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Posted by "Ian Edwards" <iedwards@home.com> on Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:18:19 -0700
I‘m willing to give odds that it was a machine that signed on behalf of
Beatty/Sauve. That‘s the way they have been done I know of a few
exceptions for the last 35 years at least. That‘s a pity, for something so
important. And for the 10 minutes per day that it would take the "higher
paid help" wouldn‘t get writers‘ cramp.
----- Original Message -----
From: Beth MacFarlane
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
Officer relationship
> Hey Mike!
> Guess who signed my scroll? Perrin Beatty and Her Excellency Jeanne
Sauve. It
> seems so long ago and I was quite proud when I received it. 1986. A
lifetime
> ago. :.
> Beth
>
> Mike Oleary wrote:
>
> > A few applicable notes on Commissions:
> >
> > "To possess authority over one‘s fellow man is no mean thing. The
Queen‘s
> > commission can make an officer but it cannot make a Gentleman." - 1RCR
Guide
> > for Young Officers, March 1972
> >
> > "His Majesty the King has done me the honour of conferring upon me a
> > Commission as an Officer. This is the greatest honour that can be
conferred
> > upon any man. It places me in a position of authority and responsibility
in
> > the service of my King and Country in the most ancient and honourable
> > profession in the world." - "An Officer‘s Code" from the Alberta
Military
> > Institute Journal, 1925, reprinted in Gunner Bulletin No 17, Summer,
1990
> >
> > "When you join your organization you will find there a willing body of
men
> > who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that will command their
> > respect, their loyalty, and their obedience.... Commissions will not
make
> > you leaders they will merely make you officers. They will place you in
a
> > position where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
> > attributes." - Maj Christian Bach, address "Leadership." 1918
> >
> > Mike
> > http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
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Posted by "John Gow" <jgow@home.com> on Wed, 28 Mar 2001 23:41:44 -0500
Sorry Ian, but I‘d sooner the ministers of the government did not have to
personally ink their signatures on commissions...really what a waste of
time..
Let them instead ink their signatures to any number of things...such as
orders that would bring better harmony to the Forces better treatment and
reward to the men, protection and coverage to their families, an improvement
to the induction process...well, the list is long, but you get the
point...their autograph on a scroll is pretty small potato‘s in the overall
meal..
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Edwards"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: Commission,
> I‘m willing to give odds that it was a machine that signed on behalf of
> Beatty/Sauve. That‘s the way they have been done I know of a few
> exceptions for the last 35 years at least. That‘s a pity, for something
so
> important. And for the 10 minutes per day that it would take the "higher
> paid help" wouldn‘t get writers‘ cramp.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Beth MacFarlane
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:57 PM
> Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
> Officer relationship
>
>
> > Hey Mike!
> > Guess who signed my scroll? Perrin Beatty and Her Excellency Jeanne
> Sauve. It
> > seems so long ago and I was quite proud when I received it. 1986. A
> lifetime
> > ago. :.
> > Beth
> >
> > Mike Oleary wrote:
> >
> > > A few applicable notes on Commissions:
> > >
> > > "To possess authority over one‘s fellow man is no mean thing. The
> Queen‘s
> > > commission can make an officer but it cannot make a Gentleman." - 1RCR
> Guide
> > > for Young Officers, March 1972
> > >
> > > "His Majesty the King has done me the honour of conferring upon me a
> > > Commission as an Officer. This is the greatest honour that can be
> conferred
> > > upon any man. It places me in a position of authority and
responsibility
> in
> > > the service of my King and Country in the most ancient and honourable
> > > profession in the world." - "An Officer‘s Code" from the Alberta
> Military
> > > Institute Journal, 1925, reprinted in Gunner Bulletin No 17, Summer,
> 1990
> > >
> > > "When you join your organization you will find there a willing body of
> men
> > > who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that will command
their
> > > respect, their loyalty, and their obedience.... Commissions will not
> make
> > > you leaders they will merely make you officers. They will place you
in
> a
> > > position where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
> > > attributes." - Maj Christian Bach, address "Leadership." 1918
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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Posted by m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary on Thu, 29 Mar 2001 00:20:30 -0500
Mine was signed in 83 and they are original signatures. I know this because
Ed Schreyer had an incompetent staff that provided him with a pen that had
ink that fades.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Edwards
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: Commission,
> I‘m willing to give odds that it was a machine that signed on behalf of
> Beatty/Sauve. That‘s the way they have been done I know of a few
> exceptions for the last 35 years at least. That‘s a pity, for something
so
> important. And for the 10 minutes per day that it would take the "higher
> paid help" wouldn‘t get writers‘ cramp.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
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Posted by "Ian McGregor" <imcgrego@hotmail.com> on Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:29:32 -0500
There are a few changes to the scroll. "men" is changed to "non
commissioned members," and Canada is listed after the UK and before "her
other realms" in the introduction.
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Oleary"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:12 PM
Subject: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
Officer relationship
> That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission is the formal
granting
> of authority as an officer in the Canadian Forces both in the rank of
> commissioning and in future ranks.
>
> The following is the text from my scroll:
> _______________________________________________
>
> Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom,
Canada and Her
> other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender
of
> the Faith, to
>
>
> Hereby appointed an Officer in Her Majesty‘s Canadian Armed Forces.
> With Seniority of the day of 19 .
>
> We, reposing especial Trust and Confidence in your Loyalty, Courage
and
> Integrity, do by these Presents Constitute and Appoint you to be an
officer
> in our Canadian Armed Forces. You area therefore carefully and
diligently to
> discharge your Duty as such in the rank of Or
in
> such other Rank as We may from time to time hereafter be pleased to
promote
> or appoint you to, and you are in such manner and on such occasions as
may
> be prescribed by Us to exercise and well discipline both the Inferior
> Officers and Non Commissioned Members serving under you and use your
best endeavour to keep them
> in good Order and Discipline. And We do hereby Command them to Obey
you as
> their Superior Officer, and you to observe and follow such Orders and
> Directions as from time to time you shall receive from Us, or any your
> Superior Officer according to Law, in pursuance of the Trust hereby
reposed
> in you.
>
> In witness Whereof Our Governor General of Canada hath hereunto set
her hand
> and Seal at our Government House in the City of Ottawa this day
of
> in the Year of Our Lord One Two Thousand and in the
> Year of Our Reign.
>
> By Command of Her Excellency the Governor General
>
> Minister of National Defence
> _________________________________________________
>
> Mike
> http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com
>
> PS to Joan - the PC-gender remark should have been taken facetiously,
sorry
> if it struck a nerve. You have in fact established yourself well on
this
> means and no disrespect was to be inferred, You do remain our only, if
not
> one of very few, female correspondents. Cheers. mikey
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joan O. Arc
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PM
> Subject: Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer
relationship
>
>
> > To come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could
someone
> > please tell me what "commission" means in this context and what
factors
> > determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know this is very, very
basic
> > stuff, but without this one little piece of info., I‘m afraid much
else
> that
> > is being discussed at least partially sails over my head.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Joan
> >
> > PS - On this gender reference stuff, let me clarify - at some risk!
- the
> > post that seemed to get me into such hot water with John a while
back.
> When
> > I said, "I don‘t expect special treatment, I just want a chance to
kick
> your
> > [referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list]
tush,"
> what
> > I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would NEVER expect
anyone to
> > water down job standards/requirements for me simply because I‘m a
girl. In
> > fact, I would be insulted by an organization/employer that did.
> >
> > In a civilian context - which is, of course, where I work - what
this
> means
> > is that I feel myself well able to compete with anyone in my field,
> > regardless of age, gender, etc., under any circumstances.
> >
> > In a military context, however, it would mean I would neither seek -
nor
> > succeed in - combat-type roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling,
> basically!,
> > UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is something
> neither
> > I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should either expect or
tolerate.
> >
> > Hope this is all clear now. I fear I didn‘t explain my position on
this
> > recurring isue at all well last time, for which I apologize.
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
> > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > To:
> > Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> > Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 -0500
> >
> > Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my database
> >
> > Mike
> > http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com
> > _______________________________________________________
> >
> > The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officer
> >
> > No one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned Officer,
a
> > leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize that I
am a
> > member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of
the
> > Army."
> >
> > I am proud of the Corps of the Non-commissioned Officers and will at
