Class Action Suit against NVC & "Govt has no obligation to soldiers"

[Cloud Cover]

Brihard: that's a good post. It seems apparent that some people, mostly journalists and even some injured veterans themselves who have simply moved on, do not understand the distinctions you have described. It does seem to me there are benefits stacked upon benefits that have taken on various forms and shapes without double dipping. While not all of the benefits are gold plated, they do exist and they are deserved- I certainly hope that is not in question anywhere.  The features of the system that are not-so-endearing are the cases where there are actuarial disparities, the stress of post release delays, establishing, proving and constantly reproving disability, and then all of a sudden the crushing impact on VAC of so many climbing aboard a system that cannot function well with the scale and financial magnitude of it all. 

As to the posts above concerning whether the sacrifice, pain and suffering or a veteran is comparable and then worth less than the despicable people alluded to, the moral answer is a clear no it is not comparable and no it is not worth less. The outcomes have been, and will continue to be, absurd.

 

[PuckChaser]

As a reference (and since Thalidomide is in the news recently), here is what those sufferers got/are getting as compensation:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/understanding-canadas-thalidomide-compensation-deal/article24578777/

Original payment

In 1991, the federal government gave survivors of thalidomide a one-time payout of $8.5-million. That worked out to between $52,000 and $82,000 a person, depending on their level of disability. Advocates said the original sum fell far short of the mark.

Second lump-sum payment

Earlier this year, Ottawa offered lump-sum payments of $125,000 each for thalidomide survivors, about half of the amount requested by the Thalidomide Victims Association of Canada. The government also said it would make up to $168-million available as annual compensation, but it did not explain how the survivors would have access to that fund.

Annual pensions

The government provided details on the pension on Friday, saying victims of the drug can receive annual payments of up to $100,000, depending on the severity of their disability. Survivors will receive the money every year for the rest of their lives, Ottawa says, with no need to reapply or submit receipts. The compensation will not be taxed, and the first payments are expected to go out in early 2016. They include:

$25,000 – Survivors who were assessed in 1991 as having relatively mild disabilities, and received a lower level of compensation.
$75,000 – Survivors assessed at a higher level of disability in 1991.
$100,000 – Survivors with more severe disabilities will be eligible for a reassessment that could allow them to receive this maximum level of support.
Medical assistance fund

Ottawa said it would create an annual Extraordinary Medical Assistance Fund of $500,000 to pay for surgery and allow survivors to adapt their homes and vehicles to accommodate their disabilities. The government did not outline how the claims process would work, saying that would be determined in consultation with the Thalidomide Victims Association of Canada.

 

[TCM621]

If the election was held + / - say...5-7 day from Remembrance Day....maybe the public in general would really care about veterans and support to them.

People have said on here before that Canadian public support is " a mile wide but only an inch deep".  I think, myself, that assessment is overly generous.

A kilometer wide and a centimeter deep, that's the Canadian way.

 

[TCM621]

Brihard: that's a good post. It seems apparent that some people, mostly journalists and even some injured veterans themselves who have simply moved on, do not understand the distinctions you have described. It does seem to me there are benefits stacked upon benefits that have taken on various forms and shapes without double dipping. While not all of the benefits are gold plated, they do exist and they are deserved- I certainly hope that is not in question anywhere.  The features of the system that are not-so-endearing are the cases where there are actuarial disparities, the stress of post release delays, establishing, proving and constantly reproving disability, and then all of a sudden the crushing impact on VAC of so many climbing aboard a system that cannot function well with the scale and financial magnitude of it all. 

As to the posts above concerning whether the sacrifice, pain and suffering or a veteran is comparable and then worth less than the despicable people alluded to, the moral answer is a clear no it is not comparable and no it is not worth less. The outcomes have been, and will continue to be, absurd.

I think people would care less about the dollar figures and pensions vs lump sums if VAC could get their collective heads out of their asses and do the job they are supposed to do. They are currently closer to a 16 month application to award time than a 16 week determination time. Their front line people have limited access to relevant information or any power of help people. They have been "training new staff to resolve this issue" for like 4 years now.

The money is the easiest thing to focus on but the bottom line is that vets feel they are being treated poorly.

 

[BDTyre]

As a reservist who has received a disability award I'm in a bit of a different situation. I originally applied for two conditions: tinnitus and hearing loss. I receive full pop for tinnitus but zero for my hearing loss as it wasn't deemed to affect my quality of life (or something to that effect, it's been almost 7 years). I imagine that VAC reached this conclusion as I was (and still am) a serving member.

Now, my initial joy at seeing a decent sum of money in one go lasted a little while. And I made the money last too, but after 5 1/2 years it was finally gone, My joy was soured quickly when I realized that this amount was less than half of my civilian salary. True...I didn't "need" the money as I have a steady, full-time income. But it felt a bit insulting that this amount was intended to last me the rest of my life (which at the time could have potentially been 60 or so years). It came across as shut-up-and-go-away money.

