Class Action Suit against NVC & "Govt has no obligation to soldiers"

[MJP]

So true.  They don't give a damn about the CAF, RCMP, Public Servants, nor John Q Public.  They do give a damn if it affects their pockets.

Case in point:  Senate passed the Bill bringing in the GST, only after they amended it  to give themselves "GST Exempt" cards (like Treaty Cards).  Now this is the BS that we live with.

Unless you can "show me the money I am calling BS on your claim.  Don't get me wrong I dislike the response as well but lets not colour this topic with half truths and straw man arguments

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/myths/#m6
Myth # 6
Some individuals claim to be exempt from GST/HST. Some carry a card to "prove" their claim.

The Facts

GST/HST legislation does not provide tax exemptions for any individuals, and any card claiming such an exemption is a fraud. However, individuals with Indian status under the Indian Act may not be required to pay GST/HST on the purchase of goods and services under certain conditions. (For details, see Publication B-039 GST/HST administrative policy - Application of the GST/HST to Indians.)

Some consumers think that falsely claiming an "exemption" is an effective protest against taxes or a government. In fact, any resulting discount they receive is at the expense of the vendor. Vendors must remit tax on all taxable transactions, even if they have mistakenly failed to collect the GST/HST from an individual falsely claiming an exemption.

You may sometimes be led to believe that you are not paying GST/HST because a vendor may promote a sale by advertising "Pay no GST" or other similar claims. The vendor in these cases discounts the price so that the final, tax-inclusive cost is the same as the advertised, pre-tax price.

 

[Teager]

Alright so what happened in court over the last two days has been posted. The Crown conceded that Canada has to provide care and compensation for Canadian Veterans and does this through the NVC. So now they are doing some back peddaling.

Here is the link to the last 3 days of court. I don't know when a decision will be handed down for a class action.

http://www.canadianveteransadvocacy.com/blog/

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

This is not the Canada I know. The Canada I know is not perfect, but at least that Canada attempts to help.

You are right, it's not the Canada you know,.....it's a courtroom where lies, half-truths and general weaselship got flung together, stirred up and eventually, hopefully, a half decent desicion can be made from all that.  It's nothing but negotiation and you always start from a postition that puts the other side "off".

What did you expect them to start with,...."We were wrong and we're sorry"?

[it would have been nice in this case] :nod:

 

[The Bread Guy]

<broken record>

If there was a solution that would compensate wounded/disabled vets in a way that most people would consider fairly, and cost ZERO extra bucks, it would have been implemented.  As long as it would cost more to do this, there's no political appetite for it to happen, no matter WHICH party is in power.

Also, when it comes to making things happen if politicians want them to happen ........

All we need is a Minister (or higher) to stand up and say, "the rules must change, and they will change".  After all, we've seen other instances where a Minister wants something (examples here, here, here, here, here and - even if it's not entirely within government rules - here), and it happens pretty quickly.  While the bureaucrats may be partly to blame re:  how they wield their discretion, if the rules were changed properly, the bureaucrats would have less wiggle room (or have to wiggle in a different direction).

Hey, I can dream, can't I? 

not to mention this most recent example.

If the politicians really want these changes, they will happen.  It would cost waaaaaaaaaay more treasure than they're willing to spend, though, so it's not happening.  Changing branch names and ribbons/bows/pins are cheap compared to what it would cost to overhaul how wounded/disabled vets are compensated, so you get different branch names, and ribbons/bows/pins.

My  :2c:

</broken record>

Also, when it's in the courts, the Government will fight from the (unspoken) "we'll fight as long as a court doesn't say we have to change things" position. 

Finally, when it comes to setting a precedent, we have the words of the Honourable James Hacker, "You mean that if we do the right thing this time, we might have to do the right thing again next time?"

 

[BlueJays1985]

Im fully aware that I dont know much about this, as I have barely, barely, scratched the surface with these forums and links within them.
As a new recruit I try to maintain my faith in 'the system' and recall all the reasons why Canada is the best country in the world. Trying to tell my self that the Govt always has its citizens at heart...while reading that the Crown doesnt owe its veterans anything is incredibly discouraging. I wont allow it to change who I am, or how I feel about the nation that has provided me such a wonderful life.

I will continue to exercise my democratic right afforded to me by the veterans, that the crown owes nothing to... and bombard MPP Lisa McLeod and MP John Baird making sure they know I, and the members of my community, will not accept political representation that does not support the Canadian Veteran.

Good luck

 

[kratz]

or the court argument was a classic "trial balloon" to gauge the reaction of current members.

The Federal government did slide the new VAC in under the radar, so this might have gone unnoticed as well.

 

[The Bread Guy]

or the court argument was a classic "trial balloon" to gauge the reaction of current members.

Most government trial balloons tend to be "shared" with media and attributed to "anonymous sources", not generally shared under oath in court.