all
> > times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the
Military
> > Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find
myself.
> I
> > will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or
personal
> > safety.
> >
> > Competence is my watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will
always be
> > uppermost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the welfare
of my
> > soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically
proficient. I
> > am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will fulfill my
> > responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to
> > outstanding leadership I will provide that leadership. I know my
soldiers
> > and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate
> > consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I
will be
> > fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.
> >
> > Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their
duties
> they
> > will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and
confidence
> > as well as that of my soldiers. I will be loyal to those with whom
I
> serve
> > seniors, peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by
> taking
> > appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise
my
> > integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow
my
> > comrades to forget that we are professionals, Non-commissioned
Officers,
> > leaders!
> >
> > The United States Army
> > Non-commissioned Officers Academy
> > Fort Knox, Kentucky
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: The MacFarlanes‘
> > To:
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> >
> >
> > > A long time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American
friends, a
> > Snr
> > > NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I have also had a piece of
paper
> > that
> > > compared Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also one
of
> > those,
> > > who had, but cannot produce...
> > > Ubique
> > > Mac
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
There are a few
changes to the scroll. "men" is changed to "non commissioned
members," and
Canada is listed after the UK and before "her other realms" in the
introduction.
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Oleary" ltm.oleary@ns.sympatico.cagt
To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagt
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:12
PM
Subject: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed
US Army,
was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
gt That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission is
the formal
grantinggt of authority as an officer in the Canadian Forces both
in the
rank ofgt commissioning and in future ranks.gt gt The
following is the text from my scroll:gt
_______________________________________________gt gt
Elizabeth the
Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom,
Canadaand Hergt other Realms and Territories Queen,
Head of
the Commonwealth, Defender ofgt the Faith, togt
ltrecipient‘s
namegtgt gt Hereby appointed an Officer in Her Majesty‘s
Canadian
Armed Forces.gt With Seniority of the lt--gt day of lt--gt
19
lt--gt.gt gt We, reposing especial Trust and Confidence
in your
Loyalty, Courage andgt Integrity, do by these Presents Constitute
and
Appoint you to be an officergt in our Canadian Armed Forces. You
area
therefore carefully and diligently togt discharge your Duty as
such in the
rank of ltrank of commissioninggt Or ingt such other Rank as
We may
from time to time hereafter be pleased to promotegt or appoint you
to, and
you are in such manner and on such occasions as maygt be
prescribed by Us
to exercise and well discipline both the Inferiorgt Officers
andNon Commissioned Membersserving under
you and
use your best endeavour to keep themgt in good Order and
Discipline. And
We do hereby Command them to Obey you asgt their Superior Officer,
and you
to observe and follow such Orders andgt Directions as from time to
time
you shall receive from Us, or any yourgt Superior Officer
according to
Law, in pursuance of the Trust hereby reposedgt in you.gt
gt
In witness Whereof Our Governor General of Canada hath hereunto
sether
handgt and Seal at our Government House in the City of Ottawa
this lt--gt day of lt--gtgt in the
Year of
Our Lord One Two Thousand and in the lt--gtgt
Year of
Our Reign.gt gt By Command ofHer
Excellency
the Governor General ltseal and signaturegtgt gt
Minister of
National Defence ltsignaturegtgt
_________________________________________________gt gt
Mikegt
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.comgt gt PS to Joan - the PC-gender remark should have
been taken
facetiously, sorrygt if it struck a nerve. You have in fact
established
yourself well on thisgt means and no disrespect was to be
inferred, You do
remain our only, if notgt one of very few, female correspondents.
Cheers.
mikey gt gt gt gt ----- Original
Message
-----gt From: Joan O. Arc ltjoan_o_arc@hotmail.comgtgt To:
ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt Sent:
Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PMgt Subject: Re: NCO Creed US
Army, was
Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationshipgt gt gt gt To come
back to
a very basic question I asked a while ago, could someonegt gt
please
tell me what "commission" means in this context and what factorsgt
gt
determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know this is very, very
basicgt
gt stuff, but without this one little piece of info., I‘m afraid much
elsegt thatgt gt is being discussed at least partially
sails over
my head.gt gtgt gt Thanks,gt gtgt gt
Joangt gtgt gt PS - On this gender reference stuff, let
me
clarify - at some risk! - thegt gt post that seemed to get me
into such
hot water with John a while back.gt Whengt gt I said, "I
don‘t
expect special treatment, I just want a chance to kickgt
yourgt gt
[referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list]
tush,"gt
whatgt gt I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would
NEVER expect
anyone togt gt water down job standards/requirements for me
simply
because I‘m a girl. Ingt gt fact, I would be insulted by an
organization/employer that did.gt gtgt gt In a civilian
context
- which is, of course, where I work - what thisgt meansgt
gt is
that I feel myself well able to compete with anyone in my field,gt
gt
regardless of age, gender, etc., under any circumstances.gt
gtgt
gt In a military context, however, it would mean I would neither seek
-
norgt gt succeed in - combat-type roles because I am a 98-lb.
weakling,gt basically!,gt gt UNLESS someone watered down
the
standards for me. This is somethinggt neithergt gt I, nor
any
other woman - in my opinion - should either expect or tolerate.gt
gtgt gt Hope this is all clear now. I fear I didn‘t explain my
position on thisgt gt recurring isue at all well last time, for
which I
apologize.gt gtgt gtgt gt ----Original Message
Follows----gt gt From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca
Mike
Olearygt gt Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.cagt gt To:
ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt gt
Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer
relationshipgt gt
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 -0500gt gtgt gt Ask and
you
shall receive if it‘s already in my databasegt gtgt gt
Mikegt gt http://regimentalrogue.tripod.comgt gt
_______________________________________________________gt
gtgt
gt The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officergt gtgt gt
No one
is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned Officer, agt
gt
leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize that I am
agt
gt member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of
thegt gt Army."gt gtgt gt I am proud of the
Corps of the
Non-commissioned Officers and will at allgt gt times conduct
myself so
as to bring credit upon the Corps, the Militarygt gt Service and
my
country regardless of the situation in which I find myself.gt
Igt
gt will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or
personalgt gt safety.gt gtgt gt Competence is my
watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will always begt gt
uppermost
in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of mygt
gt
soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically proficient.
Igt gt am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will
fulfill
mygt gt responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are
entitled togt gt outstanding leadership I will provide that
leadership.
I know my soldiersgt gt and I will always place their needs
above my
own. I will communicategt gt consistently with my soldiers and
never
leave them uninformed. I will begt gt fair and impartial when
recommending both rewards and punishment.gt gtgt gt
Officers of
my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their dutiesgt
theygt
gt will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and
confidencegt gt as well as that of my soldiers. I will be
loyal to
those with whom Igt servegt gt seniors, peers and
subordinates
alike. I will exercise initiative bygt takinggt gt
appropriate
action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise mygt gt
integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow
mygt
gt comrades to forget that we are professionals, Non-commissioned
Officers,gt gt leaders!gt gtgt gt
The United
States Armygt gt Non-commissioned Officers Academygt gt
Fort
Knox, Kentuckygt gtgt gtgt gt ----- Original
Message
-----gt gt From: The MacFarlanes‘ ltdesrtrat@amug.orggtgt gt To:
ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt gt
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PMgt gt Subject: Re: Sr NCO /
Officer
relationshipgt gtgt gtgt gt gt A long
time ago,
I had given to me, from one of my American friends, agt gt
Snrgt
gt gt NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I have also had a
piece of
papergt gt thatgt gt gt compared Oficers‘ tasks,
to Snr
NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also one ofgt gt those,gt
gt gt
who had, but cannot produce...gt gt gt Ubiquegt
gt
gt Macgt gtgt gtgt gt
--------------------------------------------------------gt gt
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt
gt to
majordomo@CdnArmy.ca
from the account
you wish togt gt remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list"
in
thegt gt message body.gt gtgt gt
_________________________________________________________________________
gt
gt Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.gt
gtgt gt
--------------------------------------------------------gt gt
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt
gt to
majordomo@CdnArmy.ca
from the account
you wish togt gt remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list"
in
thegt gt message body.gt gtgt gt
--------------------------------------------------------gt
NOTE: To
remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca
from the account
you wish togt remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in
thegt
message body.gt
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
 

