Class B entitled to gym membership?

[ModlrMike]

Apollo and N McKay,

I'm not reserve bashing, I am just giving my opinion of what I think is a good investment and what isn't.

There are plenty of Reservists who have sacrificed more than any of us have, so it's not about Reg > Res, but just that paying for every reservist to have a gym membership seems like something that we could do if we were overflowing with money but not at a time when budgets are being reduced and according to Gen Tremblay we are already overspending on everything.

Where is the accountability for that gym membership money?  What is the value to the CF for that $500/yr per reservist?  Are they actually going every day?  Are their results improving?

Pet, you miss the point. The OP was asking as a Class B. Nobody is suggesting that Class A should have a membership, I think we all realize that would be cost prohibitive.

The reason I ask is that the only fitness evaluations you are mandated to be able to do in the Army is a BFT and if you're feeling adventurous the Army Fitness Challenge.  One is a rucksack with other events not requiring a gym, and the other is a run with other events not requiring a gym.

There's more than the Army that has Class B reservists.

If the Army had fitness tests that required a Cooper Test or something that involved gym-specific equipment then I could understand it I suppose.  To me it just strikes me as "I'm-entitled-to-it" disease.

They are entitled to it. Fitness is a condition of service. If we provide for the RegF, then we provide for all full time pers.



Oh, just to point out; I don't have a dog in this fight. I have a gym in my house.

 

[dapaterson]

Oh, just to point out; I don't have a dog in this fight. I have a gym in my house.

And how much do you charge Class B reservits to use it?  ;D

 

[SeanNewman]

All good points and I concur with many of them (B vs A, for example).

At the end of the day, I am still not convinced that we should be doing things like this for reservists because in this soldiers eyes they are not equal (hear me out, again I started in the Reserves so I know both sides).

When I was in the Reserves, I was obviously not fully committed to the Army.  I liked it and enjoyed my time while in it, but by the very nature of being in the Reserves I was admitting that I was not "all in".  Different people have different reasons, be it family, they love the city they live in, they love their full-time job, even their freedom, etc...but all those things just confirm that a Reservist is not "all in".

And if you're not fully committed to the CF, why does the CF owe you what it provides Reg Force members?

Reg Force members sacrifice by joining.  They have to take a harder hit on family, they (usually) have to live in crappy cities far away from where they grey up, and they have no freedom.

Reserve members who expect equal entitlement are asking for all of the good parts about being in the CF without having to endure any of the crappy parts that come with full commitment.

 

[George Wallace]

Take your fracking blinders off and stop painting everyone with such a broad brush.  You are totally off base and outside of your league.  There are Reservists that are highly trained, highly educated, and deployed more than Reg Force.  Not everyone works in your tiny world.  Not all Reservists are Infantry.  Some Trades are very highly specialized, and as such do not fit your narrow view of the CF.

 

[vonGarvin]

Reserve members who expect equal entitlement are asking for all of the good parts about being in the CF without having to endure any of the crappy parts that come with full commitment.

This is not a "us" vs "them" part, because we all know that when the rubber hits the road, the Reservists are there, shoulder to shoulder and they have their share of good, bad and ugly: just like us in the Regular force.  But I believe that this is a good point: how much do we invest in a part of the CF that gives back 20-30% of the same investment worth as the Regular force?  I'm not saying "shaft them", and if they serve in an area where facilities exist (eg: a reservist in Winnipeg, for example), then by all means, certainly give them full and complete access to base facilities.  So, for a class "B" guy serving full time in his unit in say, Windsor, then do we or do we not provide him or her with a gym membership?  So, I'm not talking about all class "A" reservists getting that investment, but the class "B" guy or girl who serves away from a CF facility.  I'm not certain that the investment and the admin to do so would be worth it. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Windsor has a gym in it's armouries Well not a full gym, but a pretty good equipped workout room anyway.

 

[ArmyRick]

Petamocto,

CHECK the attitude. Reservist have DIED for this country in Afghanistan.

HOW MUCH MORE OF HARDSHIP and scarficice do you think they can put forth.

Uncalled for and not on.

