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Class Action Suit against NVC & "Govt has no obligation to soldiers"

Tcm621 said:
Fire fighters and police are close but if they think it isn't safe, they don't have to go. If we need to locate the enemy, while Charlie team is taking a bound and hopefully they won't get shot.

Or be ordered to remove their gas mask to test the air to see if it's safe for everyone else.

The stuff soldiers deal with through the VA office (and places like CF housing) simply wouldn't fly with civilians.

recceguy said:
So far we've heard, again, nothing but talk and promises. The proof is in the pudding. Let's see substantial action.

However for his first hundred days, given the openness, identifying issues by actually consulting with Veterans and promising to fix them, he's light years ahead of that neanderthal Mr. Fantino.

I get a really good vibe from him. It feels like he means business and will deliver.

I keep seeing people saying that you can't change things over night.  I bet if he started firing people left and right and people's fat juicy paychecks were at risk we would start seeing some over night improvements.
 
Jarnhamar said:
I bet if he started firing people left and right and people's fat juicy paychecks were at risk we would start seeing some over night improvements.

I bet those same people are covered by PSAC or some similar labour group and are therefore immune from summarily being fired, so that's not really a viable option.
 
The EXs are the ones who should take the heat, and they are not protected by PSAC.
 
MCG said:
The EXs are the ones who should take the heat, and they are not protected by PSAC.

:goodpost:

Now that's proper target identification.  Far too often the workers in the Public Service take a bashing over policy, when the average public servant doesn't even get a say on policy issues.  If I get told to stop spending, I stop spending.  Don't aim heat at me because someone 5 levels above me in the hierarchy tied the purse strings in a knot.
 
Teager said:
He should be in the loop but for whatever reason there is a disconnect. I've seen this before but on the DND side of the house. Myself and other wounded soldiers were asked to explain our issues to a room full of Generals and other higher ups. From there they were able to give direction and make things happen and happen quickly to solve those issues. Minister O'Toole is listening to veterans to understand there view and how the system affects them and try to make change from there even if it's from social media.

I know I read somewhere that Mike Blais even said that the VAC Minister needs to connect more through social media as more modern vets are active there then in the legion. So maybe he's trying that out as a means of connecting with modern veterans.

The minister is very definitely engaging aggressively through social media. He has been in direct contact with CVA, Send Up The Count (me specifically), the various regional Veterans' Well Beings Networks, and with specific individuals he has identified through or been referred to by same. By 'direct contact' I mean he's been personally talking with a bunch of us, and is saying over and over that he wants to hear what we've got to tell him personally or gleaned through or networks. Yes, action will speak much louder than words. He's been in the job only a month so far, and his reaching out has earned him the benefit of the doubt from me. I suspect he's been given a pretty broad mandate of "identify issues and within reason fix them" from the PM- a mission, commander's intent, and his left and right of arcs. I look forward to seeing what results. What I'm seeing so far suggests he's the right guy for a crappy and difficult job.
 
Occam said:
Far too often the workers in the Public Service take a bashing over policy, when the average public servant doesn't even get a say on policy issues.  If I get told to stop spending, I stop spending.  Don't aim heat at me because someone 5 levels above me in the hierarchy tied the purse strings in a knot.

Thank you! As one of those 5 levels below... :)
 
I think Minister O'Toole is more interested in putting the proverbial best foot forward than his predecessor was. His introduction last week or two weeks ago to VAC staff at HO, and his short speech, from talking with colleagues, was well received.

My only wish is he isn't simply putting actions out there to ensure he is reelected in Fall 2015.
 
blackberet17 said:
My only wish is he isn't simply putting actions out there to ensure he is reelected in Fall 2015.

To turn that around, he could be putting in the effort to get reelected (all politicians want reelection) so he can continue with the MVA portfolio and fix whats wrong.

I'm glad he's articulating his vision to the coalface workers in VAC, their buy-in will really show where the roadblocks are in the EX level so changes can be made.
 