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Posted by "Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com> on Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:21:45 -0700
Actually, when I first joined, I misunderstood the question. The
recruiter asked, "commission?". I said, "**** no, straight wage!"
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian McGregor
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 9:29 AM
Subject: Fw: Commission
There are a few changes to the scroll. "men" is changed to "non
commissioned members," and Canada is listed after the UK and before "her
other realms" in the introduction.

Ian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Oleary"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:12 PM
Subject: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
Officer relationship
> That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission is the formal
granting
> of authority as an officer in the Canadian Forces both in the rank
of
> commissioning and in future ranks.
>
> The following is the text from my scroll:
> _______________________________________________
>
> Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom,
Canada and Her
> other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth,
Defender of
> the Faith, to
>
>
> Hereby appointed an Officer in Her Majesty‘s Canadian Armed Forces.
> With Seniority of the day of 19 .
>
> We, reposing especial Trust and Confidence in your Loyalty, Courage
and
> Integrity, do by these Presents Constitute and Appoint you to be an
officer
> in our Canadian Armed Forces. You area therefore carefully and
diligently to
> discharge your Duty as such in the rank of
Or in
> such other Rank as We may from time to time hereafter be pleased to
promote
> or appoint you to, and you are in such manner and on such occasions
as may
> be prescribed by Us to exercise and well discipline both the
Inferior
> Officers and Non Commissioned Members serving under you and use your
best endeavour to keep them
> in good Order and Discipline. And We do hereby Command them to Obey
you as
> their Superior Officer, and you to observe and follow such Orders
and
> Directions as from time to time you shall receive from Us, or any
your
> Superior Officer according to Law, in pursuance of the Trust hereby
reposed
> in you.
>
> In witness Whereof Our Governor General of Canada hath hereunto set
her hand
> and Seal at our Government House in the City of Ottawa this
day of
> in the Year of Our Lord One Two Thousand and in the
> Year of Our Reign.
>
> By Command of Her Excellency the Governor General
>
> Minister of National Defence
> _________________________________________________
>
> Mike
> http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com
>
> PS to Joan - the PC-gender remark should have been taken
facetiously, sorry
> if it struck a nerve. You have in fact established yourself well on
this
> means and no disrespect was to be inferred, You do remain our only,
if not
> one of very few, female correspondents. Cheers. mikey
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joan O. Arc
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PM
> Subject: Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer
relationship
>
>
> > To come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could
someone
> > please tell me what "commission" means in this context and what
factors
> > determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know this is very, very
basic
> > stuff, but without this one little piece of info., I‘m afraid much
else
> that
> > is being discussed at least partially sails over my head.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Joan
> >
> > PS - On this gender reference stuff, let me clarify - at some
risk! - the
> > post that seemed to get me into such hot water with John a while
back.
> When
> > I said, "I don‘t expect special treatment, I just want a chance to
kick
> your
> > [referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list]
tush,"
> what
> > I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would NEVER expect
anyone to
> > water down job standards/requirements for me simply because I‘m a
girl. In
> > fact, I would be insulted by an organization/employer that did.
> >
> > In a civilian context - which is, of course, where I work - what
this
> means
> > is that I feel myself well able to compete with anyone in my
field,
> > regardless of age, gender, etc., under any circumstances.
> >
> > In a military context, however, it would mean I would neither seek
- nor
> > succeed in - combat-type roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling,
> basically!,
> > UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is
something
> neither
> > I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should either expect or
tolerate.
> >
> > Hope this is all clear now. I fear I didn‘t explain my position on
this
> > recurring isue at all well last time, for which I apologize.
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
> > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > To:
> > Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer
relationship
> > Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 -0500
> >
> > Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my database
> >
> > Mike
> > http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com
> > _______________________________________________________
> >
> > The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officer
> >
> > No one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned
Officer, a
> > leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize that
I am a
> > member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of
the
> > Army."
> >
> > I am proud of the Corps of the Non-commissioned Officers and will
at all
> > times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the
Military
> > Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find
myself.
> I
> > will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or
personal
> > safety.
> >
> > Competence is my watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will
always be
> > uppermost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the
welfare of my
> > soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically
proficient. I
> > am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will fulfill
my
> > responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled
to
> > outstanding leadership I will provide that leadership. I know my
soldiers
> > and I will always place their needs above my own. I will
communicate
> > consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I
will be
> > fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.
> >
> > Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their
duties
> they
> > will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and
confidence
> > as well as that of my soldiers. I will be loyal to those with
whom I
> serve
> > seniors, peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative
by
> taking
> > appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise
my
> > integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I
allow my
> > comrades to forget that we are professionals, Non-commissioned
Officers,
> > leaders!
> >
> > The United States Army
> > Non-commissioned Officers Academy
> > Fort Knox, Kentucky
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: The MacFarlanes‘
> > To:
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> >
> >
> > > A long time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American
friends, a
> > Snr
> > > NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I have also had a piece of
paper
> > that
> > > compared Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also
one of
> > those,
> > > who had, but cannot produce...
> > > Ubique
> > > Mac
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Actually, when I first joined, I
misunderstood the
question. The recruiter asked, "commission?". I said, "****
no,
straight wage!"
Don
----- Original Message -----
From:
Ian amp
McGregor
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001
9:29
AM
Subject: Fw: Commission

There are a few
changes to the scroll. "men" is changed to "non commissioned
members,"
and Canada is listed after the UK and before "her other realms" in the
introduction.

Ian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Oleary" ltm.oleary@ns.sympatico.cagt
To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagt
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:12
PM
Subject: Commission, was Re: NCO
Creed US Army,
was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
gt That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission is
the formal
grantinggt of authority as an officer in the Canadian Forces
both in the
rank ofgt commissioning and in future ranks.gt gt
The
following is the text from my scroll:gt
_______________________________________________gt gt
Elizabeth the
Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom,
Canadaand Hergt other Realms and Territories
Queen, Head
of the Commonwealth, Defender ofgt the Faith, togt
ltrecipient‘s
namegtgt gt Hereby appointed an Officer in Her Majesty‘s
Canadian Armed Forces.gt With Seniority of the lt--gt day of
lt--gt 19 lt--gt.gt gt We, reposing especial Trust
and
Confidence in your Loyalty, Courage andgt Integrity, do by these
Presents Constitute and Appoint you to be an officergt in our
Canadian
Armed Forces. You area therefore carefully and diligently togt
discharge
your Duty as such in the rank of ltrank of commissioninggt Or
ingt
such other Rank as We may from time to time hereafter be pleased to
promotegt or appoint you to, and you are in such manner and on
such
occasions as maygt be prescribed by Us to exercise and well
discipline
both the Inferiorgt Officers andNon Commissioned
Membersserving under you and use your best endeavour to
keep
themgt in good Order and Discipline. And We do hereby Command
them to
Obey you asgt their Superior Officer, and you to observe and
follow such
Orders andgt Directions as from time to time you shall receive
from Us,
or any yourgt Superior Officer according to Law, in pursuance of
the
Trust hereby reposedgt in you.gt gt In witness
Whereof Our
Governor General of Canada hath hereunto sether handgt and
Seal at
our Government House in the City of Ottawa this
lt--gt day of lt--gtgt in the Year of Our Lord One
Two
Thousand and in the lt--gtgt Year of Our
Reign.gt
gt By Command ofHer Excellency the
Governor
General ltseal and signaturegtgt gt Minister of
National
Defence ltsignaturegtgt
_________________________________________________gt gt
Mikegt http://regimentalrogue.tripod.comgt gt PS to Joan - the PC-gender remark
should have
been taken facetiously, sorrygt if it struck a nerve. You have
in fact
established yourself well on thisgt means and no disrespect was
to be
inferred, You do remain our only, if notgt one of very few,
female
correspondents. Cheers. mikey gt gt gt
gt ----- Original Message -----gt From: Joan O. Arc
ltjoan_o_arc@hotmail.comgtgt
To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PMgt Subject: Re: NCO Creed
US
Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationshipgt gt gt
gt To
come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could
someonegt
gt please tell me what "commission" means in this context and what
factorsgt gt determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know
this is
very, very basicgt gt stuff, but without this one little piece
of
info., I‘m afraid much elsegt thatgt gt is being
discussed at
least partially sails over my head.gt gtgt gt
Thanks,gt
gtgt gt Joangt gtgt gt PS - On this gender
reference
stuff, let me clarify - at some risk! - thegt gt post that
seemed to
get me into such hot water with John a while back.gt
Whengt gt I
said, "I don‘t expect special treatment, I just want a chance to
kickgt
yourgt gt [referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members
of this
list] tush,"gt whatgt gt I meant by "no special
treatment" is
that I would NEVER expect anyone togt gt water down job
standards/requirements for me simply because I‘m a girl. Ingt
gt fact,
I would be insulted by an organization/employer that did.gt
gtgt
gt In a civilian context - which is, of course, where I work - what
thisgt meansgt gt is that I feel myself well able to
compete
with anyone in my field,gt gt regardless of age, gender, etc.,
under
any circumstances.gt gtgt gt In a military context,
however,
it would mean I would neither seek - norgt gt succeed in -
combat-type
roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling,gt basically!,gt
gt
UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is
somethinggt
neithergt gt I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should
either
expect or tolerate.gt gtgt gt Hope this is all clear
now. I
fear I didn‘t explain my position on thisgt gt recurring isue
at all
well last time, for which I apologize.gt gtgt
gtgt gt
----Original Message Follows----gt gt From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike
Olearygt gt Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.cagt gt
To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt
gt Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer
relationshipgt gt Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17
-0500gt
gtgt gt Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my
databasegt gtgt gt Mikegt gt http://regimentalrogue.tripod.comgt gt
_______________________________________________________gt
gtgt
gt The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officergt gtgt
gt No
one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned Officer,
agt
gt leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize that
I am
agt gt member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The
Backbone
of thegt gt Army."gt gtgt gt I am proud of the
Corps
of the Non-commissioned Officers and will at allgt gt times
conduct
myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the Militarygt gt
Service
and my country regardless of the situation in which I find
myself.gt
Igt gt will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure,
profit,
or personalgt gt safety.gt gtgt gt Competence
is my
watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will always begt gt
uppermost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of
mygt gt soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and
technically
proficient. Igt gt am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned
Officer.
I will fulfill mygt gt responsibilities inherent in that role.
All
soldiers are entitled togt gt outstanding leadership I will
provide
that leadership. I know my soldiersgt gt and I will always
place their
needs above my own. I will communicategt gt consistently with
my
soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I will begt gt fair
and
impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.gt
gtgt
gt Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their
dutiesgt theygt gt will not have to accomplish mine. I
will
earn their respect and confidencegt gt as well as that of my
soldiers. I will be loyal to those with whom Igt
servegt
gt seniors, peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative
bygt takinggt gt appropriate action in the absence of
orders. I
will not compromise mygt gt integrity, nor my moral courage. I
will
not forget, nor will I allow mygt gt comrades to forget that
we are
professionals, Non-commissioned Officers,gt gt
leaders!gt
gtgt gt The United States Armygt gt
Non-commissioned Officers Academygt gt Fort Knox,
Kentuckygt
gtgt gtgt gt ----- Original Message -----gt
gt From:
The MacFarlanes‘ ltdesrtrat@amug.orggtgt gt To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt
gt Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PMgt gt Subject: Re:
Sr NCO /
Officer relationshipgt gtgt gtgt gt gt
A long
time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American friends,
agt gt
Snrgt gt gt NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I
have also
had a piece of papergt gt thatgt gt gt
compared
Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also one ofgt
gt
those,gt gt gt who had, but cannot produce...gt
gt gt Ubiquegt gt gt Macgt
gtgt
gtgt gt
--------------------------------------------------------gt gt
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt
gt to
majordomo@CdnArmy.ca
from the
account you wish togt gt remove, with the line "unsubscribe
army-list"
in thegt gt message body.gt gtgt gt