Would I like a monthly pension? Absolutely I would. Because when (not if) I get medically discharged for hearing-loss (which I will claim as service related) I will now be out the additional $400 to $800 (after tax) I now earn per month as a Class A reservist. Again, I don't "need" that money, but that is still a decent chunk of money to not have. Consider also that now with my current condition, career choices I was in the process of making (and had put on hold to deploy) are now completely cut-off to me because I am medically unfit for those careers. A what-if, for sure, but at this point I can't even make that move to find out if it would pan out or not.

Does the government have a sacred trust with us? I believe they do. Not everyone is willing to risk life or limb, no questions asked. But is it to much to ask in return that if something were to happen and we can't resume a normal life that we are taken care of? I don't think it is. A precedent was set 100-years ago, and I think that counts for something. Of course, medical technology has advanced and certainly a higher percentage of disabled veterans can have a full career and earn a full income and maybe we can look at reducing a monthly pension in that case (and I would be one of those people). And for those that can't, they can retain full pension for life.

But honestly, the amount of money I received did not feel like compensation for a permanent life time injury. A monthly lifetime pension would be a little better as my injury is for life, but I'd rather not be in this situation.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I imagine that VAC reached this conclusion as I was (and still am) a serving member.

I am still a serving member; injured in 1992, filed in Sept 2004, was awarded monthly pension in Oct 2004 for 10% lumbar spine;  QOL is and always will be impacted and I've been in the whole time, both Reg and Res. 

But honestly, the amount of money I received did not feel like compensation for a permanent life time injury. A monthly lifetime pension would be a little better as my injury is for life, but I'd rather not be in this situation.

$370/month for me, and I'd give it all back to have a back again that is only as old as I am, and not have to worry about what birthday it will be that I am in a wheelchair.

I was surprised back in 2004 that the claim is only backdated to the month/year you file, not the month/year the injury was sustained.  The things you aren't told when you're signing the dotted line...

 

[Rifleman62]

Various video clips on the net with this:

Veterans Affairs Minister Seamus O’Regan says a lifelong disability pension for veterans will be revealed by the end of the year. The B.C. Court of Appeals ruled Monday against a veterans group fighting to bring back the previous pension system.

 

[BDTyre]

The end of the year is pretty close...

 

[meni0n]

House sits for one more week before winter break

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk

 

[PuckChaser]

They said revealed, not passed.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

No proof of course, but I have to wonder at the timing.

I'm sure the Trudeau gov't would be prudent to have a number of scenarios for the pension. I think it's possible that they were waiting for the B.C. court decision as to which one to roll out. Now that the case went against us, I tend to think we won't get the deal we would have, if Equitas had leave to pursue the lawsuit.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Agreed.  We're going to look like Lucy and Charlie Brown with a football.

 

[Gunner98]

Now, my initial joy at seeing a decent sum of money in one go lasted a little while. And I made the money last too, but after 5 1/2 years it was finally gone, My joy was soured quickly when I realized that this amount was less than half of my civilian salary. True...I didn't "need" the money as I have a steady, full-time income. But it felt a bit insulting that this amount was intended to last me the rest of my life (which at the time could have potentially been 60 or so years). It came across as shut-up-and-go-away money...

But honestly, the amount of money I received did not feel like compensation for a permanent life time injury. A monthly lifetime pension would be a little better as my injury is for life, but I'd rather not be in this situation.

What I hear a lot is that VAC gives young people a lump sum and they spend it foolishly and what they really should be offering is investment advice.  If you receive a decent sum of money ( as much as half your civilian salary tax-free) there are many real options to seek out financial advice on your own.

What I am reading here is that you burned through a decent sum of money in 5 1/2 years and now wish you could have received a monthly sum for the rest of your life.  That monthly sum would decline in 'real value' over the span of the rest of your life.

I took the lump sum I was offered/given ($100K+) paid cash for a used car, paid down my mortgage and invested the rest wisely wisely.  What I have and will continue to reap from it far exceeds the monthly sum that I would have been received.  You seem to be confused by past regret, present value and future value.

I would much sooner win a $100K Poker Lotto prize than win a cash for life lottery that pays me $250 per month for the next 35 years.  If you take the $100,000 of that prize and invest it for 35 years at an interest rate of 5% compounded annually it will be worth $551,601.54.  The $250 per month option if invested at the same rate/period will net you half that amount.  Try it for yourself:  https://www.getsmarteraboutmoney.ca/calculators/compound-interest-calculator/

 

[CombatMacguyver]

That monthly sum would decline in 'real value' over the span of the rest of your life.

I took the lump sum I was offered/given ($100K+) paid cash for a used car, paid down my mortgage and invested the rest wisely wisely.  What I have and will continue to reap from it far exceeds the monthly sum that I would have been received.  You seem to be confused by past regret, present value and future value.

