coming out of university and joining enlisting as an NCM?

[geo]

I have heard that there are Warrant Officers with degrees in political science that are good leaders and also like being NCOs!

Umm... present and accounted for... Sah!

 

[Lumber]

The Nicholson Report is a good read. I posted the Wither's Report as a reference of sorts as to why the CF has a degreed officer corps (not why we should or shouldn't, but the actual reason why it happened). I don't agree with it, personally.

In fact, I'm against the idea that a university education automatically confers higher levels of anything on anyone. It doesn't. Take my case. My MOC is land logistics. My degree is Criminal Justice and Public Policy. Neither has anything to do with the other, except that my CJPP degree fullfills the 'generic BA' requirement that is accepted if you are not taking a 'preferred degree' for your trade. Sure, finance/management degrees are preferred for log types, but a generic BA is acceptable. Unless I'm an MPO, my degree does not bring anything major to the table for my job...aside from say some lessons in writing style, organisation etc. And most of THAT is self taught or can be taught through the CF at one of the various staff officer courses.

So unless your taking a degree in engineering or the medical sciences because you are going to be an engineering or medical officer, for example, then I do not see the logic in forcing young officers to go to the Royal Military Gongshow in Kingston, or some other alcohol-soaked university full of immature idiots with good student lines of credit solely for the purpose of getting a degree that they don't need. 

I wouldn't say you get NOTHING out of University education. No matter what the degree is, undergoing the education teaches you to think both critically and analytically, among other less tangible benefits. However, some people, all more senior and experienced then I, pointed out in another thread (where we debated the exact same thing *sigh*) that these are traits that are better suited for senior and flag officers, not tactical level officers.

Not necessarily MHO, but it's food for thought.

 

[davidk]

[...]these are traits that are better suited for senior and flag officers, not tactical level officers.

Lumber, critical and analytical thinking are good traits for anyone to have, including junior officers, and, heavens forbid, NCMS...

 

[infamous_p]

I decided I wanted to be an Officer not because I thought as an Officer I was the best, the brightest, that NCMs were "below me".

Take note of this point here, and continue reading...

I am certain I will at some point run into an NCM who is both smarter then me and more competent than me.

...and now, in this line, you successfully put NCMs below you. You bring to light some sort of an irony here in the fact that you (may) run into an NCM smarter and more competent than you. Could you explain this irony? Why is it ironic that you may run into an NCM smarter and more competent?

Subliminal message in the first sentence, perhaps?

 

[Jarnhamar]

cleared up below

 

[DONT_PANIC]

On a side note, with regards to the NCM with degrees, one of the most remarkable things that I found when sailing on MCDVs is that, like many reservists, people joined for help through school, and stayed in the reserves when they graduated.  However, this gives a tremendous quantity of education to each crew.  For example, part of the refrigeration system overheated, and the stoker in the space happened to inhale some of the released coolant.  It just so happened that one of the master seamen had a masters degree in resperatory therapy.  While this might be an extreme example, I've known plenty of NCMs who were finishing law school, or were RNs and such.  Always nice when in addition the the reg force med tech we've been loaned, there are 2 nurses aboard too.

 

[Lumber]

Take note of this point here, and continue reading...

...and now, in this line, you successfully put NCMs below you. You bring to light some sort of an irony here in the fact that you (may) run into an NCM smarter and more competent than you. Could you explain this irony? Why is it ironic that you may run into an NCM smarter and more competent?

Subliminal message in the first sentence, perhaps?

Did you notice the word NOT in the first quote?

AS for the second quote, I'm actually still scratching my head on that one (notice I posted at 333am?). I was trying to highlight that I am not one of those who wanted to be an Officer because Officers are "a cut above" the NCMs. I guess it should have read:

"I am certain there are NCMs who are smarter and more competent than Officers, just as there are Officers who are smarter and more competent that NCMs."


Or something to that effect.

Basically I was trying to say (with the rest of the paragraph) that being an Officer or being an NCM isn't about your level of competency or intelligence, it's about what you want to do in your career.


Is that more clear? :-\ I wasn't trying to put anyone down.

 

[infamous_p]

Did you notice the word NOT in the first quote?

Yes, I did, which was why I pointed the first quote out - because the second one was a contradiction to the first.

Did you notice the word NOT in the first quote?

AS for the second quote, I'm actually still scratching my head on that one (notice I posted at 333am?). I was trying to highlight that I am not one of those who wanted to be an Officer because Officers are "a cut above" the NCMs. I guess it should have read:

"I am certain there are NCMs who are smarter and more competent than Officers, just as there are Officers who are smarter and more competent that NCMs."


Or something to that effect.

Basically I was trying to say (with the rest of the paragraph) that being an Officer or being an NCM isn't about your level of competency or intelligence, it's about what you want to do in your career.


Is that more clear? :-\ I wasn't trying to put anyone down.

Yes, I was very clear on what you were trying to say from the start. However, the point that I was trying to make is that although maybe <b><i>I</i></b> understood what you were saying, it was unclear enough to have the potential to offend any number of other people who may misinterpret your statement due to its clarity issues.

I am simply making the point that when making a statement about a matter such as this which could, under some circumstances, be considered "sensitive" because you are comparing two different groups of people, it is <b><i>very</b></i> important to ensure that your message is very clear and concise. Doing so will prevent misinterpretation and the offense of others.. regardless of whether or not it's 3:33 am.

 

[Reccesoldier]

Traits that can be learned without the need for stuck up professors, WAY over priced textbooks and all the other BS that goes along with universities.