_________________________________________________________________________
gt
gt Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.gt
gtgt gt
--------------------------------------------------------gt gt
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt
gt to
majordomo@CdnArmy.ca
from the
account you wish togt gt remove, with the line "unsubscribe
army-list"
in thegt gt message body.gt gtgt gt
--------------------------------------------------------gt
NOTE:
To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca
from the
account you wish togt remove, with the line "unsubscribe
army-list" in
thegt message body.gt
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
 

army

Guest
Reaction score
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Points
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Posted by "dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com> on Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:06:40 -0800
LOL...good one
----- Original Message -----
From: Donald Schepens
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: Commission
Actually, when I first joined, I misunderstood the question. The
recruiter asked, "commission?". I said, "**** no, straight wage!"
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian McGregor
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 9:29 AM
Subject: Fw: Commission
There are a few changes to the scroll. "men" is changed to "non
commissioned members," and Canada is listed after the UK and before "her
other realms" in the introduction.

Ian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Oleary"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:12 PM
Subject: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
Officer relationship
> That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission is the formal
granting
> of authority as an officer in the Canadian Forces both in the rank
of
> commissioning and in future ranks.
>
> The following is the text from my scroll:
> _______________________________________________
>
> Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom,
Canada and Her
> other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth,
Defender of
> the Faith, to
>
>
> Hereby appointed an Officer in Her Majesty‘s Canadian Armed
Forces.
> With Seniority of the day of 19 .
>
> We, reposing especial Trust and Confidence in your Loyalty,
Courage and
> Integrity, do by these Presents Constitute and Appoint you to be
an officer
> in our Canadian Armed Forces. You area therefore carefully and
diligently to
> discharge your Duty as such in the rank of
Or in
> such other Rank as We may from time to time hereafter be pleased
to promote
> or appoint you to, and you are in such manner and on such
occasions as may
> be prescribed by Us to exercise and well discipline both the
Inferior
> Officers and Non Commissioned Members serving under you and use
your best endeavour to keep them
> in good Order and Discipline. And We do hereby Command them to
Obey you as
> their Superior Officer, and you to observe and follow such Orders
and
> Directions as from time to time you shall receive from Us, or any
your
> Superior Officer according to Law, in pursuance of the Trust
hereby reposed
> in you.
>
> In witness Whereof Our Governor General of Canada hath hereunto
set her hand
> and Seal at our Government House in the City of Ottawa this
day of
> in the Year of Our Lord One Two Thousand and in the
> Year of Our Reign.
>
> By Command of Her Excellency the Governor General
>
> Minister of National Defence
> _________________________________________________
>
> Mike
> http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com
>
> PS to Joan - the PC-gender remark should have been taken
facetiously, sorry
> if it struck a nerve. You have in fact established yourself well
on this
> means and no disrespect was to be inferred, You do remain our
only, if not
> one of very few, female correspondents. Cheers. mikey
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joan O. Arc
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PM
> Subject: Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer
relationship
>
>
> > To come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could
someone
> > please tell me what "commission" means in this context and what
factors
> > determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know this is very,
very basic
> > stuff, but without this one little piece of info., I‘m afraid
much else
> that
> > is being discussed at least partially sails over my head.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Joan
> >
> > PS - On this gender reference stuff, let me clarify - at some
risk! - the
> > post that seemed to get me into such hot water with John a while
back.
> When
> > I said, "I don‘t expect special treatment, I just want a chance
to kick
> your
> > [referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list]
tush,"
> what
> > I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would NEVER expect
anyone to
> > water down job standards/requirements for me simply because I‘m
a girl. In
> > fact, I would be insulted by an organization/employer that did.
> >
> > In a civilian context - which is, of course, where I work - what
this
> means
> > is that I feel myself well able to compete with anyone in my
field,
> > regardless of age, gender, etc., under any circumstances.
> >
> > In a military context, however, it would mean I would neither
seek - nor
> > succeed in - combat-type roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling,
> basically!,
> > UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is
something
> neither
> > I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should either expect or
tolerate.
> >
> > Hope this is all clear now. I fear I didn‘t explain my position
on this
> > recurring isue at all well last time, for which I apologize.
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
> > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > To:
> > Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer
relationship
> > Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 -0500
> >
> > Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my database
> >
> > Mike
> > http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com
> > _______________________________________________________
> >
> > The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officer
> >
> > No one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned
Officer, a
> > leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize
that I am a
> > member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone
of the
> > Army."
> >
> > I am proud of the Corps of the Non-commissioned Officers and
will at all
> > times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the
Military
> > Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I
find myself.
> I
> > will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or
personal
> > safety.
> >
> > Competence is my watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will
always be
> > uppermost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the
welfare of my
> > soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically
proficient. I
> > am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will
fulfill my
> > responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are
entitled to
> > outstanding leadership I will provide that leadership. I know
my soldiers
> > and I will always place their needs above my own. I will
communicate
> > consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I
will be
> > fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and
punishment.
> >
> > Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their
duties
> they
> > will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and
confidence
> > as well as that of my soldiers. I will be loyal to those with
whom I
> serve
> > seniors, peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise
initiative by
> taking
> > appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not
compromise my
> > integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I
allow my
> > comrades to forget that we are professionals, Non-commissioned
Officers,
> > leaders!
> >
> > The United States Army
> > Non-commissioned Officers Academy
> > Fort Knox, Kentucky
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: The MacFarlanes‘
> > To:
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> >
> >
> > > A long time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American
friends, a
> > Snr
> > > NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I have also had a piece
of paper
> > that
> > > compared Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also
one of
> > those,
> > > who had, but cannot produce...
> > > Ubique
> > > Mac
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
LOL...good one
----- Original Message -----
From:
Donald
Schepens
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001
11:21
AM
Subject: Re: Commission

Actually, when I first joined, I
misunderstood
the question. The recruiter asked, "commission?". I said,
"****
no, straight wage!"

Don

----- Original Message -----
From:
Ian amp
McGregor
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Sent: Thursday, March 29,
2001 9:29
AM
Subject: Fw: Commission

There are a few
changes to the scroll. "men" is changed to "non commissioned
members,"
and Canada is listed after the UK and before "her other realms" in
the
introduction.