PuckChaser said:
I'm glad he's articulating his vision to the coalface workers in VAC, their buy-in will really show where the roadblocks are in the EX level so changes can be made.
:nod:

PuckChaser said:
To turn that around, he could be putting in the effort to get reelected (all politicians want reelection) so he can continue with the MVA portfolio and fix whats wrong that a majority Conservative government couldn't fix in four years.
FTFY - if a party can't get 'er done with a majority it's not afraid to use as required, it either can't be done by anyone, or it will cost more than the government is willing to spend, based on the potential for cutting other things people want more.

blackberet17 said:
Of note, few if any of the EX pers were on the floor...
I hear they usually get their own chat  ;D
 
milnews.ca said:
I hear they usually get their own chat  ;D

What I would give to be a fly on the wall for such a chat, with Minister O'Toole and our new DM in the room...
 
blackberet17 said:
What I would give to be a fly on the wall for such a chat, with Minister O'Toole and our new DM in the room...

Yes.....it would be interesting.

I reckon the chats the coal face receives is much different from what the senior execs receive.

It would be similar in a unit when the new CO speaks to the troops, then his RSM, company commanders aNd CSMs separately.
 
This just on todays news;

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/veteran-tired-of-government-making-him-prove-he-lost-his-legs-1.2227180

At the top of the headline, the eye grabbing headline - "Veteran tired of Government making him prove he lost his legs"

Again, no the Government is NOT making him prove he lost his legs! He says, and I quote "every year there are assessments that are done through Manulife which is the insurance and uh, the insurance agency that we use and uhh then through Veterans Affairs that you actually have to prove uhh your condition and uhh unfortunately for me, I have to prove I still have no legs every year."

Rewind for a moment.... his own words clearly identify that every year there are assessments that are done through Manulife. Manulife, as I mentioned in an earlier post is the insurance company DND has hired to handle Long Term Disability benefits.  BLUE CROSS is the insurance company VAC deals with.  DND & VAC, Manulife and Blue Cross - four completely separate entities.  Where he ends up stumbling immediately after saying assessments are done through Manulife, somehow, he attaches Veterans Affairs to his statement. VAC has no place in that statement. Veterans Affairs has JACK SQUAT to do with Manulife Financial!!!  No, they are NOT asking a soldier to prove his legs are still gone! They are sending out an ANNUAL ASSESSMENT that they send to EACH and EVERY client they handle for LTD benefits to check to see if they are still eligible for continued coverage.  Amputees from civilian industrial accidents, truckers who may have lost limbs in an accident on the highway, soldiers who lost a limb overseas.  His legs are gone, and his annual assessment he completes every year will most likely indicate "no change from last year" and his benefits will continue uninterrupted. Period.

I am a huge advocate for Veterans getting their due, but not at the expense of integrity.  Parlour tricks, smoke and mirrors to muddy the waters and hope to paint VAC as some sort of Department whose sole mission is to deny Veterans deserved benefits is not the way to do it.  As Mr. Monkhouse pointed out earlier, we lose the media, we lose the Canadian peoples support.  Who remembers wearing a uniform in 1995?  The CF couldn't dig a deep enough hole to hide in so large was the target on their back and the Canadian public in general didn't give a damn about the Military, cut more from Defence spending was the popular mantra of the decade.

I have to question the professionalism of CTV News.  They just throw up a story that will generate viewership without screening the story for facts.  I agree with Mr. Franklins assessment of the NVC, always have.  The NVC is junk and it does no service to Veterans compared to the Pension Act.  The Rehab Program is the only really useful thing in the NVC.  They could have (should have) simply incorporated the Rehab Program into the Pension Act, but instead, modern and future Veterans are getting screwed with their cheap buy-off lump sums.  I sincerely hope Mr. O'Toole and the Harper Government get their act together and make the appropriate changes.

A reporter who decides to really do some actual investigative journalism into the full story here could come up with too many facts that will make Mr. Franklins good arguments he does make end up seeming hollow, which would be very unfortunate given he appears to have a soapbox that is garnering attention.