 

[4Feathers]

At the end of the day, I am still not convinced that we should be doing things like this for reservists because in this soldiers eyes they are not equal .When I was in the Reserves, I was obviously not fully committed to the Army.  I liked it and enjoyed my time while in it, but by the very nature of being in the Reserves I was admitting that I was not "all in".  Different people have different reasons, be it family, they love the city they live in, they love their full-time job, even their freedom, etc...but all those things just confirm that a Reservist is not "all in".
And if you're not fully committed to the CF, why does the CF owe you what it provides Reg Force members?
Reg Force members sacrifice by joining.  They have to take a harder hit on family, they (usually) have to live in crappy cities far away from where they grey up, and they have no freedom.Reserve members who expect equal entitlement are asking for all of the good parts about being in the CF without having to endure any of the crappy parts that come with full commitment.

This is already taken into account in their compensation package, they only make 85% of reg force salary. Most of the class B reservists I work with have already done 30 years in the Reg Force and many are the most dedicated soldiers I have had the pleasure to work with. Just because you were not "all in" during your time as a reservist, please don't make the assumption that others are not. Reservists are required to be "fit to fight" as are all other military personnel. Perhaps you should read the CF Policy on Heath and Fitness (CMP website). All my personnel, reserve and reg force alike, are required to follow an aggressive PT program, so they are fit when they deploy, and also contribute to a healthy lifestyle. It is concerning to me that a Combat Arms Officer would hold such an opinion about the importance of physical fitness, reservist or not.

 

[vonGarvin]

This is already taken into account in their compensation package, they only make 85% of reg force salary. Most of the class B reservists I work with have already done 30 years in the Reg Force and many are the most dedicated soldiers I have had the pleasure to work with. Just because you were not "all in" during your time as a reservist, please don't make the assumption that others are not. Reservists are required to be "fit to fight" as are all other military personnel. Perhaps you should read the CF Policy on Heath and Fitness (CMP website). All my personnel, reserve and reg force alike, are required to follow an aggressive PT program, so they are fit when they deploy, and also contribute to a healthy lifestyle. It is concerning to me that a Combat Arms Officer would hold such an opinion about the importance of physical fitness, reservist or not.

This has nothing to do with my post.  I am first of all quite aware of the importance of physical fitness and how it correlates directly with one's ability to soldier (irrespective of trade).  Second of all, I am more than aware of the CF policy on Health and Fitness. 

I must clarify one point, however.  I talk in general terms about the investment into the reserves and the return.  For the amount of effort we (the general "we") put into the reserves as a whole, we get much less for a similar sized investment (time, resources, money, etc) into the regular force.  PLEASE NOTE: THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A RESERVE SOLDIER'S ABILITY TO SERVE HIS OR HER COUNTRY!  So, I am not belittling the reserve soldier.  The reserve system?  That is rotten to the core, is inefficient, and does a disservice to its members: the citizen-soldiers who often give up their two-week summer holiday to attend CF training.  Anyway, that's not relevant to my argument.  My argument is this:

It is not logistically sustainable (nor does it make sense) to provide every Class "B" soldier with a gym membership if there are no CF facilities nearby.  That is my point.  I make this argument without emotion.  And I also use a bit of a Kantian approach to this (eg: can it be universalised?)  Regular Force members at (most) CF bases have the ability to live in PMQs or in shacks.  Extending the argument to providing Class "B" soldiers with equal entitlements as regular force soldiers means that we would have to provide PMQs, shacks, etc.  As well, for the gym memberships, does this include personal trainers to take the place of PSP staff?  Where does it end?  That's my argument.

 

[Celticgirl]

All good points and I concur with many of them (B vs A, for example).

At the end of the day, I am still not convinced that we should be doing things like this for reservists because in this soldiers eyes they are not equal (hear me out, again I started in the Reserves so I know both sides).

When I was in the Reserves, I was obviously not fully committed to the Army.  I liked it and enjoyed my time while in it, but by the very nature of being in the Reserves I was admitting that I was not "all in".  Different people have different reasons, be it family, they love the city they live in, they love their full-time job, even their freedom, etc...but all those things just confirm that a Reservist is not "all in".

And if you're not fully committed to the CF, why does the CF owe you what it provides Reg Force members?

Reg Force members sacrifice by joining.  They have to take a harder hit on family, they (usually) have to live in crappy cities far away from where they grey up, and they have no freedom.

Reserve members who expect equal entitlement are asking for all of the good parts about being in the CF without having to endure any of the crappy parts that come with full commitment.

Petamocto, as a member of the Primary Air Reserve, I find your comments on this thread to be condescending and disrespectful.