Ian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Oleary" ltm.oleary@ns.sympatico.cagt
To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagt
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001
6:12
PM
Subject: Commission, was Re: NCO
Creed US
Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
gt That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission
is the
formal grantinggt of authority as an officer in the Canadian
Forces
both in the rank ofgt commissioning and in future
ranks.gt
gt The following is the text from my scroll:gt
_______________________________________________gt gt
Elizabeth
the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom,
Canadaand Hergt other Realms and Territories
Queen,
Head of the Commonwealth, Defender ofgt the Faith, togt
ltrecipient‘s namegtgt gt Hereby appointed an
Officer in Her
Majesty‘s Canadian Armed Forces.gt With Seniority of the
lt--gt
day of lt--gt 19 lt--gt.gt gt We, reposing
especial
Trust and Confidence in your Loyalty, Courage andgt Integrity,
do by
these Presents Constitute and Appoint you to be an officergt
in our
Canadian Armed Forces. You area therefore carefully and diligently
togt discharge your Duty as such in the rank of ltrank of
commissioninggt Or ingt such other Rank as We may from time
to time
hereafter be pleased to promotegt or appoint you to, and you
are in
such manner and on such occasions as maygt be prescribed by Us
to
exercise and well discipline both the Inferiorgt Officers
andNon Commissioned Membersserving
under you
and use your best endeavour to keep themgt in good Order and
Discipline. And We do hereby Command them to Obey you asgt
their
Superior Officer, and you to observe and follow such Orders
andgt
Directions as from time to time you shall receive from Us, or any
yourgt Superior Officer according to Law, in pursuance of the
Trust
hereby reposedgt in you.gt gt In witness Whereof
Our
Governor General of Canada hath hereunto sether handgt
and Seal
at our Government House in the City of Ottawa
this
lt--gt day of lt--gtgt in the Year of Our Lord One
Two
Thousand and in the lt--gtgt Year of Our
Reign.gt
gt By Command ofHer Excellency the
Governor
General ltseal and signaturegtgt gt Minister of
National
Defence ltsignaturegtgt
_________________________________________________gt gt
Mikegt http://regimentalrogue.tripod.comgt gt PS to Joan - the PC-gender
remark should
have been taken facetiously, sorrygt if it struck a nerve. You
have in
fact established yourself well on thisgt means and no
disrespect was
to be inferred, You do remain our only, if notgt one of very
few,
female correspondents. Cheers. mikey gt gt
gt gt ----- Original Message -----gt From: Joan O.
Arc
ltjoan_o_arc@hotmail.comgtgt
To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PMgt Subject: Re: NCO
Creed US
Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationshipgt gt
gt gt
To come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could
someonegt gt please tell me what "commission" means in this
context
and what factorsgt gt determine whether one is a CO or an
NCO? I
know this is very, very basicgt gt stuff, but without this
one
little piece of info., I‘m afraid much elsegt thatgt
gt is
being discussed at least partially sails over my head.gt
gtgt
gt Thanks,gt gtgt gt Joangt gtgt
gt PS -
On this gender reference stuff, let me clarify - at some risk! -
thegt
gt post that seemed to get me into such hot water with John a
while
back.gt Whengt gt I said, "I don‘t expect special
treatment, I
just want a chance to kickgt yourgt gt [referring to a
theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list] tush,"gt
whatgt
gt I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would NEVER expect
anyone
togt gt water down job standards/requirements for me simply
because
I‘m a girl. Ingt gt fact, I would be insulted by an
organization/employer that did.gt gtgt gt In a
civilian
context - which is, of course, where I work - what thisgt
meansgt gt is that I feel myself well able to compete with
anyone in
my field,gt gt regardless of age, gender, etc., under any
circumstances.gt gtgt gt In a military context,
however, it
would mean I would neither seek - norgt gt succeed in -
combat-type
roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling,gt basically!,gt
gt
UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is
somethinggt
neithergt gt I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should
either
expect or tolerate.gt gtgt gt Hope this is all clear
now. I
fear I didn‘t explain my position on thisgt gt recurring
isue at all
well last time, for which I apologize.gt gtgt
gtgt
gt ----Original Message Follows----gt gt From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike
Olearygt gt Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.cagt gt
To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt
gt Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer
relationshipgt gt Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17
-0500gt
gtgt gt Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my
databasegt gtgt gt Mikegt gt http://regimentalrogue.tripod.comgt gt
_______________________________________________________gt
gtgt
gt The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officergt gtgt
gt No
one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned Officer,
agt
gt leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize
that I am
agt gt member of a time-honored corps, which is known as
"The
Backbone of thegt gt Army."gt gtgt gt I am
proud of
the Corps of the Non-commissioned Officers and will at allgt
gt
times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the
Militarygt gt Service and my country regardless of the
situation in
which I find myself.gt Igt gt will not use my grade or
position to attain pleasure, profit, or personalgt gt
safety.gt gtgt gt Competence is my watch-word. My
two basic
responsibilities will always begt gt uppermost in my mind -
accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of mygt gt
soldiers. I
will strive to remain tactically and technically proficient.
Igt gt
am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will fulfill
mygt
gt responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are
entitled
togt gt outstanding leadership I will provide that
leadership. I
know my soldiersgt gt and I will always place their needs
above my
own. I will communicategt gt consistently with my soldiers
and never
leave them uninformed. I will begt gt fair and impartial
when
recommending both rewards and punishment.gt gtgt gt
Officers
of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their
dutiesgt
theygt gt will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn
their
respect and confidencegt gt as well as that of my
soldiers. I
will be loyal to those with whom Igt servegt gt
seniors,
peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative bygt
takinggt gt appropriate action in the absence of orders. I
will not
compromise mygt gt integrity, nor my moral courage. I will
not
forget, nor will I allow mygt gt comrades to forget that we
are
professionals, Non-commissioned Officers,gt gt
leaders!gt
gtgt gt The United States Armygt gt
Non-commissioned Officers Academygt gt Fort Knox,
Kentuckygt
gtgt gtgt gt ----- Original Message -----gt
gt
From: The MacFarlanes‘ ltdesrtrat@amug.orggtgt gt To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt
gt Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PMgt gt Subject: Re:
Sr NCO
/ Officer relationshipgt gtgt gtgt gt
gt A
long time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American friends,
agt
gt Snrgt gt gt NCOs Creed, which spoke of all
that. I have
also had a piece of papergt gt thatgt gt gt
compared
Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also one ofgt
gt
those,gt gt gt who had, but cannot
produce...gt
gt gt Ubiquegt gt gt Macgt
gtgt
gtgt gt
--------------------------------------------------------gt
gt
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a
messagegt gt
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca
from the
account you wish togt gt remove, with the line "unsubscribe
army-list" in thegt gt message body.gt gtgt
gt

_________________________________________________________________________
gt
gt Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.gt
gtgt gt
--------------------------------------------------------gt
gt
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a
messagegt gt
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca
from the
account you wish togt gt remove, with the line "unsubscribe
army-list" in thegt gt message body.gt gtgt
gt
--------------------------------------------------------gt
NOTE:
To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt to
majordomo@CdnArmy.ca
from the
account you wish togt remove, with the line "unsubscribe
army-list" in
thegt message body.gt
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
 