My last observation to that interview, and again, I may get dogpiled for pointing it out - The Directorate of Honours & Recognition (DH&R) gives some very clear cut direction on the wearing of medals.  The effigy of The Queen of Canada is supposed to be visible on mounted medals.  The Sacrifice Medal, South-West Asia Service Medal and Queen's Diamond Jubilee medal are all mounted with the reverse, rather the proper obverse clearly showing.  In my opinion, that in itself shows a disrespect to orders and regulations. Come to think of it.... orders and regulations are what Manulife Financial is following by having ALL their benefit recipients file that paperwork each year.

 
One other thing I'd like to point out that highlights Manulife's position on sending these forms out for continued benefit coverage.... yes, an individual may lose both legs, but, he very well may end up re-entering the workforce in a new occupation that pays him MORE than he was making in the Military, or more than his 75% salary benefit covers.  If that is the case, their Manulife 75% salary benefit would end.  I give you MCpl. (Ret'd) Jody Mitic, Ward 2 Councillor for the City of Ottawa.  Mr. Mitic was almost certainly a recipient of Manulife LTD benefits after he lost both his legs in Afghanistan.  The 2013 salary for a City Councillor was listed at $93,999.00.  I'm sure it's been bumped up some since then, but now that he is earning that salary, he is no longer eligible for that 75% salary benefit from Manulife - his circumstances have changed for the better.  This is why they send out that ANNUAL ASSESSMENT.  To ask if your situation has changed or improved to find out if you are indeed eligible for benefits.  It is what is it.
 
reccecrewman said:
One other thing I'd like to point out that highlights Manulife's position on sending these forms out for continued benefit coverage.... yes, an individual may lose both legs, but, he very well may end up re-entering the workforce in a new occupation that pays him MORE than he was making in the Military, or more than his 75% salary benefit covers.  If that is the case, their Manulife 75% salary benefit would end.  I give you MCpl. (Ret'd) Jody Mitic, Ward 2 Councillor for the City of Ottawa.  Mr. Mitic was almost certainly a recipient of Manulife LTD benefits after he lost both his legs in Afghanistan.  The 2013 salary for a City Councillor was listed at $93,999.00.  I'm sure it's been bumped up some since then, but now that he is earning that salary, he is no longer eligible for that 75% salary benefit from Manulife - his circumstances have changed for the better.  This is why they send out that ANNUAL ASSESSMENT.  To ask if your situation has changed or improved to find out if you are indeed eligible for benefits.  It is what is it.

That's incorrect. Manulife needs to know if you get employment right away not wait until an assessment form shows up. If you get employment you are to notify Manulife and submit your pay stubs to them. You may still be eligible to receive money from Manulife if your income from employment falls below the benefit paid. Manulife will balance it out. If you make more as in your example then you will not receive any more from Manulife. However if you loose your employment it is important again to contact Manulife and inform them of this because you may be eligible to receive the benefit again.
 
Not incorrect at all. Absolutely everything I said in my above statement is 100% correct. You added some extra information than I had, but what I said was correct. Yes, you are required to notify immediately and not wait for the form, but guess what? There have been countless instances of people NOT informing right away. I said if you make more than your benefit allows, you'll be taken off. Stop picking pepper from flyshit. It's a once a year inconvenience which I can attest to because I've been doing it since my own medical release. I have no issue whatsoever with doing some paperwork once a year to have my benefits continue. It's a process, not a news story. "Veteran made to fill out Assessment Forms for extended benefits coverage annually" Guess that's just not a story seller.

How many PEN forms does a soldier fill in during a year? I've had years where I filled out as many as 10.  Once a year, I have to go stand in a line at Service Ontario to renew my license plate sticker.... no changes occurred, why can't they just send me my sticker and save me the arduous task of filling out a form and waiting in line?  How about taxes? Every year, the Government makes me fill out forms to submit my taxes! Does this sound like a legitimate gripe? No. It's part of life and it's an administrative process.  So too is filling out my Manulife forms.
 
If nothing else, the way in which Paul Franklin tried to explain his situation does show how much he misunderstands who is covering what.
It kind of underlines what I was getting at earlier, that many don't get very good information to begin with as they begin the release process.