First and foremost, most reservists spend time in the Reg F at some point during their careers. Many are annuitants, a myriad of others start out as reservists and do a CT when the time is right for them to do so. I would also like to point out that there are a lot of 'full-time' reservists (class B) who are doing the exact same job as their Reg F counterparts and for less money. (Those of us in the Air Reserve do all the same training as well, so I am away on courses as much as the Reg F members in my trade.) The trade-off for us reservists is that we do not have to take postings or deployments, very true, but you know what? Many of our military's reservists choose to deploy anyway, some multiple times, because they want to serve their country. I just completed paperwork last week for two of our reservists at my unit who are deploying to Afghanistan in the near future. Another reservist who works in the same office as myself is in KAF as I type this. It is her second deployment to the Ghan as a reservist and she has just made the decision to do a CT after a decade of steady work in the CF (again, as a reservist). Considering the fact that these individuals I mentioned volunteered for these deployments, as opposed to being "voluntold", I would say that they are very much "fully committed", wouldn't you?

Don't assume that just because someone chose reserve over Reg F that this is because they do not want to serve their country in the same capacity as other CF members. You don't know what their individual circumstances are nor do you know what their past or future 'commitments' are/were in the CF. No doubt there are some s***pump reservists out there. There are some s***pump Reg F members out there, too. I personally know of some Reg F members who have managed to avoid postings and deployments for most of their careers...and still get the "100%" pay, not the "85%" that we reservists get.

Fortunately, I am appreciated for the work I do at my unit, and I get to work out (for free) 3-5 times a week. As a result, I expect I will continue to be exempt on my future Expres tests, and remain a fit soldier...regardless of whether I stay reserve or CT to Reg. I consider myself to be very much "all in" either way.

 

[PuckChaser]

Are Regular Force members entitled to a gym membership when posted to a RSS/RFTA position at a PRes unit that does not have a gym?

If the answer is no, why should reservists get it?

 

[4Feathers]

This has nothing to do with my post.  I am first of all quite aware of the importance of physical fitness and how it correlates directly with one's ability to soldier (irrespective of trade).  Second of all, I am more than aware of the CF policy on Health and Fitness. 


[/quote

Of course it has nothing to do with your post, I quoted Petamocto, not you. 

 

[George Wallace]

Are Regular Force members entitled to a gym membership when posted to a RSS/RFTA position at a PRes unit that does not have a gym?

If the answer is no, why should reservists get it?

???

They wouldn't be.



Let's get something straight; not all Class "B" Reservists are getting 'gym passes' or similar deals. 

 

[PuckChaser]

So if we're talking about fairness, and how all members of the CF (regardless of element and component) need to maintain a certain standard of physical fitness; why would a PRes member be entitled to a gym membership while on Cl B working alongside a RegF member who has to maintain the same fitness level who does not get that gym membership?

 

[Journeyman]

Are Regular Force members entitled to a gym membership when posted to a RSS/RFTA position at a PRes unit that does not have a gym?

If the answer is no, why should reservists get it?

I had a pass to a civie gym, paid for by DND, when I was the RSS Officer with a Reserve unit and not co-located with a CF Base. I also ensured that all the Cl B personnel had gym passes.

This was several years ago, and I have no idea how the CClk and/or Fin O sorted it out.

 

[dapaterson]

I must clarify one point, however.  I talk in general terms about the investment into the reserves and the return.  For the amount of effort we (the general "we") put into the reserves as a whole, we get much less for a similar sized investment (time, resources, money, etc) into the regular force.  PLEASE NOTE: THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A RESERVE SOLDIER'S ABILITY TO SERVE HIS OR HER COUNTRY!  So, I am not belittling the reserve soldier.  The reserve system?  That is rotten to the core, is inefficient, and does a disservice to its members: the citizen-soldiers who often give up their two-week summer holiday to attend CF training.  Anyway, that's not relevant to my argument. 

Actually, from the Army's perspective, we're getting about 20% of deployable forces from the Reserves, into which we put less than 15% of what we put into the Reg F, so it's actually more cost-efficient.  (Note that when we report to governent on "Reserve" costs, we include the cost of all Reg F backfill by reservists - because our accounting systems are so poor)

Back on topic: a Clas s B reservist in a location without adequate fitness facilities should be given the same consideration asa Reg F member posted to the same place.  Sounds like a pretty simple rule of thumb, no?