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Posted by "Ian Edwards" <iedwards@home.com> on Thu, 29 Mar 2001 22:40:37 -0700
John, your suggestion of what a MND should better spend time at and signing
commissioning scrolls are mutually exclusive, as surely you must realize.
Signing any of the other documents you suggest would be the culmination of a
long process, presumably worthy but requring a great deal of input,
consideration, reflection, analysis, search for funding, prioritizing, etc.
That culmination is a miniscule amount of time compared to the prep work
that just the MND would have to do first.
I received my scroll in 1972. It was machine written. In 1974 I had occasion
to meet with Bruce Beatty, who was then on the staff of the Governor
General. Bruce had retired from the Reg Force about 1972 and received a
commission as an officer. He joined the Cadet Services of Canada. All
officers‘ commissioning scrolls of any recent era post Integration are
exactly the same, there is no destinction in the scrolls nor in the
commission between CIC, Reg Force, PRes, etc. Bruce told me that when he
knew his own scroll was making it‘s way thru the system it still went to
the GGs office for the machine stamp he pulled it from the pile and took it
to the GG to have him sign it personally. Bruce retired from the Reg Force
as a WO in 1972 and from 1950 to 1972 he worked for the Directorate of
Ceremonial and was the man who designed ALL, every last one, of the Canadian
variant medals, badges, insignia, etc. for DND. There was no one in Canada
at that time that was more of an authority on the matter of correctness in
terms of heraldic design and its symbolism. Not even the "infamous" Col NA
Buckingham, long time DCeremonial. I take his word for the process in effect
that that time.Only as WO, well that goes to show the current ‘rank creep‘
but not the point of this thread, I hope.
Eight years later, when I transferred from the CIL to the PRes and went thru
the process of boarding, vetting, etc. again I subsequently asked if I was
to receive a second commissioning scroll. I was told that, no, I received
one once and that was all that was ever needed. "Ian, go read the words
again" sort of. Oh, I suppose that someone or two may have received more
than one scroll in their lifetime in Canada, but that would be a
bureaucratic error or misinterpretation.
The scroll signature is very well done by machine I should add, not the type
you find on government cheques, etc of that ilk. I would suggest that the
recipient of scrolls from the 1970s onward doublecheck, but perhaps saner
heads have prevailed and in later years they are all personaly signed, I
hope so.
John, if you feel that the scrolls are relatively unimportant, perhaps it is
because you never received one granted, for sure, because you never wanted
a commission. If they do not have any significant symbolic value then
pehaps what you are alluding to is that the scrolls should be run off on a
piece of cheap bond letter size paper, Times Roman 12 point or similar
generic style, or not bothered with at all. Perhaps just send the new
officer an e-mail and let it go at that it will appear on his/her unit‘s RO
in due course, likely has already. My whole point was that a real signature
was a minimal time requirement relative to the symbolic value in the mind of
the recipient witness that virtually no officer ever throws out his/her
scroll at least while still in the CF, even though it is never required to
be produced as evidence of the receipient holding a comission - somehow just
doesn‘t photocopy well, etc.. Let‘s go back to numbered battalions while we
are at it, damn the "need" for symbolism.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Gow
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: Commission,
> Sorry Ian, but I‘d sooner the ministers of the government did not have to
> personally ink their signatures on commissions...really what a waste of
> time..
>
> Let them instead ink their signatures to any number of things...such as
> orders that would bring better harmony to the Forces better treatment and
> reward to the men, protection and coverage to their families, an
improvement
> to the induction process...well, the list is long, but you get the
> point...their autograph on a scroll is pretty small potato‘s in the
overall
> meal..
>
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Edwards"
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 11:18 PM
> Subject: Re: Commission,
>
>
> > I‘m willing to give odds that it was a machine that signed on behalf of
> > Beatty/Sauve. That‘s the way they have been done I know of a few
> > exceptions for the last 35 years at least. That‘s a pity, for something
> so
> > important. And for the 10 minutes per day that it would take the "higher
> > paid help" wouldn‘t get writers‘ cramp.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Beth MacFarlane
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:57 PM
> > Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
> > Officer relationship
> >
> >
> > > Hey Mike!
> > > Guess who signed my scroll? Perrin Beatty and Her Excellency Jeanne
> > Sauve. It
> > > seems so long ago and I was quite proud when I received it. 1986. A
> > lifetime
> > > ago. :.
> > > Beth
> > >
> > > Mike Oleary wrote:
> > >
> > > > A few applicable notes on Commissions:
> > > >
> > > > "To possess authority over one‘s fellow man is no mean thing. The
> > Queen‘s
> > > > commission can make an officer but it cannot make a Gentleman." -
1RCR
> > Guide
> > > > for Young Officers, March 1972
> > > >
> > > > "His Majesty the King has done me the honour of conferring upon me a
> > > > Commission as an Officer. This is the greatest honour that can be
> > conferred
> > > > upon any man. It places me in a position of authority and
> responsibility
> > in
> > > > the service of my King and Country in the most ancient and
honourable
> > > > profession in the world." - "An Officer‘s Code" from the Alberta
> > Military
> > > > Institute Journal, 1925, reprinted in Gunner Bulletin No 17,
Summer,
> > 1990
> > > >
> > > > "When you join your organization you will find there a willing body
of
> > men
> > > > who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that will command
> their
> > > > respect, their loyalty, and their obedience.... Commissions will not
> > make
> > > > you leaders they will merely make you officers. They will place you
> in
> > a
> > > > position where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
> > > > attributes." - Maj Christian Bach, address "Leadership." 1918
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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Posted by "John Gow" <jgow@home.com> on Fri, 30 Mar 2001 01:17:56 -0500
Wellll...
As usual, I beg to differ, knowing this will raw fire from all quarters..
Ian, you are right. I have never held, nor likely will I eve hold a Queen‘s
Commission. I theoretically held a "warrant" much good did it do me in
terms of a piece of paper a reference a recommendation, seems the
commissioned types except Mike and Don don‘t have much truck with
rankers....But that, again, is the System...paper costs money, and money
doesn‘t got to the men.
Okay, so lets go to who gets what scrap of paper. The 2Lt that stays six
months? Versus the WO that is in 20 years and gets, given good behaviour,
the CD?
My father was a war veteran, as you know...subsequently a federal government
employee. Got a 35 year plaque signed by Joe Clark as PM, congratulating
his service see me on "Antiques Roadshow in 20 years...but, signed of
course in replica....not an original signature...for a veteran? Live shells
shot in hate? Son of a survivor of Vimy, Passchendale, Ypres etc?
Back to modern day...
So to quote you, yes..."perhaps I never received one..." perhaps...just
maybe, as a WO and MWO over a decade...just maybe I qualified?...for a
measly Warrant? Would have accepted a facsimile of signature...am just not
quite "there" with your insistance that every six month wonder in the Cadet
Corps, the PRes etc should attract an original signature....
Back to my original point..doesn‘t the Minister have better things to do.
given how this Board beats up on him so well? Or is your point that
Elizabeth is a lazy old bitch and the Crown should spend her days signing
off on subalterns?
Dumb Issue, if you ask me...which of course you did not.
The rest of the NCM types should blast you...
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Edwards"
To:
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 12:40 AM
Subject: Re: Commission,
> John, your suggestion of what a MND should better spend time at and
signing
> commissioning scrolls are mutually exclusive, as surely you must realize.
> Signing any of the other documents you suggest would be the culmination of
a
> long process, presumably worthy but requring a great deal of input,
> consideration, reflection, analysis, search for funding, prioritizing,
etc.
> That culmination is a miniscule amount of time compared to the prep work
> that just the MND would have to do first.
>
> I received my scroll in 1972. It was machine written. In 1974 I had
occasion
> to meet with Bruce Beatty, who was then on the staff of the Governor
> General. Bruce had retired from the Reg Force about 1972 and received a
> commission as an officer. He joined the Cadet Services of Canada. All
> officers‘ commissioning scrolls of any recent era post Integration are
> exactly the same, there is no destinction in the scrolls nor in the
> commission between CIC, Reg Force, PRes, etc. Bruce told me that when he
> knew his own scroll was making it‘s way thru the system it still went to
> the GGs office for the machine stamp he pulled it from the pile and took
it
> to the GG to have him sign it personally. Bruce retired from the Reg Force
> as a WO in 1972 and from 1950 to 1972 he worked for the Directorate of
> Ceremonial and was the man who designed ALL, every last one, of the
Canadian
> variant medals, badges, insignia, etc. for DND. There was no one in Canada
> at that time that was more of an authority on the matter of correctness in
> terms of heraldic design and its symbolism. Not even the "infamous" Col NA
> Buckingham, long time DCeremonial. I take his word for the process in
effect
> that that time.Only as WO, well that goes to show the current ‘rank
creep‘
> but not the point of this thread, I hope.
>
> Eight years later, when I transferred from the CIL to the PRes and went
thru
> the process of boarding, vetting, etc. again I subsequently asked if I was
> to receive a second commissioning scroll. I was told that, no, I received
> one once and that was all that was ever needed. "Ian, go read the words
> again" sort of. Oh, I suppose that someone or two may have received more
> than one scroll in their lifetime in Canada, but that would be a
> bureaucratic error or misinterpretation.
>
> The scroll signature is very well done by machine I should add, not the
type
> you find on government cheques, etc of that ilk. I would suggest that the
> recipient of scrolls from the 1970s onward doublecheck, but perhaps saner
> heads have prevailed and in later years they are all personaly signed, I
> hope so.
>
> John, if you feel that the scrolls are relatively unimportant, perhaps it
is
> because you never received one granted, for sure, because you never
wanted
> a commission. If they do not have any significant symbolic value then
> pehaps what you are alluding to is that the scrolls should be run off on a
> piece of cheap bond letter size paper, Times Roman 12 point or similar
