as well.  It's disturbing to think of this happening now. 

This extract from the link old medic posted above is what puzzles me the most:

In the mid-1980s, at Denison, they mobilized rescue crews after a tunnel collapse that ultimately killed three miners. “They didn’t stop, they didn’t give up — you just don’t quit when you know you’ve got life in there,” said Mr. Rheaume.

Why wasn't something like this done here?


Edit:  I meant to include this part:

“If it’s unstable, you stabilize it,” said Aurele Beaupre, a mine rescue veteran from the nearby Denison uranium mine. “We’d have broken through the wall, gone in with supports and inflated an air pillow.”

 

[Wookilar]

As a general guess, liability and the complexity of the cave-in.

I'm an ex-miner (as is my Dad) so I know a few things. A cave-in underground can do lots of crazy things, but if the geology around it is fairly stable, the rescue teams have a couple of options.

I am no urban rescue guru, but these guys are dealing with a constantly shifting mess of deteriorated concrete and rebar with unknown bits and pieces of machinery holding things up (hence the issue with the escalator frame) and there is no way of knowing (or even guessing really) when that particular piece of steel is going to let go or even to know how much it is holding up.

I'm not sure I could send people in knowing fully well that everything could let go at any time and I would just be adding to the body count.

Add to that the hugely increased liabilities in the last 30 years, you can't tell me that there are people in charge that have that in mind as well.

Right now, the recovery operation is being done for those outside the mall, not for those inside.

 

[Scott]

As a general guess, liability and the complexity of the cave-in.

I'm an ex-miner (as is my Dad) so I know a few things. A cave-in underground can do lots of crazy things, but if the geology around it is fairly stable, the rescue teams have a couple of options.

I am no urban rescue guru, but these guys are dealing with a constantly shifting mess of deteriorated concrete and rebar with unknown bits and pieces of machinery holding things up (hence the issue with the escalator frame) and there is no way of knowing (or even guessing really) when that particular piece of steel is going to let go or even to know how much it is holding up.

I'm not sure I could send people in knowing fully well that everything could let go at any time and I would just be adding to the body count.

Add to that the hugely increased liabilities in the last 30 years, you can't tell me that there are people in charge that have that in mind as well.

Right now, the recovery operation is being done for those outside the mall, not for those inside.

This about sums it up.

I know it seems simple, but it most certainly is not.

 

[bridges]

This about sums it up.

I know it seems simple, but it most certainly is not.

I don't think anyone here said they thought it was simple. 

The quote from mining rescues about the air pillow was intriguing.  Yes, we know mines are different from buildings.  Presumably there's a reason an "air pillow" wouldn't have worked in a building - not sure what that is, exactly.  Maybe the greater proliferation of metal and machinery that Wookilar described?

Early reports this morning are that the remains of one person have been brought out - and, unbelievably, the family of another person are apparently being given reason to hope that something good might happen.  Sure hope that's not in vain.  Thoughts & prayers to everyone involved.

 

[mariomike]

The quote from mining rescues about the air pillow was intriguing.  Yes, we know mines are different from buildings.  Presumably there's a reason an "air pillow" wouldn't have worked in a building - not sure what that is, exactly.  Maybe the greater proliferation of metal and machinery that Wookilar described?

Some comparison of mine and urban rescue here:

"Some residents suggested calling in mine rescuers given the many mines in the region and the expertise in dealing with people trapped in underground collapses.

Alex Gryska, manager of Ontario Mine Rescue in Sudbury, Ont., said that idea wouldn't fly.

For one thing, he said, the urban search and rescuers have sophisticated technical expertise and specific equipment the mine responders wouldn't have.

At the same time, he said, mine rescue involves the same kind of "delicate" weighing of the risks to emergency responders.

"If this was an underground mine collapse, we would be exercising the same kind of cautions that they would be exercising," Gryska said from Sudbury, Ont.

"When teams are told to proceed, they need to know they're going to do it in safety. The last thing that we'd like to see happen during a rescue event that we have casualties of rescuers." ":
http://metronews.ca/news/canada/277643/first-rule-of-rescue-dont-make-things-worse/

 

[Wookilar]

An air pillow is just that, a big inflatable pillow. They can work well, but in limited circumstances. I do not think that with the debris we are talking about in a structure like this, that an air pillow would work. They are tough, but with the amount of twisted steel, conduit and rebar in there, not that tough.

Also, if you inflate something like this, the debris is just as likely to slide off the side as anything else. Air pillows work best in confined spaces where you can control the sides.

I understand the frustration of the locals (i.e. non-experts), but I know enough about mining to know that I don't know anything about urban heavy rescue in a collapsed shopping mall.

