CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

[DBNSG]

I don't work for Air Services so can't speak specifically to that, but where did you hear this?

We have aircraft older than 7 years in our inventory in E Division, I can tell you that with absolute certainty.

I can also tell you we also have a policy of 160,000kms or 10 years whichever comes first a vehicle is retired and we never follow that.

So...

Then things have changed. I used to know an RCMP contracted pilot on the PC-12's that stated at her time flying none of the aircraft were more than 7 years old.

 

[DBNSG]

I don’t think we have to get to 2030, anymore. IIRC the P8 delivery schedule starts next year and is unusually aggressive (for Canada).

So a normal procurement then.

 

[Alberta Bound]

The RCMP has no “max” seven year rule on their aircraft.

The Pilatus were delivered over about a 5 year period starting around 2001. So that fleet was all under 7 years old at one point, around 10 years ago. Nice passenger plane to fly in but not good for the tasks the RCMP needs a plane for. Which the twin otter was awesome at.

The oldest airframe still operational is a Twin Otter that was built in 1977.

While the NPF can suggest the RCMP buy something. Operational decisions are strictly Managements to make. Including aircraft acquisitions.

Which are either federally funded or joint federal / provincial funded and so those partners impact what is purchased and when.

 

[Maxman1]

So sounds like the pilot was mistaken, or referring to something specific and not the entire fleet.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I don’t think we have to get to 2030, anymore. IIRC the P8 delivery schedule starts next year and is unusually aggressive (for Canada).

Does this play into our aircraft?

Major P-8A Sensor Upgrade Rolls Out At Boeing | Aviation Week Network

The mission system upgrades installed at Cecil Field, Florida, are known bureaucratically as the Increment 3, Block 2 version of the P-8.

aviationweek.com

 

[childs56]

High hours means stress fractures.

I am sure who ever will bid and purchase the Aircraft have a great overhaul system to address those issues.

High hours doesnt mean continued reliability. It just means they've been exceptionally reliable until they aren't...

Again, those who would be interested in these used aircraft would also have a maintenance process that would address those issues and concerns.

The only stop will be if Canada refuses to sell the aircraft to a Civilian company and or restricts their after service use.

 

[ytz]

If I were CDS for the day I'd ideally see the P-8 buy increased to 21 to match the size of the CP-140 fleet and I'd convert our 16 x CC-295's to the MPA/ASW version. For the SAR role I'd replace the Kingfishers with 16 more CC-130J's (which could be re-roled for additional transport capability in case of a conflict).

Ideally, we should have ~22 P-8s. This would allow for 4x squadrons of 5 frames. Three line squadrons. One squadron for OTU and FD. And then 1-2 for the maintenance pipeline. Hopefully, an MPA squadron in Newfoundland finally. Add 5x E-7s and 3x 737NGs for trainers and pilot conversion.

The CC130J for SAR is a good idea. Was one of the original proposals put forward by the Project Management Office. But why would you convert the 295? It's useless to us in roles outside FWSAR. And if we're buying more P-8, we don't need shorter range and lower flying 295s for MPA. The entire point of the P-8 is to get away from that kind of patrol doctrine.

 

[ytz]

France and Airbus to study A321 MPA.

"The new contract provides for the launch of a 24-month risk assessment and reduction study which will ease the transition between the concept and production phases. Airbus hopes to kick off the production phase from the end of 2026."

Airbus Commences A321 Maritime Patrol ‘Flying Frigate’ Study for French Navy

This is one area where Canada could have done well. The A220 would be the perfect airframe for a Maritime Patrol Aircraft. Especially with a Rear Centre Tank.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Ideally, we should have ~22 P-8s. This would allow for 4x squadrons of 5 frames. Three line squadrons. One squadron for OTU and FD. And then 1-2 for the maintenance pipeline. Hopefully, an MPA squadron in Newfoundland finally. Add 5x E-7s and 3x 737NGs for trainers and pilot conversion.

The CC130J for SAR is a good idea. Was one of the original proposals put forward by the Project Management Office. But why would you convert the 295? It's useless to us in roles outside FWSAR. And if we're buying more P-8, we don't need shorter range and lower flying 295s for MPA. The entire point of the P-8 is to get away from that kind of patrol doctrine.

I will agree with your overall airframe numbers, but disagree with having 4 small Sqns. I think 405/407 each with 8 airframes is getting pretty sweet, with the rest for the OTU/maintenance swing. I also disagree with basing in NL. With the range and speed of the P8- what’s the point? You made your point about the speed involved in P8 patrol doctrine.

I think your E7 numbers might be low. I think more in neighbourhood of 7 is right.

Interesting idea of buying NGs for pilot training- but is that actually required in the 21st century? We should almost be able to send co-pilots directly to a line Sqn with with very little, if any, training outside of a full motion sim.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

This is one area where Canada could have done well. The A220 would be the perfect airframe for a Maritime Patrol Aircraft. Especially with a Rear Centre Tank.

Well, there is still that pesky sensor/mission system design and integration piece. And cutting a bomb bay in pressure hull. And weapon release/separation trials. And airworthiness sign off.

10 years ago, that was all a bad bet against a hot P8 line and friendly Americans.

Now? We might be forced to spend that money anyway, is the White House gets frisky.