I would much sooner win a $100K Poker Lotto prize than win a cash for life lottery that pays me $250 per month for the next 35 years.  If you take the $100,000 of that prize and invest it for 35 years at an interest rate of 5% compounded annually it will be worth $551,601.54.  The $250 per month option if invested at the same rate/period will net you half that amount.  Try it for yourself:  https://www.getsmarteraboutmoney.ca/calculators/compound-interest-calculator/

The old pensions were tied to the rate of inflation, so no it wouldn't decline in "real value".  The same with any pension.
Your second example also ignores inflation.  That $500k wouldn't have anywhere near the same "real value" 35 years from now.  Rate of inflation is usually around 3%, so a 5% interest rate gets you 2% a year (maybe), and that's only if you don't make any use of the cash for 35 years.  Lump sum payments are objectively inferior than pensions.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The old pensions were tied to the rate of inflation, so no it wouldn't decline in "real value".  The same with any pension.
Your second example also ignores inflation.  That $500k wouldn't have anywhere near the same "real value" 35 years from now.  Rate of inflation is usually around 3%, so a 5% interest rate gets you 2% a year (maybe), and that's only if you don't make any use of the cash for 35 years.  Lump sum payments are objectively inferior than pensions.

And, in the end, the reality is that we hire teenagers and train them to be good at attacking machine guns head on, not to be good financial managers.

Our bible is CFP 309 (3), not the Wealthy Barber. We therefore owe our teenagers, in later life, a little bit of due diligence and overwatch when it comes to longitudinal financial management, IMHO.

 

[Gunner98]

Rate of inflation is usually around 3%, so a 5% interest rate gets you 2% a year...Lump sum payments are objectively inferior than pensions.

Just cause you make guesses and do not research does not make you objectively correct!

The pension indexation rate effective January 1, 2017 is 1.3%.  So 5.0 - 1.3 = 3.7% which is almost twice what you guessed!

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/services/after-injury/disability-benefits/disability-award/da-calc

Annual Payment Amount: $4,571.75  x 35 = $160,011.25
Amount of Award: $100,000.00
Minus Partial Payout: $0.00
Decision Date: 2014-1-3
Payments over: 35 years

Since we are relying on opinions, IMHO I repeat I would rather subjectively enjoy my money and financial options up front, than keep getting a monthly pension long after I forget why I am getting it.

d&b - teenagers volunteer to join the CAF.....and in what conflict in the last 11 years (since intro of NVC) can you name that CAF teenagers attacked a machine gun head-on and earned a disability pension?  Few of these pensions result from such glorious feats!

 

[Lumber]

If the Government of Canada does not have a Sacred Trust owed to those who wear a uniform, does that same government still have the moral impetus to place those in uniform in a position of unlimited liability? 

I think this is the best part of your post, and should be an engrained part of a nation's constitution. If we are tools of the government who can legally be asked to sacrifice our lives, should the government not have unlimited liability for our welfare?

That being said, I still don't believe the lack of this sacred trust is enough reason to dissuade others from joining the CAF. Everyone's different, but I believe (naive as I may be, I'm still relatively young and less jaded then some of you) that we are employed for the benefit of the people of Canada, not the government of Canada. Unfortunately, we take our orders from the government, it the people, and we simply hope those orders are in the best interests of the people, not in the best interest of some politicians.

I realize this isn't always the case, and sometimes the strategic direction and operational taskings of the CAF ARE done only because of the self interest of some politicians. Nonetheless, I see this as a unavoidable evil. We signed up to protect Canadians should the need ever arise, but there hasn't arisen a need due to a lack of a direct threat to Canada, so what else is the government going to do with its big shiny stick?

And, from a completely different point of view, compared to a whole bunch of civilian jobs, the Canadian Forces is a relatively safe occupation, with much higher pay and benefits. Yes, if you get really injured doing something tha the CAF ordered you to do, you might not get as good treatment as even I believe you should, but the chances of such an injury happening in the CAF (in times of peace) are relatively small compared the potential for serious injury in something like logging, fishing or construction.

 

[Journeyman]

I think ....

:stars:
You've got 5-6 contradictory opinions here.  Maybe take a short time-out to work through what you believe.  :dunno:

 

[Teager]

d&b - teenagers volunteer to join the CAF.....and in what conflict in the last 11 years (since intro of NVC) can you name that CAF teenagers attacked a machine gun head-on and earned a disability pension?  Few of these pensions result from such glorious feats!

Afghanistan. I was 19 while on pre deployment training and 20 when I was finally in country. OP MEDUSA we were ordered to take the white school houses which had a dug in enemy. We were hit with 82mm, RPG, machine gun and AK fire. Although I wasn't wounded that day many others were and others paid the ultimate sacrifice including my section commander. There were also some there that were 19 so yes teenagers have been in direct combat and injured under the NVC. I was injured 2 weeks later.

 

[mariomike]

Yes, if you get really injured doing something tha the CAF ordered you to do, you might not get as good treatment as even I believe you should, but the chances of such an injury happening in the CAF (in times of peace) are relatively small compared the potential for serious injury in something like logging, fishing or construction.

I look at the CAF this way,

Public Safety Canada: "Public Safety Officers (PSO), such as firefighters, police, and paramedics, are personnel that provide immediate response to crises, putting their own safety at risk to aid the public and maintain public safety and security."
https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/2017-s011/index-en.aspx
"Compensation plans help provide a sense of security for the employee so that in the event of such an occurrence, they or their families will be compensated accordingly."