 

[Scott]

I don't think anyone here said they thought it was simple. 

I never said anyone did.

My experience with collapse rescue is limited and thus I cannot throw out anything very educated on the use of air bags for one. However, I can offer that the types of bags we use for vehicle extrication generally come in two types: high pressure and low pressure. High pressure for shorter and heavier lifts, low for lighter and higher lifts. With a vehicle you'd use a tremendous amount of cribbing to re-set the bags to continue lifts. One of the dangers in any wreck is that something will pierce the bag(s). The you have a massive release of high pressure air and the likelihood that someone will be close to that, as well as the coming down of whatever you are trying to lift. It's not hard for me to see them applying the same caution here - but I am not there and, again, my experience with collapse is limited.

Mine rescues don't always see people being rushed in, either. Westray ought to sum that up. Yes, rescuers went in, but they were also turned back. They did not recover all of the victims and a decision was made, based on the situation and the expertise of those involved, that no reasonable chance of survivors existed - and they called it off and effectively entombed the remaining men.

My blind faith, run-in-there mentality evaporated when I was a firefighter in the school and watched the events of Worcester, Mass. unfold. The Chief had to physically bar the door to keep more men from running in to help their mates.

Like the previous two decisions, I am sure this one was gut wrenching for the rescuers to make. And I completely understand the feelings and emotions that the families and others are experiencing.

 

[bridges]

I never said anyone did.

OK...  I guess you threw me off there when you said "I know it seems simple...".  It doesn't seem simple at all and judging by their comments, I don't think anyone else took that view either.

Thanks for the addl info on air bags. 

According to CBC.ca's Twitter feed, family members are being escorted away, & at least one fire truck is packing up & leaving.  Not sure what that signifies but they have not yet confirmed whether they're still considering it a "rescue" - despite the odds.  An awful situation all around.

 

[mariomike]

National Post

"When it counted, high-profile rescue team failed, say readers":
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/06/30/paul-russell-when-it-counted-high-profile-rescue-team-failed-say-readers/

"Most of that anger was directed at the Heavy Urban Search and Rescue (HUSAR) unit brought in from Toronto."

“Come on Canada, these [HUSAR] people make way more money than we do, get better benefit packages and we won’t even mention the ridiculous early retirement they collect."

“What did they do the rest of the time?"

The rest of the time HUSAR paramedics respond to 9-1-1 calls in Toronto. TPS and TFS members would do likewise within their own departments.

"What was the cost of having them on stand by for six years?"

Toronto paramedics on the HUSAR team receive a premium of $450.00 per year.

An opinion on the subject from Firefighting in Canada:
http://www.firefightingincanada.com/content/view/12301/41/

 

[The Bread Guy]

From the OPP:

As a result of information obtained, the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) is now undertaking a parallel criminal investigation into the circumstances regarding the mall roof collapse in Elliot Lake on June 23, 2012.

The OPP Criminal Investigation Branch (CIB) began assisting the Office of the Chief Coroner for Ontario (OCC) with its death investigation into the deaths of two people.  The death investigation is continuing under the auspices of the Coroner's Act. The Ministry of Labour (MOL) is also conducting an investigation under the Occupational Health and Safety Act (OHSA). Both the OCC and MOL are fully cooperating with the OPP criminal investigation.

The OPP is asking anyone who believes they have information that may be important to this investigation to contact a special information line that has been established at 1-855-677-4636 (1-855-OPP-INFO).

The OPP will provide media updates with regard to this investigation as information becomes available.

OPP members from the East Algoma Detachment and OPP North East Region continue to ensure the site is secured.

 

[mariomike]

CANADA TASK FORCE 3 ( CAN-TF3 ) Toronto Heavy Urban Search and Rescue (HUSAR)

Response to Elliot Lake Commission of Inquiry Recommendations
https://www1.toronto.ca/City%20Of%20Toronto/Fire%20Services/Shared%20Content/Files/Elliot%20Lake%20Report%20(FINAL).pdf

Sustainability of the Toronto HUSAR Program

"HUSAR/TF3 should receive adequate funding to ensure that it is properly equipped and trained to respond to structural collapses in a timely manner with sufficient personnel and expertise. The Joint Emergency Preparedness Program (JEPP) funding should be reinstated by the federal government."

"In the absence of new and/or incremental funding sources, Toronto HUSAR may be forced to make some difficult decisions in terms of the sustainability of the HUSAR program."

Also,

"For 2016 Toronto HUSAR is planning to purchase drones with interior and exterior mapping capabilities with real-time viewing, recording and picture-taking, with the expectation that the drones will be used by the advance team to investigate, map and report back to incoming team members. Additional funding will be required to purchase the drones."