> generic style, or not bothered with at all. Perhaps just send the new
> officer an e-mail and let it go at that it will appear on his/her unit‘s
RO
> in due course, likely has already. My whole point was that a real
signature
> was a minimal time requirement relative to the symbolic value in the mind
of
> the recipient witness that virtually no officer ever throws out his/her
> scroll at least while still in the CF, even though it is never required to
> be produced as evidence of the receipient holding a comission - somehow
just
> doesn‘t photocopy well, etc.. Let‘s go back to numbered battalions while
we
> are at it, damn the "need" for symbolism.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Gow
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 9:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Commission,
>
>
> > Sorry Ian, but I‘d sooner the ministers of the government did not have
to
> > personally ink their signatures on commissions...really what a waste of
> > time..
> >
> > Let them instead ink their signatures to any number of things...such as
> > orders that would bring better harmony to the Forces better treatment
and
> > reward to the men, protection and coverage to their families, an
> improvement
> > to the induction process...well, the list is long, but you get the
> > point...their autograph on a scroll is pretty small potato‘s in the
> overall
> > meal..
> >
> > John
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ian Edwards"
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 11:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: Commission,
> >
> >
> > > I‘m willing to give odds that it was a machine that signed on behalf
of
> > > Beatty/Sauve. That‘s the way they have been done I know of a few
> > > exceptions for the last 35 years at least. That‘s a pity, for
something
> > so
> > > important. And for the 10 minutes per day that it would take the
"higher
> > > paid help" wouldn‘t get writers‘ cramp.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Beth MacFarlane
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:57 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
> > > Officer relationship
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hey Mike!
> > > > Guess who signed my scroll? Perrin Beatty and Her Excellency Jeanne
> > > Sauve. It
> > > > seems so long ago and I was quite proud when I received it. 1986.
A
> > > lifetime
> > > > ago. :.
> > > > Beth
> > > >
> > > > Mike Oleary wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > A few applicable notes on Commissions:
> > > > >
> > > > > "To possess authority over one‘s fellow man is no mean thing. The
> > > Queen‘s
> > > > > commission can make an officer but it cannot make a Gentleman." -
> 1RCR
> > > Guide
> > > > > for Young Officers, March 1972
> > > > >
> > > > > "His Majesty the King has done me the honour of conferring upon me
a
> > > > > Commission as an Officer. This is the greatest honour that can be
> > > conferred
> > > > > upon any man. It places me in a position of authority and
> > responsibility
> > > in
> > > > > the service of my King and Country in the most ancient and
> honourable
> > > > > profession in the world." - "An Officer‘s Code" from the Alberta
> > > Military
> > > > > Institute Journal, 1925, reprinted in Gunner Bulletin No 17,
> Summer,
> > > 1990
> > > > >
> > > > > "When you join your organization you will find there a willing
body
> of
> > > men
> > > > > who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that will command
> > their
> > > > > respect, their loyalty, and their obedience.... Commissions will
not
> > > make
> > > > > you leaders they will merely make you officers. They will place
you
> > in
> > > a
> > > > > position where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
> > > > > attributes." - Maj Christian Bach, address "Leadership." 1918
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > > message body.
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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Posted by "John Gow" <jgow@home.com> on Fri, 30 Mar 2001 01:57:38 -0500
I really cannot believe we could possibly be having this conversation.
Is this really how officers think of other ranks?
Isn‘t this just a little too "puffy"?
Where did "the men" lose it, in importance in the overall scheme of things?
Please, SOMEBODY, answer this conundrum...
Else, in my opinion, versus that expressed, we are unirrevocably down the
tubes...but what the hey? look at how little tax we pay?
Godddammit to **** !
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Edwards"
To:
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 12:40 AM
Subject: Re: Commission,
> John, your suggestion of what a MND should better spend time at and
signing
> commissioning scrolls are mutually exclusive, as surely you must realize.
> Signing any of the other documents you suggest would be the culmination of
a
> long process, presumably worthy but requring a great deal of input,
> consideration, reflection, analysis, search for funding, prioritizing,
etc.
> That culmination is a miniscule amount of time compared to the prep work
> that just the MND would have to do first.
>
> I received my scroll in 1972. It was machine written. In 1974 I had
occasion
> to meet with Bruce Beatty, who was then on the staff of the Governor
> General. Bruce had retired from the Reg Force about 1972 and received a
> commission as an officer. He joined the Cadet Services of Canada. All
> officers‘ commissioning scrolls of any recent era post Integration are
> exactly the same, there is no destinction in the scrolls nor in the
> commission between CIC, Reg Force, PRes, etc. Bruce told me that when he
> knew his own scroll was making it‘s way thru the system it still went to
> the GGs office for the machine stamp he pulled it from the pile and took
it
> to the GG to have him sign it personally. Bruce retired from the Reg Force
> as a WO in 1972 and from 1950 to 1972 he worked for the Directorate of
> Ceremonial and was the man who designed ALL, every last one, of the
Canadian
> variant medals, badges, insignia, etc. for DND. There was no one in Canada
> at that time that was more of an authority on the matter of correctness in
> terms of heraldic design and its symbolism. Not even the "infamous" Col NA
> Buckingham, long time DCeremonial. I take his word for the process in
effect
> that that time.Only as WO, well that goes to show the current ‘rank
creep‘
> but not the point of this thread, I hope.
>
> Eight years later, when I transferred from the CIL to the PRes and went
thru
> the process of boarding, vetting, etc. again I subsequently asked if I was
> to receive a second commissioning scroll. I was told that, no, I received
> one once and that was all that was ever needed. "Ian, go read the words
> again" sort of. Oh, I suppose that someone or two may have received more
> than one scroll in their lifetime in Canada, but that would be a
> bureaucratic error or misinterpretation.
>
> The scroll signature is very well done by machine I should add, not the
type
> you find on government cheques, etc of that ilk. I would suggest that the
> recipient of scrolls from the 1970s onward doublecheck, but perhaps saner
> heads have prevailed and in later years they are all personaly signed, I
> hope so.
>
> John, if you feel that the scrolls are relatively unimportant, perhaps it
is
> because you never received one granted, for sure, because you never
wanted
> a commission. If they do not have any significant symbolic value then
> pehaps what you are alluding to is that the scrolls should be run off on a
> piece of cheap bond letter size paper, Times Roman 12 point or similar
> generic style, or not bothered with at all. Perhaps just send the new
> officer an e-mail and let it go at that it will appear on his/her unit‘s
RO
> in due course, likely has already. My whole point was that a real
signature
> was a minimal time requirement relative to the symbolic value in the mind
of
> the recipient witness that virtually no officer ever throws out his/her
> scroll at least while still in the CF, even though it is never required to
> be produced as evidence of the receipient holding a comission - somehow
just
> doesn‘t photocopy well, etc.. Let‘s go back to numbered battalions while
we
> are at it, damn the "need" for symbolism.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Gow
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 9:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Commission,
>
>
> > Sorry Ian, but I‘d sooner the ministers of the government did not have
to
> > personally ink their signatures on commissions...really what a waste of
> > time..
> >
> > Let them instead ink their signatures to any number of things...such as
> > orders that would bring better harmony to the Forces better treatment
and
> > reward to the men, protection and coverage to their families, an
> improvement
> > to the induction process...well, the list is long, but you get the
> > point...their autograph on a scroll is pretty small potato‘s in the
> overall
> > meal..
> >
> > John
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ian Edwards"
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 11:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: Commission,
> >
> >
> > > I‘m willing to give odds that it was a machine that signed on behalf
of
> > > Beatty/Sauve. That‘s the way they have been done I know of a few
> > > exceptions for the last 35 years at least. That‘s a pity, for
something
> > so
> > > important. And for the 10 minutes per day that it would take the
"higher
> > > paid help" wouldn‘t get writers‘ cramp.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Beth MacFarlane
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:57 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
> > > Officer relationship
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hey Mike!
> > > > Guess who signed my scroll? Perrin Beatty and Her Excellency Jeanne
> > > Sauve. It
> > > > seems so long ago and I was quite proud when I received it. 1986.
A
> > > lifetime
> > > > ago. :.
> > > > Beth
> > > >
> > > > Mike Oleary wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > A few applicable notes on Commissions:
> > > > >
> > > > > "To possess authority over one‘s fellow man is no mean thing. The
> > > Queen‘s
> > > > > commission can make an officer but it cannot make a Gentleman." -
> 1RCR
> > > Guide
> > > > > for Young Officers, March 1972
> > > > >
> > > > > "His Majesty the King has done me the honour of conferring upon me
a
> > > > > Commission as an Officer. This is the greatest honour that can be
> > > conferred
> > > > > upon any man. It places me in a position of authority and
> > responsibility
> > > in
> > > > > the service of my King and Country in the most ancient and
> honourable
> > > > > profession in the world." - "An Officer‘s Code" from the Alberta
> > > Military
> > > > > Institute Journal, 1925, reprinted in Gunner Bulletin No 17,
> Summer,
> > > 1990
> > > > >
> > > > > "When you join your organization you will find there a willing
body
> of
> > > men
> > > > > who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that will command
> > their
> > > > > respect, their loyalty, and their obedience.... Commissions will
not
> > > make
> > > > > you leaders they will merely make you officers. They will place
you
> > in
> > > a
> > > > > position where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
> > > > > attributes." - Maj Christian Bach, address "Leadership." 1918
