CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

[dimsum]

Truth! I was quick to point out the number of P-3s The Saints had.

Norway has what, 5 million people? I don’t think it’s really fair to compare us and them.

Same with NZ.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Norway has what, 5 million people? I don’t think it’s really fair to compare us and them.

Same with NZ.

It was more to point out there are smaller fleets and some of them are pretty operationally active and effective.

My experience talking with the low/middle rank USN VP folks is they see anything less than a Sqn deployment as “meh”. Talking with my Dad, that isn’t a new thing and existed pre-Aurora days. He also has similar stories of doing hot hand-overs where they were cold before the Cdn crews landed.

 

[dimsum]

More importantly - will we follow the Norgies and name our planes?

Vingtor (Battle-Thor), etc are pretty badass.

I just want names like “Cobra Chicken”, “Mad Marmot”, and “Ogopogo” to really stir fear into our enemies

 

[Eye In The Sky]

More importantly - will we follow the Norgies and name our planes?

Vingtor (Battle-Thor), etc are pretty badass.

I think our names will be selected from a different source more akin to modern Canadian society…”battle” seems like a very aggressive word.

Maybe…

 

[dapaterson]

RCEME have nothing to do with CMMA.

 

[GR66]

When MAG was “real”, it had 31-33 MPAs (‘107s)…I’d go as far to say we were envied by some Allies back then.

While I can't see us getting 32 x P-8s (when the current discussions are 8-12) what if we were able to get 16 which would be at least a minor upgrade from out current 14 x Auroras and then supplement them with another 16 x C-295's in the MPA configuration.

That would give us a total of 32 x armed MPAs with a High/Low capability mix without adding an additional airframe type for the RCAF to maintain.

EITS's numbers would then look something like this:

I’ll give you my #s.

Line x 2 Sqns, 5 each, total 10 3 x P-8 and 3 x C-295 each = 6 x P-8 and 6 x C-295 Total

Trg Sqn, 2 x P-8 and 2 x C-295

FD Sqn, 2 x P-8 and 2 x C-295

14 10 x P-8 and 10 x C-295 (20 total) that are serviceable or at 1st line (temp U/S)

6 x P-8 and 6 x C-295 in the maint/mod cycles 2nd line +.

20 32 total

The “they are more capable so we need less”
argument is just not true. Anyone who claims it doesn’t understand the fleet IMO.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

In this case, I would advocate to have the 295 the platform Pilots, ACSOs and AES Ops qualify on when doing “whatever trg will be delivered from FAcT”.

Line Sqn 295-to-P8 trg could be a conversation course.

This wouldn’t be “new”. My dad did OTU on Neptunes in ‘67-‘68, went to 415 and did conversion to Argus while on Sqn.

We already have Sqns that have more than 1 aircraft type; Corms and Hercs on the ramp at 413 every day. 407 CP-8 Flt, 407 CC-295 Flt, etc.

 

[dimsum]

In this case, I would advocate to have the 295 the platform Pilots, ACSOs and AES Ops qualify on when doing “whatever trg will be delivered from FAcT”.

Line Sqn 295-to-P8 trg could be a conversation course.

This wouldn’t be “new”. My dad did OTU on Neptunes in ‘67-‘68, went to 415 and did conversion to Argus while on Sqn.

so, a Gonzo with a camera.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

so, a Gonzo with a camera.

A really good camera, and other nice things like AIS, laser designator/illuminator…

* we’d need to look at ESM for the 295

 

[Spencer100]

And here it is! "The Plan" (TM)

And everyone that said the Boeing/bombardier thing is water under bridge. I think I had a discussion with some people that the government and certain families remember it very well.

Bombardier CEO voices concerns over awarding Canada's defense contract to Boeing

I doubt the CEO and an important family didn't let some people (cough cough Trudeau) know about this.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The requirements for the CMMA have been public for some time. What aircraft do they have that meets them all? Not one that “could
exist”, one that does exist.

This doesn’t make the short list for me.

 

[Spencer100]

The requirements for the CMMA have been public for some time. What aircraft do they have that meets them all?

So Bombardier issues a protest. Government then stops any movement on the file.

