coming out of university and joining enlisting as an NCM?

[Future Prodigy]

From the few threads I have read on here it seems that this is suggested by some, so they get their boots wet, etc... but my question is not pertaining to whether someone should join as a NCM before an officer... rather it is, do people whom have graduated from university normally join as NCMs?


The reason i ask is because i too will be graduating in a couple weeks with a honors BA and have been thinking of enlisting as an ncm over an officer, but this at times seems silly. From the threads ive read on here... the majority of ncms enlist as early as 18 years old. I'm 24 and have spent years in school, i feel like id be an old overeducated - in the sense that my university studies has no pragmatic value for the job at hand - NCM.

 

[retiredgrunt45]

The best thing for you to do, would be to speak with a recruiting officer first. They'll be able to point you in the right direction.

 

[Shamrock]

The reason i ask is because i too will be graduating in a couple weeks with a honors BA and have been thinking of enlisting as an ncm over an officer, but this at times seems silly. From the threads ive read on here... the majority of ncms enlist as early as 18 years old. I'm 24 and have spent years in school, i feel like id be an old overeducated - in the sense that my university studies has no pragmatic value for the job at hand - NCM.

Nothing silly about it.  I've served alongside quite a few NCM's with college diplomas and university degrees (and in one case, a private with a graduate degree).  I would say not only is 24 not that old to start off, but that 18 is hardly the vast majority of enlisting ages.

 

[deej96]

I agree with retiredguy45...

...but for a quick add on:
I know quite a few guys who have done university and then gone into NCM.  It isn't uncommon or silly.  You also wouldn't be considered over educated, any education helps.  After all...knowledge is power!

 

[Lumber]

...in the sense that my university studies has no pragmatic value for the job at hand - NCM.

You can't think of being an Officer as requiring a higher level of education or intelligence. True, there are different Aptitude requirements that you must meet for every trade, and certainly that of an Infanteer differs from that of an Infantry Officer, the choice of whether to go NCM or Officer should be about what it is you want to do. I decided I wanted to be an Officer not because I thought as an Officer I was the best, the brightest, that NCMs were "below me". I am certain I will at some point run into an NCM who is both smarter then me and more competent than me. I chose to be an Officer because I want to lead, because anytime I have ever been given the chance to be in charge of something I found took the responsibility very comfortably; I could think fast and make quick and clear decisions (regardless of whether or not they were the best decisions  :) and it just felt very natural to me. Now, these are all traits that I'm sure would benefit an NCM as well. NCOs are leaders after all as well.

Anyways, my point is don't let your degree affect what it is YOU want to do in the CF.

Cheers.

 

[Journeyman]

I am certain I will at some point run into an NCM who is both smarter then me and more competent than me.

You don't think you already have? Hmmmm.....

I too know an increasing number of NCMs with degrees. Individual ability and drive is much more important than a piece of paper or a school ring. Don't worry about it.

You can't think of being an Officer as requiring a higher level of education or intelligence.

Oh, and please don't mistake education with intelligence. That they're not synonymous is demonstrated all too regularly by some posters.

 

[Lumber]

You don't think you already have? Hmmmm.....

I'm certain that I already have.

 

[Maritime_Matt]

I am 29 and in 3 months will be finished my second degree. I will be starting my third degree this fall. I am attempting to join the reserves in my town as an NCM.

 

[geo]

I have my university degree and do not regret having done my service as an NCM
I have had many sappers who've also had their College &/or university degree.

It's a choice. 

NCOs are no smarter/dumber than the officers who lead them.

 

[BDTyre]

I applied while in university, but the way things worked out, I ended up doing all my training after I graduated.  I was 23 when I got in, and that was 3 years ago.  I decided to join as NCM for several reasons and I don't at all regret it.  Okay, as an officer I would have got a cooler cap badge, but that was hardly first and foremost in my mind.

And judging by skills demonstrated in several RTS games, I lack tactical judgement and should not be trusted with the lives of 40 or more people.  ;D

 

[geo]

That,s OK CT, most all junior officers shuold be seen but not heard... unless they run it past their Troop WO beforehand

Behind all good officers are some very good NCOs  8)

 

[lone bugler]

I'd say that being and officer and NCM all depends on trade. weather the trade you like is an officer or NCM trade. Being and officer isn't all about paperwork and leadership. neither is being an NCM all about being in the field and getting hands on work. once you become a Senior NCO through the NCM route, you will need leadership qualities and be "flying a desk" sometimes as the airforce says. And many Company level officers go on patrols, do alot of field work or at least supervise in the field. With a bachelors degree means you'll have more options. You know yourself best so think about what kind of job you wanna do. narrow it done to combat arms, support arms. than specific field such as infantry or engineering or medical. than you can ask recruiters the specifics on what an infantry officer does Vs. and infantry NCM.