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > > message body.
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > > message body.
> >
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>
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Posted by Beth MacFarlane <elljay@nbnet.nb.ca> on Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:53:57 -0400
I am rather proud of my warrant and I should hope that any officer would be
equally as proud of their commission scroll. I don‘t really think that my
Captain General is a "lazy bitch".
Ubique
CWO MacFarlane, R.A. , CD1 ret‘d
John Gow wrote:
> Wellll...
>
> As usual, I beg to differ, knowing this will raw fire from all quarters..
>
> Ian, you are right. I have never held, nor likely will I eve hold a Queen‘s
> Commission. I theoretically held a "warrant" much good did it do me in
> terms of a piece of paper a reference a recommendation, seems the
> commissioned types except Mike and Don don‘t have much truck with
> rankers....But that, again, is the System...paper costs money, and money
> doesn‘t got to the men.
>
> Okay, so lets go to who gets what scrap of paper. The 2Lt that stays six
> months? Versus the WO that is in 20 years and gets, given good behaviour,
> the CD?
>
> My father was a war veteran, as you know...subsequently a federal government
> employee. Got a 35 year plaque signed by Joe Clark as PM, congratulating
> his service see me on "Antiques Roadshow in 20 years...but, signed of
> course in replica....not an original signature...for a veteran? Live shells
> shot in hate? Son of a survivor of Vimy, Passchendale, Ypres etc?
>
> Back to modern day...
>
> So to quote you, yes..."perhaps I never received one..." perhaps...just
> maybe, as a WO and MWO over a decade...just maybe I qualified?...for a
> measly Warrant? Would have accepted a facsimile of signature...am just not
> quite "there" with your insistance that every six month wonder in the Cadet
> Corps, the PRes etc should attract an original signature....
>
> Back to my original point..doesn‘t the Minister have better things to do.
> given how this Board beats up on him so well? Or is your point that
> Elizabeth is a lazy old bitch and the Crown should spend her days signing
> off on subalterns?
>
> Dumb Issue, if you ask me...which of course you did not.
>
> The rest of the NCM types should blast you...
>
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Edwards"
> To:
> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 12:40 AM
> Subject: Re: Commission,
>
> > John, your suggestion of what a MND should better spend time at and
> signing
> > commissioning scrolls are mutually exclusive, as surely you must realize.
> > Signing any of the other documents you suggest would be the culmination of
> a
> > long process, presumably worthy but requring a great deal of input,
> > consideration, reflection, analysis, search for funding, prioritizing,
> etc.
> > That culmination is a miniscule amount of time compared to the prep work
> > that just the MND would have to do first.
> >
> > I received my scroll in 1972. It was machine written. In 1974 I had
> occasion
> > to meet with Bruce Beatty, who was then on the staff of the Governor
> > General. Bruce had retired from the Reg Force about 1972 and received a
> > commission as an officer. He joined the Cadet Services of Canada. All
> > officers‘ commissioning scrolls of any recent era post Integration are
> > exactly the same, there is no destinction in the scrolls nor in the
> > commission between CIC, Reg Force, PRes, etc. Bruce told me that when he
> > knew his own scroll was making it‘s way thru the system it still went to
> > the GGs office for the machine stamp he pulled it from the pile and took
> it
> > to the GG to have him sign it personally. Bruce retired from the Reg Force
> > as a WO in 1972 and from 1950 to 1972 he worked for the Directorate of
> > Ceremonial and was the man who designed ALL, every last one, of the
> Canadian
> > variant medals, badges, insignia, etc. for DND. There was no one in Canada
> > at that time that was more of an authority on the matter of correctness in
> > terms of heraldic design and its symbolism. Not even the "infamous" Col NA
> > Buckingham, long time DCeremonial. I take his word for the process in
> effect
> > that that time.Only as WO, well that goes to show the current ‘rank
> creep‘
> > but not the point of this thread, I hope.
> >
> > Eight years later, when I transferred from the CIL to the PRes and went
> thru
> > the process of boarding, vetting, etc. again I subsequently asked if I was
> > to receive a second commissioning scroll. I was told that, no, I received
> > one once and that was all that was ever needed. "Ian, go read the words
> > again" sort of. Oh, I suppose that someone or two may have received more
> > than one scroll in their lifetime in Canada, but that would be a
> > bureaucratic error or misinterpretation.
> >
> > The scroll signature is very well done by machine I should add, not the
> type
> > you find on government cheques, etc of that ilk. I would suggest that the
> > recipient of scrolls from the 1970s onward doublecheck, but perhaps saner
> > heads have prevailed and in later years they are all personaly signed, I
> > hope so.
> >
> > John, if you feel that the scrolls are relatively unimportant, perhaps it
> is
> > because you never received one granted, for sure, because you never
> wanted
> > a commission. If they do not have any significant symbolic value then
> > pehaps what you are alluding to is that the scrolls should be run off on a
> > piece of cheap bond letter size paper, Times Roman 12 point or similar
> > generic style, or not bothered with at all. Perhaps just send the new
> > officer an e-mail and let it go at that it will appear on his/her unit‘s
> RO
> > in due course, likely has already. My whole point was that a real
> signature
> > was a minimal time requirement relative to the symbolic value in the mind
> of
> > the recipient witness that virtually no officer ever throws out his/her
> > scroll at least while still in the CF, even though it is never required to
> > be produced as evidence of the receipient holding a comission - somehow
> just
> > doesn‘t photocopy well, etc.. Let‘s go back to numbered battalions while
> we
> > are at it, damn the "need" for symbolism.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: John Gow
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 9:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: Commission,
> >
> >
> > > Sorry Ian, but I‘d sooner the ministers of the government did not have
> to
> > > personally ink their signatures on commissions...really what a waste of
> > > time..
> > >
> > > Let them instead ink their signatures to any number of things...such as
> > > orders that would bring better harmony to the Forces better treatment
> and
> > > reward to the men, protection and coverage to their families, an
> > improvement
> > > to the induction process...well, the list is long, but you get the
> > > point...their autograph on a scroll is pretty small potato‘s in the
> > overall
> > > meal..
> > >
> > > John
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ian Edwards"
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 11:18 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Commission,
> > >
> > >
> > > > I‘m willing to give odds that it was a machine that signed on behalf
> of
> > > > Beatty/Sauve. That‘s the way they have been done I know of a few
> > > > exceptions for the last 35 years at least. That‘s a pity, for
> something
> > > so
> > > > important. And for the 10 minutes per day that it would take the
> "higher
> > > > paid help" wouldn‘t get writers‘ cramp.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Beth MacFarlane
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:57 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
> > > > Officer relationship
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hey Mike!
> > > > > Guess who signed my scroll? Perrin Beatty and Her Excellency Jeanne
> > > > Sauve. It
> > > > > seems so long ago and I was quite proud when I received it. 1986.
> A
> > > > lifetime
> > > > > ago. :.
> > > > > Beth
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike Oleary wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > A few applicable notes on Commissions:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "To possess authority over one‘s fellow man is no mean thing. The
> > > > Queen‘s
> > > > > > commission can make an officer but it cannot make a Gentleman." -
> > 1RCR
> > > > Guide
> > > > > > for Young Officers, March 1972
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "His Majesty the King has done me the honour of conferring upon me
> a
> > > > > > Commission as an Officer. This is the greatest honour that can be
> > > > conferred
> > > > > > upon any man. It places me in a position of authority and
> > > responsibility
> > > > in
> > > > > > the service of my King and Country in the most ancient and
> > honourable
> > > > > > profession in the world." - "An Officer‘s Code" from the Alberta
> > > > Military
> > > > > > Institute Journal, 1925, reprinted in Gunner Bulletin No 17,
> > Summer,
> > > > 1990
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "When you join your organization you will find there a willing
> body
> > of
> > > > men
> > > > > > who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that will command
> > > their
> > > > > > respect, their loyalty, and their obedience.... Commissions will
> not
> > > > make
> > > > > > you leaders they will merely make you officers. They will place
> you
> > > in
> > > > a
> > > > > > position where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
> > > > > > attributes." - Maj Christian Bach, address "Leadership." 1918
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > > > message body.
> > > > >
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> > > >
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Posted by Greg Hawes <hawes@SEDSystems.ca> on Fri, 30 Mar 2001 08:58:11 -0600 (CST)
Hi,
Just noticed your signoff, CWO - did you not receive a
CWO scroll once promoted to that lofty rank I only ask
because I was honoured enough to present one to a
relatively new CWO only two weeks past.
greg
On Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:53:57 -0400 Beth MacFarlane
wrote:
> I am rather proud of my warrant and I should hope that any officer would be
> equally as proud of their commission scroll. I don‘t really think that my
> Captain General is a "lazy bitch".
> Ubique
> CWO MacFarlane, R.A. , CD1 ret‘d
>
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Posted by Beth MacFarlane <elljay@nbnet.nb.ca> on Fri, 30 Mar 2001 18:35:06 -0400
Hi Greg!
The warrant of which I spoke, is, in fact, the scroll. If you presented one, you
must be a CO. What unit?
Ubique
Bob
Greg Hawes wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Just noticed your signoff, CWO - did you not receive a
> CWO scroll once promoted to that lofty rank I only ask
> because I was honoured enough to present one to a
> relatively new CWO only two weeks past.
>
> greg
>
> On Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:53:57 -0400 Beth MacFarlane
> wrote:
>
> > I am rather proud of my warrant and I should hope that any officer would be
> > equally as proud of their commission scroll. I don‘t really think that my
> > Captain General is a "lazy bitch".
> > Ubique
> > CWO MacFarlane, R.A. , CD1 ret‘d
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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