 

[Inquisitor]

Here is a "good idea faerie" question: dismantling the Dept of Veterans Affairs as being a redundant and useless organization, more fittingly replaced by a Federal Workman's Compensation Board?  If all claims going to VAC are initially refused "on principal", what is the use of them, other than adding more stress to the lives of injured Service members?

Workman's Compensation  Workplace Safety and Insurance Board TFTFY.  >Please be careful what you wish for. I sincerely hope that no-one reading this has the misfortune to deal with its Ontario Provincial Counterpart.  Has a nasty reputation for aiding the employer and I suppose I should say "Hindering" the injured party.

 

[George Wallace]

Can't really wish for much in today's climate.  Not one of the various organizations is likely to do the job to anyone's satisfaction.  All the plans are 'money pits'.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Here is a site that tells how the first day of court went on July 22nd 2013. This is probably going to piss a lot of people off considering one of the points says "The crown also argued that Canada has no obligations to provide any benefits to Veterans."

See link for more details.

http://canadianveteran011.blogspot.ca/2013/07/veterans-suing-government-over.html

The media finally catches up here:

Lawyers for the federal government are asking a British Columbia judge to dismiss a class-action lawsuit filed by current and former soldiers injured in Canada's combat mission in Afghanistan, saying Ottawa owes them nothing more than what they have already received under its controversial New Veterans Charter.

The lawsuit filed last fall by six veterans claims that the new charter, and the changes it brought to the compensation regime for Canadian Forces members, violates the constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

That claim is "unnecessary, frivolous or vexatious or otherwise an abuse of process," argue lawyers for the federal Attorney General, who were in B.C. Supreme Court last week asking a judge to dismiss the case.

"In support of their claim, the representative plaintiffs assert the existence of a 'social covenant,' a public law duty, and a fiduciary duty on the part of the federal government," Jasvinder S. Basran, the regional director general for the federal Justice Department, said in an application filed with the court.

The lawsuit invokes the "honour of the Crown," a concept that has been argued in aboriginal rights claims.

"The defendant submits that none of the claims asserted by the representative plaintiffs constitutes a reasonable claim, that the claims are frivolous or vexatious, and accordingly that they should be struck out in their entirety." ....

 

[PuckChaser]

While I'm very disheartened by the government's lawyers remarks in this case, I don't think I'm a big fan of the NDP jumping on the bandwagon for our cause. I just did a little research, and the NVC was passed unanimously in the House, and Peter Stoffer was a MP at the time. Did he think it was OK then, and change his mind? Did he not care and just vote party lines? Or is he only picking up the cause now, because it has potential to embarrass the government?

I'm leaning more to number 3....

 

[Teager]

While I'm very disheartened by the government's lawyers remarks in this case, I don't think I'm a big fan of the NDP jumping on the bandwagon for our cause. I just did a little research, and the NVC was passed unanimously in the House, and Peter Stoffer was a MP at the time. Did he think it was OK then, and change his mind? Did he not care and just vote party lines? Or is he only picking up the cause now, because it has potential to embarrass the government?

I'm leaning more to number 3....

The recent CTV article mentions one of the lawyers fighting for the vets. He says he has been in touch with multiple politicians from all parties. When they passed the NVC all politicians believed that they were doing a "good thing" and weren't seeing it as a means to save money. Now it is seen as a means to save money.

The government is saving massive amounts of money with the lump sum amount. If you think about the old system where they were given a pension for life for an injury and how much money they would have to pay out over that time. Now a majority of the WWII vets are passing away and with each one that passes that had an injury they are no longer paying a pension to them which adds to the savings.

The majority of civis and even some military members believe that if you are injured you are given a pension for life. The only pension you get is the one you've worked for and thats if you have enough time in.

I'm sure any member who has been injured would give every penny back to have there working body/mind back. I know I would.

 

[Wookilar]

I'm sure any member who has been injured would give every penny back to have there working body/mind back. I know I would.

:goodpost:

 

[The Bread Guy]

.... Now it is seen as a means to save money ....

Making changes by ANY party in power unlikely.

 

[Teager]

From what I have been reading the court will render a decision come October.

 

[Future Pensioner]

From Friday, 06 Sep 13:

A B.C. Supreme Court justice says current and former members of the Canadian Forces who were injured in Afghanistan can continue their class-action lawsuit against the federal government.

The lawsuit was filed last fall, with plaintiffs arguing the new Veterans Charter and the changes it brings to the compensation regime for members of the Canadian Forces violate the constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

more at this link:    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/afghanistan-veterans-can-continue-lawsuit-against-federal-government-judge-says/article14176839/

 

[Teager]

Excellent news! The fight continues.

 

[krustyrl]

Let's hope the GoC recognizes the shortcomings and learned from the last Class Action Lawsuit by making this a short battle for the Veterans but somehow past history and my trick knee says otherwise.  I hope the lawyers on behalf of the ill and injured bring their best game .!      :yellow:

 

[Teager]

For complete transcripts and the decision from the judge see below link.

http://equitassociety.ca/legal-action

 

[bigcletus]

There's billions more at state here...I think the gov't won't roll over on this one...