Not according to the CF , the very same entity that decided that I required remedial training in the form of an ILQ after having decided themselves that I was not only worthy of being a Warrant Officer, but that I had also passed the technical requirements ofd that position by learning how to lead an Armoured Recce Troop.

These skills include the ability to do research, read specialized documentation, and write an analysis. While preparing assignments, the candidate will learn how to structure and explain his ideas in the form of a rational argument based on concrete facts and reference material.

http://www.cmrsj-rmcsj.forces.gc.ca/ilqdl/engraph/home_e.asp

Bollocks.  If I didn't know how to "form of a rational argument based on concrete facts and reference material" then they never should have promoted me past the rank of Cpl.

The pendulum has swung, and as usual it has gone way too far.

 

[George Wallace]

;D

These skills include the ability to do research, read specialized documentation, and write an analysis. While preparing assignments, the candidate will learn how to structure and explain his ideas in the form of a rational argument based on concrete facts and reference material.

http://www.cmrsj-rmcsj.forces.gc.ca/ilqdl/engraph/home_e.asp


Those are the qualities of a good Cpl INT OP.

;D

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

...or a Correctional Officer,...only present them to a very hostile reception group. :warstory:

 

[Future Prodigy]

Again, skills that can be learned at one of the various command and staff colleges that you have to attend anyways if you want to be a senior officer. Sure, a free degree is great, because regrettebly 'degree' has become synonymous with 'experience' or 'intelligence' depending on where you are applying for a job (CF, civvie side, whatever). I think higher education, especially in the areas of the arts and social sciences is an absolute sham.   

Thanks for making my point for me.

I think higher education in anything other than the liberal arts is a absolute sham! All other fields are concerned solely with pragmatical thinking and nothing to do with the historical 'higher learning.' Have you ever engaged in a debate with a science major or business student?! Comment on their ethical worldview after that discussion... this rampant dispargaing of liberal arts students has got to stop. It is ignorance/arrogance beyond any measure, and i am writting this in a libral arts class right now, so i will not justify your message with a full response as it is taking away from my class time.

 

[aesop081]

Methinks this thread is reaching its end.

 

[benny88]

  Haha, you think Guelph is like Laguna? I challenge you to visiting Western  :-X

  Sometime I feel the same way in that I want to get on with my training and do the job that I signed up for. But don't devalue your degree or the experience you get @ Civvy-U, hopefully you'll remember it fondly one day.

 

[garb811]

Piper: 

While I appreciate the fact that you want to get on with it and do what you signed up to do, the fact is, right now the CF wants you to be in school earning your degree.  At some point in our career many of us hit a posting where it seems like our "talents, skills and time" are being wasted but the truth is we can't always get what we want all of the time.  At that point you have to make a choice; either make the best of a bad situation and give it your best effort or become the unit moaner who drags everyone down.  How people react in those situations says much about their true character traits and it is noticed by those above.

Another way to look at it is, which is more beneficial to the CF, to put you through school at your current rank or let you into CEOTP?  Right now, you are "cheap" (low salary, minimal training investment etc).  Later on either they put you through the rest of your courses as a fully trained and experienced Capt when you would really be of benefit to a unit or you have the extra workload of correspondence on your own time possibly impact your primary duties.  Take it from someone who is doing correspondence and juggling work and a family:  don't be a fool, stay in school! (props out to Mr T!)

 

[benny88]

Oh, you guys at Western are worse then us. It's like a bloody fashion convention every time you get dressed in the morning down there (I'm no better, having fallen into the fashion trap in some respects, but hey....Mustangs Sucks, Go Gryphons  ).

  At the risk of having this Radio Chatter-ed: Yates Cup baby!

And all the popped collars here make me wish for my trusty C7A2.

Back on topic troops. 8)

 

[Franko]

.....and i am writting this in a libral arts class right now, so i will not justify your message with a full response as it is taking away from my class time.

So instead of concentrating on your studies and actually learning something you come on this site? Talk about having your priorities screwed up.

I won't even get into your spelling mistakes....for making a first impression of a Liberal Arts "Prodigy" your off to a flying start.

Regards

 

[Infanteer]

I know an Reg F Infantry Officer who made it to LCol with a Gr 11 Quebec education, before he was forced to take a year off to get a degree.  As far as I can tell, he is not smarter now, just more educated.

Lol.  I almost missed this one.  I know him too....

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I know him too....

Sadly, he is still a knob....

 

[Goose]

Hey everyone.... It seems that I'm in the same situation as alot of people in this thread, so I was wondering if anyone could give me some much-needed facts that I cant really find on the site. I'm graduating with an honors BA with a double major next week, and I know that the CF is where I want to go> The problem is, I dont know if I should go NCm or officer. (Granted, I know that their are high and low points for both positions). I want to have the 'hands on' job of a medic, with all the training opportunities and such that it involves. I'm on my provincial search and rescue team and have been a lifeguard for 10 years- so it's something I've got a bit of a knack for. On the other hand, I've always gravitated towards leadership positions, and don't know how well I would do if I couldn't 'think for myself.' (not meaning to insult anyone here, It's just what i've heard civi-side). I guess the road that I am most strongly attracted to right now would be to join up as a Med tech, do my 6 years, and then see (If I don't absolutely love it) if I can OT up to officer. My question is, what are the odds that I will be able to do this? I would be much more comfortable signing up reg force if I knew that I had a reasonable chance of becoming an officer, SHOULD I ever want too. Any input? thanks- Goose.