It sounds like his release happened relatively quickly, and it would just be an assumption of mine, but someone who just got his legs blown off in combat is more than likely going to have some trouble dealing with that trauma, and may not be able to focus entirely on what he should be researching in order to ask the right questions in getting help.

Reccecrewman, I get that the the mileage will vary, considerably, between the amount of advice you get at one VAC district office compared to another, but it should not be a game of "I'll give you an answer if you know the right questions to ask". A few simple statements from the member should be enough to get some kind of advice from the VAC rep, not terse short answers because the clock's running until the next appointment

In the end I suppose Paul Franklin's story does nothing to support the legal action this thread is about, but it is maybe a cautionary tale about how much you really need to dig for answers yourself.

In the FWIW dept, I still don't understand why the plaintiffs are using a constitutional approach to their law suit, instead of centering it on what their case has in its evidence: a comparison of payouts under the NVC to LTD granted in civilian compensation programs. The GoC's legal representation, I think, would then have a difficult time justifying their argument of "no obligation"; you can't on the one hand identify veterans as being no different than anyone else making a claim for a disability, but then limit that payout based on the fact they are a veteran.

There certainly seems to of been enough all along to accelerate a review of the NVC, just not sure if it was necessary to sue the Gov't to do that.
All together, it does look like in the long run the review of the NVC is going to lose traction, and this legal case isn't necessarily helping.
 
reccecrewman said:
Not incorrect at all. Absolutely everything I said in my above statement is 100% correct. You added some extra information than I had, but what I said was correct. Yes, you are required to notify immediately and not wait for the form, but guess what? There have been countless instances of people NOT informing right away. I said if you make more than your benefit allows, you'll be taken off. Stop picking pepper from flyshit. It's a once a year inconvenience which I can attest to because I've been doing it since my own medical release. I have no issue whatsoever with doing some paperwork once a year to have my benefits continue. It's a process, not a news story. "Veteran made to fill out Assessment Forms for extended benefits coverage annually" Guess that's just not a story seller.

How many PEN forms does a soldier fill in during a year? I've had years where I filled out as many as 10. Once a year, I have to go stand in a line at Service Ontario to renew my license plate sticker.... no changes occurred, why can't they just send me my sticker and save me the arduous task of filling out a form and waiting in line? How about taxes? Every year, the Government makes me fill out forms to submit my taxes! Does this sound like a legitimate gripe? No. It's part of life and it's an administrative process.  So too is filling out my Manulife forms.

You can renew online in less than 10 minutes. There's your pepper ;)

You equate filling out your tax forms with someone else having to prove they have no legs every year?
 
reccecrewman said:
Once a year, I have to go stand in a line at Service Ontario to renew my license plate sticker.... no changes occurred, why can't they just send me my sticker and save me the arduous task of filling out a form and waiting in line?  How about taxes? Every year, the Government makes me fill out forms to submit my taxes! Does this sound like a legitimate gripe? No. It's part of life and it's an administrative process.  So too is filling out my Manulife forms.

I totally feel sorry for you having to stand in line to fill out a form.  Come to think of it it's unfair Paul Franklin get's to sit on his ass while you're standing. You should complain and see if they can install benches for you.  Fairs fair.
 
Jarnhamar said:
I totally feel sorry for you having to stand in line to fill out a form.  Come to think of it it's unfair Paul Franklin get's to sit on his *** while you're standing. You should complain and see if they can install benches for you.  Fairs fair.

Are we done with the martyrdom? Seriously!  The point is filling out a questionnaire once a year to extend your benefits IS NOT A NATIONAL NEWS ISSUE! It takes about 30 minutes to complete, ONCE A YEAR.

Not to mention, he, and the news agencies keep on saying VAC or the Government is making him do this year after year - NO! It's the INSURANCE COMPANY! I get a lot of people love to hate on VAC and the Government, but the axe he has to grind with regards to his annual questionnaire does NOT involve the Government or VAC!
 
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