CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

[dimsum]

Although....advances in quantum sensors/gravimetry have the potential to give one or two orders of magnitude improvement to performance that would turn hundreds of meters into kilometres...which might make it more than a "confirmation over top" tool.

AFAIK only the Indian version of the P-8 has MAD. Given that the other nations mostly used the P-3 and decided not to require MAD on the P-8, I wonder what they know that we don't.

That would be a solid filter for me for the ANAVs whom I would chose to ignore. Harpoon/SLAM I'd agree with totally...AMRAAM/Sidewinder/etc. yup....roll eyes.

Yup.

 

[Good2Golf]

AFAIK only the Indian version of the P-8 has MAD. Given that the other nations mostly used the P-3 and decided not to require MAD on the P-8, I wonder what they know that we don't.

Maybe tradition/inertia, but Quantum 2.0 wasn't what it is now and/or will likely be...quantum sensors...magnetometry, gravimetry, etc. Much more to be seen in the years to come...worthy of considering how significantly advanced technology may influence/support operations in the future...not to close one's mind to the possibilities.

 

[Maxman1]

Frankly I don’t think Canada is going to get enough of anything at this point.

On page 18, I suggested 20 was the Minimum number that Canada could get to be looked at as credible with patrolling its own territory, and realistically 34 where needed to give the 16 AC needed to give reliable 24/7 Canadian coverage and 2 for external operations.

Some go to training.
Some will need maintenance, some will need refurbishment, and some will sadly be lost in service.

14 really isn’t a good number at all.

How many AWACS and AGS should Canada have?

 

[dimsum]

How many AWACS and AGS should Canada have?

I'm not really sure how that's relevant to the CMMA thread...?

 

[Maxman1]

The Boeing 737 AEW&C, or E-7 Wedgetail is based on the 737 like the P-8 Poseidon (albeit the -700 rather than the -800), and a 737-based replacement for the 707 E-8 JSTARS has been offered a few times in the past few years.

My thinking is ordering several E-7s with the P-8s is "while we're at it", as that would lower the per unit cost of both systems and increase our capabilities using a common platform (ideally if we could get both built on the 737-800).

 

[dimsum]

The Boeing 737 AEW&C, or E-7 Wedgetail is based on the 737 like the P-8 Poseidon (albeit the -700 rather than the -800), and a 737-based replacement for the 707 E-8 JSTARS has been offered a few times in the past few years.

My thinking is ordering several E-7s with the P-8s is "while we're at it", as that would lower the per unit cost of both systems and increase our capabilities using a common platform (ideally if we could get both built on the 737-800).

It is a completely different capability, and one that the RCAF doesn't currently possess except for the folks posted OUTCAN to the US on their AWACS aircraft. Having an AWACS capability means that we would need the extra pilots, but more importantly the Air Battle Managers (AEC specialty) and AC Ops to fly in them.

Also, if the RCAF decides to go with an AEW&C capability, it would be a different project and not part of CMMA. The CMMA project does not include AEW&C.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Although....advances in quantum sensors/gravimetry have the potential to give one or two orders of magnitude improvement to performance that would turn hundreds of meters into kilometres...which might make it more than a "confirmation over top" tool.

If things get to that stage, I’ll certainly enjoy watching one/some of our allies implement it operationally.

In the meantime, I’ll be happy when Canada finalizes the replacement 2-piece flightsuit in the next 5-10 years…

 

[Eye In The Sky]

AFAIK only the Indian version of the P-8 has MAD. Given that the other nations mostly used the P-3 and decided not to require MAD on the P-8, I wonder what they know that we don't.


Yup.

Just a WAG, but maybe they are all going with HAAWC?

For the weight of a modern MAD system, I think everyone should install it. I’ve seen the acoustic system go offline during ONSTAs before and MAD became the show.

Navy Declares Initial Operational Capability for Boeing’s HAAWC

ST. CHARLES, Mo., Nov. 22, 2022 — Boeing [NYSE: BA]’s High Altitude Anti-Submarine Warfare Weapon Capability, or HAAWC, has satisfied all requirements for initial operational capability status...

boeing.mediaroom.com

 

[Kirkhill]

It is a completely different capability, and one that the RCAF doesn't currently possess except for the folks posted OUTCAN to the US on their AWACS aircraft. Having an AWACS capability means that we would need the extra pilots, but more importantly the Air Battle Managers (AEC specialty) and AC Ops to fly in them.

Also, if the RCAF decides to go with an AEW&C capability, it would be a different project and not part of CMMA. The CMMA project does not include AEW&C.

Does the capability offer Canada / NORAD / NATO / UN any benefits? Is it worthwhile considering?

 

[Kirkhill]

Or putting it another way

What if CSE, Radarsat, RPAS, CMMA, AEW&C and NORAD Radars were to be considered as a complementary set of capabilities?

 

[KevinB]

Does the capability offer Canada / NORAD / NATO / UN any benefits? Is it worthwhile considering?

Or putting it another way

What if CSE, Radarsat, RPAS, CMMA, AEW&C and NORAD Radars were to be considered as a complementary set of capabilities?

Currently done by the USAF for NORAD and as mentioned some RCAF pers are on those planes.

In my napkin Army I proposed a E-7 fleet for Canada as I think it’s a good national capability to have.

But it’s lower on the totem pole for me that’s a lot of other things that Canada really needs.

 

[Maxman1]

It is a completely different capability, and one that the RCAF doesn't currently possess

Well it's one we should possess.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I think discussing adding fleets and new capabilities to the RCAF is wasted energy at this point and for the next decade or so.

The RCAF is trying to bring FAcT online, along with F-35s, struggling with FWSAR, and invested in RPAS, MAISR and CMMA right now. Corm upgrades. Not sure what the current state is in Tac AVN but there is likely stuff happening there too.

We have plenty of airborne warning stuff with NORAD; I’d divert money to systems that are sub-surface. Submarines, IUSS type systems…before even considering AEW&C or EW platforms. Maritime approaches are part of NORAD.

We don’t have the funding, crews or maintainers for new fleets. Or current fleets, even.

 

[Quirky]

The RCAF is trying to bring FAcT online, along with F-35s, struggling with FWSAR, and invested in RPAS, MAISR and CMMA right now. Corm upgrades. Not sure what the current state is in Tac AVN but there is likely stuff happening there too.

You're also forgetting the RCAF's baby, the Snowbirds will need a new replacement decision by decades end.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

You're also forgetting the RCAF's baby, the Snowbirds will need a new replacement decision by decades end.

I guess Canada will need to decide if they are replaced. We lean on our Allies enough now, maybe we could just convene their aerial display teams coming to Canada.

Or…do a virtual air display in sims. That would be more carbon-neutral.

 

[dapaterson]

A documentary about trying to sell the RCAF the '8.

 

[Spencer100]

New torps for the RNZAF P8s

New Zealand To Field Mark 54 Torpedoes Aboard P-8A Poseidon - Naval News

New Zealand's second P-8A Poseidon arrived home on March 20th. The New Zealand Ministry of Defence confirmed MK 54 Torpedoes are included in the P-8A Poseidon purchase.

www.navalnews.com

 

[GR66]

Could someone please post me a copy of the big P-8 purchase announcement that came out during Biden's visit?



...oh wait

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Could someone please post me a copy of the big P-8 purchase announcement that came out during Biden's visit?



...oh wait

If I were a betting person, I’d put my money on “sometime after summer vacation but before Remembrance Day”.

 

[dapaterson]

Federal budget on Tuesday...