 

[George Wallace]

So if we're talking about fairness, and how all members of the CF (regardless of element and component) need to maintain a certain standard of physical fitness; why would a PRes member be entitled to a gym membership while on Cl B working alongside a RegF member who has to maintain the same fitness level who does not get that gym membership?

WTF are you talking about.  I already told you that they wouldn't.......If the Reg Force staff couldn't get it; neither would the Reserve staff. 

ONCE AGAIN:

Not all Reservists are getting 'gym passes' or anything similar. 

To another question:  There are Reservists, on Class "B" over 180 days living in PMQs at some locations. 

There are a lot of statements in this discussion that are totally false, so if you don't know what you are talking about -- don't.

 

[MARS]

At the end of the day, I am still not convinced that we should be doing things like this for reservists because in this soldiers eyes they are not equal (hear me out, again I started in the Reserves so I know both sides).

And if you're not fully committed to the CF, why does the CF owe you what it provides Reg Force members?

Reserve members who expect equal entitlement are asking for all of the good parts about being in the CF without having to endure any of the crappy parts that come with full commitment.

The CF doesn't owe me squat.  But in the naval reserve, we have this thing called the EXPRES test, (bear with me while I inundate you with naval reserve policies and procedures) which I must pass every 365 days unless I get something called an "exemption".  In fact, prior to my last deployment, I had to do this even weirder thing the militia call a BFT.

If I fail to pass my EXPRES test, I receive this warning called an IC.  If I fail again, I receive something the navy calls a Recorded Warning and fail a third time, they put me on C&P.  I know, I know, I should stay away from reserve acronyms - navy reserve acronyms no less (geez, how little commitment must I be making, being a reservist AND a naval one at that?), but bear with me.

Fail it again and I am released from the Navy and indeed released from some entity called the CF.  Not sure what the CF is, maybe if I committed fully I would know.

I am not sure how things work in the Regular Force infantry - maybe this is not an issue for RegF infanteers, maybe you could enlighten me.  Maybe the naval reserve could then adopt your methods of remedial measures.

I am not advocating that reservists receive more benefits than the regular force, but since the OP asked about Cl B over 180 days, simply the same benefits as their RegF counterparts when subjected to the same policies.  What DAP said.

Excuse me for a moment while I go find a kitten for God to kill.

 

[Cansky]

Got a reference we can quote in doing the same for other units in similar circumstances?

I have been reading this thread now for the past couple of days.  Haggis asked a great question but in the jump on Petamoco no one has acknowledge this question.  So I will ask it. 

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE GIVE A REFERENCE FOR THIS ENTITLEMENT.

I spent most of this morning trying to find any info on this via the DWAN and have had no luck.  I have Reg Forces students who spend a year away from home on an extremely demanding course (both time demanding and mentally demanding) who would greatly benefit from this.  So if someone has the reference or knows where to find it it would be greatly appreciated.


Just a side note I believe anyone reg or res who doesn't have a military facility near by should benefit from this.  After all we all have to meet the physical standards laid out to us.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The CF doesn't owe me squat.  But in the naval reserve, we have this thing called the EXPRES test, (bear with me while I inundate you with naval reserve policies and procedures) which I must pass every 365 days unless I get something called an "exemption".  In fact, prior to my last deployment, I had to do this even weirder thing the militia call a BFT.

If I fail to pass my EXPRES test, I receive this warning called an IC.  If I fail again, I receive something the navy calls a Recorded Warning and fail a third time, they put me on C&P.  I know, I know, I should stay away from reserve acronyms - navy reserve acronyms no less (geez, how little commitment must I be making, being a reservist AND a naval one at that?), but bear with me.

Fail it again and I am released from the Navy and indeed released from some entity called the CF.  Not sure what the CF is, maybe if I committed fully I would know.

I am not sure how things work in the Regular Force infantry - maybe this is not an issue for RegF infanteers, maybe you could enlighten me.  Maybe the naval reserve could then adopt your methods of remedial measures.

I am not advocating that reservists receive more benefits than the regular force, but since the OP asked about Cl B over 180 days, simply the same benefits as their RegF counterparts when subjected to the same policies.  What DAP said.

Excuse me for a moment while I go find a kitten for God to kill.

MARS,

300+ Milpoints to you for bringing a beam of sunshine into the darkness ;D