Also keep in mind the CF might need you in a trade more than others. Not saying you should choose what's in demand but just keep an open mind and maybe the trade you want  might not be available     

ps: I'm applying for med tech(NCM) right now and im currently attending a civi university. Like alot have said above officers are not more important than NCMs in any way

 

[dwalter]

Well I have to say that although I was accepted for ROTP, I wasn't actually sure if I was going to be. I told myself that I would have absolutely no qualms about finishing university on my own, and then going in as an NCM, either Med Tech or AVN Tech. As everyone said it's all about what you want to be doing. I find myself leading without realizing it, especially at university, and I enjoy it. I figured that I'd really like to do that as a career. Also some of the 'specialist' officer trades (Medical, Dental, and Legal) are also very appealing in the military environment.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I know an Reg F Infantry Officer who made it to LCol with a Gr 11 Quebec education, before he was forced to take a year off to get a degree.  As far as I can tell, he is not smarter now, just more educated.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Quote by Lumber

I am certain I will at some point run into an NCM who is both smarter then me and more competent than me.

I would have guessed that by now, you would have realized many here are, at least, your peers. Stick with that attitude, and you'll find out how much smarter and more competent NCMs are, than you are, when you start 'leading' them. Come across like that and they'll eat you alive. Grizzled old NCOs & WOs just love playing with a cocky, arrogant youngster that thinks he knows everything. You'll either be with them or against them, and I know what side I'd rather be on.

 

[George Wallace]

The requirement for all officers to have a university degree is a holdover from the OLD days when officers were considered 'gentlemen' and a cut above their troops. It evolved into a requirement for officership (minus some exceptions like CFR's) because having a degree *implies* that one is capable of organisation, problem solving etc. 

I have no idea who those officers were, but they were obviously not students of history.  It has only been in the last ten years that it has been mandated from the top that all officers should have a degree.  Before that, there were many who did not have degrees.  Some acquired degrees while in the CF.  Others did not. 

 

[Reccesoldier]

I am certain I will at some point run into an NCM who is both smarter then than me and more competent than me. I chose to be an Officer because I want to lead, because anytime I have ever been given the chance to be in charge of something I found took the responsibility very comfortably; (Which one?  You either found the responsibility came comfortably or you took to the responsibility comfortably)  I could think fast and make quick and clear decisions (regardless of whether or not they were the best decisions  :) and it just felt very natural to me.

Just wanted to clear up your grammar and syntax a bit to make you easier to understand.

Now, these are all traits that I'm sure would benefit an NCM as well. NCOs are leaders after all as well.

I can't express just how thankful I am that you acknowledge us poor NCO's this way.  We're so grateful that people like you will be leading us. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I bet that there are a whole slew of Naval NCO's that can't wait to get you (and your ego) on Phase 5.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

OK folks,.....not that the young lad hasn't deserved the lashing he got but lets hope he learns something from this thread before its too late for him.

If possible, lets carry on with the topic at hand and maybe others can learn.

Thanks,
Bruce
[Grade 9 dropout ]

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I know there is a huge thread on this from a couple of years ago I must look up this afternoon.

 

[garb811]

For those of you interested (like me) in why a degree is deemed necessary for officers (we're getting on a tangent here) in this day in age (as the need to differentiate between men and gentlemen is long gone) and why it was ultimatly decided (as George said) that all officers in the CF MUST have a degree..I offer up the following article.

http://www.rmc.ca/boardgov/reports/withers/06_developingofficer_e.html

It's an interesting read and perspective.

In Mar 97 the MND published a series of reports as the first steps towards recovering from the Somalia scandal.  Amongst those asked to contribute reports were esteemed academics such as J.L. Granatstein, Thomas Dimoff, Desmond Morton etc.  A common thread through many of the reports was the fact that Canadian Officers were an uneducated lot and that a degree should be a requirement.  The reports are at this link.

A couple of interesting quotes from J.L. Granatstein's Annex H:

The CF has a remarkably ill-educated officer corps, surely one of the worst in the Western world. Only 53.29 percent of officers have a university degree and only 6.79 percent have graduate degrees, most in technical areas. Almost a quarter of the officer corps has only high school education. By comparison, in the United States armed forces, virtually every officer has a degree and, for all practical purposes, as in the USAF, the standard for promotion to major is a graduate degree. Roughly nine in ten of American general officers have graduate degrees and, while some of these are "soft" qualifications, most are not. The result, one officer who had served with the US forces put it, is that the US general officer corps is "a collegial intelligentsia." No one could say this of the CF senior leaders.

And, perhaps not surprising as I don't think he knew the answer to the question when he asked it but I assume he assumed he knew the answer:

No one who has taught in a university for thirty years has any illusions left about the quality of Canadian higher education or the certainty of education's civilizing effects. Nonetheless, it might be instructive for the Minister to ask how many of the officers caught up in the CAR's Somalia troubles had university degrees. (my bold)

Not long thereafter, the Officer Candidate Training Plan was suspended and it wasn't until CEOTP was implemented that you could be comissioned without a degree unless you were CFR'd.