Buy Canadian will sound great in the upcoming election. Even better in Quebec.

After election wink wink...to the Bomber

Panel will be convened to go over a replacement and requirements. (cough C-27J) New specs and requirements.

Super conveniently P-8 out of production.

As a side bonus pilots will get a lot of type flying for their post RCAF job.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I expect the expectations of NORAD will fit into this behind the scenes with weight.

Bombardier does not have a MPA to propose. Simple.

 

[Spencer100]

I expect the expectations of NORAD will fit into this behind the scenes with weight.

Bombardier does not have a MPA to propose. Simple.

They can point the BCON E-11A being build now. So there is that. Plus other conversions for the RAF etc.

Global 6500

The Global 6500 aircraft has class-leading power for mission equipment, over 18 hours of endurance, proven reliability with class-leading maintenance intervals and ample cabin space for workstations and mission equipment.

defense.bombardier.com

I'll take bets right now that if the Trudeau wins upcoming election no P-8.

 

[Good2Golf]

I'll take bets right now that if the Trudeau wins upcoming election no P-8.

What are you betting? I say we get P-8s even if Trudeau wins a majority.

 

[Spencer100]

What are you betting? I say we get P-8s even if Trudeau wins a majority.

Case of beer! And if you are close to Windsor we drink it together (optional)

 

[lenaitch]

So Bombardier issues a protest. Government then stops any movement on the file.

Buy Canadian will sound great in the upcoming election. Even better in Quebec.

After election wink wink...to the Bomber

Panel will be convened to go over a replacement and requirements. (cough C-27J) New specs and requirements.

Super conveniently P-8 out of production.

As a side bonus pilots will get a lot of type flying for their post RCAF job.

How many sonobouys and torpedoes can it deploy?

 

[GR66]

How many sonobouys and torpedoes can it deploy?

Presumably it would be a variant the SAAB Swordfish that Bombardier would be offering. From the SAAB Website:

Saab’s Swordfish Maritime Patrol Aircraft is a strategic, multi-role ISR system that redefines air power in the maritime domain. No other MPA on the market delivers such a high level of mission performance in such an adaptable and sustainable package. With a payload of up to six torpedoes, anti-ship missiles, over 200 sonobuoys, the world’s most modern sensor suite and a mission endurance close to 13 hours, Swordfish is in a class of its own.

This other website gives some additional details on the weapon & sonobouy capacity of the Swordfish:

Recent product development milestones at Saab and Bombardier have validated a significant increase in the available payload carried on Swordfish’s four, NATO-compatible hard points. Swordfish can now be armed with up to six lightweight-torpedoes for the ASW role. Swordfish can also carry the Saab RBS 15EF anti-ship missile or a mix of missiles and torpedoes to assure total sea control in every aspect. The Swordfish can equally carry a load of four search-and-rescue pods underlining its true multi-mission capability across the maritime domain.

Another capability that sets Swordfish apart from competitors is its ASW suite with a world-leading acoustics processor, magnetic anomaly detector (MAD), gravity-launching systems and an operational load of around 200 A, F and G size sonobuoys. This complete and highly-capable ASW suite enables Swordfish to locate, track and classify the most advanced, high-threat sub-surface targets for several hours, with a higher probability of detection.

By comparison the P-8 has 11 hardpoints (5 internal and 6 external hardpoints...although some sites say four external hard points) and can carry 129 "Size A" sonobouys.

The issue that others have pointed out when the Swordfish has been proposed previously is that the torpedoes are on exterior hardpoints rather than in an internal bomb bay like on the P-8 and the icing at high altitudes is apparently quite problematic. Not something I have any knowledge of or why missiles can work externally while torpedoes can't, but I do recall it being noted as an issue by people in the field in the past.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

They can point the BCON E-11A being build now. So there is that. Plus other conversions for the RAF etc.

They could point to a pickup truck…neither meet the requirements for CMMA. (Assuming you meant the BACN)

 

[GR66]

They could point to a pickup truck…neither meet the requirements for CMMA. (Assuming you meant the BACN)

I guess technically the Swordfish might(?) meet the CMMA requirements, but did Bombardier submit a response to the RFI? If not, then what they hell are they complaining about?