Company Guidons

[MAJOR_Baker]

Are Companies in the CFs authorized a Guideon? I have seen Regimental Colors, etc, but I can‘t remember seeing a Company Guidon. When a Commander is present how is his precence known at his HQs?

Also, can a Company have a mascot?

 

[Franko]

As far as I know, only armoured regiments are allowed Guidons(swallow tail). Everyone else uses the regimental colour(straight tail).

Any other info out there?

Regards

 

[jeff001]

Field Arty doesn‘t use flags of any sort. Our Regtimental colours are the guns and by Regiment I mean The Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery, not a Regt that is found on one base. If you get my meaning.
Just to let you know that the guns still recieve the proper compliments while on parade as do Guidons&other unit Colours.
(We take pride in the fact that our‘s are the only colours that kill. Not to sound as serious as it comes across.)


HONI SOIT QUI MAL Y PENSE

 

[combat_medic]

I‘ve never seen or heard of a CF unit with a mascot, although it may exist. However, I did do an honour guard at an officers‘ ball, and the Marine Corps silent drill team brought along their big-arse bulldog in a miniature Marine uniform. I thought it was funny as he||!

 

[HERC]

When I was with 4CMBG in the late eighties we flew a pennant from the HQ building (K1) whenever the Brigade Commander was in the building. It was the Duty NCO‘s responsibility to put it up, and take it down accodingly.

I can‘t remember for sure, but I think there was also a pennant for the Division Commander when 1CDN Div Fwd was in Lahr and started using the building as well. I‘m sure someone will speak up if I‘m incorrect.

As far as mascots I know that in Wainwright in the early eighties there were Bison (animals not APCs) near the front gates and I believe they were commonly referred to as the Camp Mascots.

 

[Franko]

Tech...your guns are your colours because you lost your guns in the South Africa campaign. I must conceed though that the artilery‘s 100 years of shame has been completed and your standard should be returned as your lanyards.

As for mascots, the 22R(Van Doos) had a mascot, a billy goat named Batise. There were 5 in total. I don‘t know any more about that though.

Regards

 

[Michael OLeary]

Commanders (Bde equivalents and above) will have an official pennant that is flown over their headquarters when they are in location. On the move they will have a matching vehicle pennent.

Some regiments have also formalized a series of pennent for field officers (LCols & Majs) denoting their unit and appointment. These are often miniature versions of the regimental pennant (flag, not the Colour) and will be employed most often as vehicle pennants.

Mascots - the single official mascot in the Canadian Army that I am aware of is Batiste, the regimental goat of the Vandoos (The Royal 22nd Regiment).
http://www.r22er.com/fr/mascotte/la_mascottefr.html

Lanyards - the wearing of lanyards as a ‘dishonour‘ is little more than an urban myth. I have yet to see anyone substantiate it with an original source. For most regiments they are simply fancy evolutions of whistle cords.

 

[Franko]

Look up the history of the guns in Canada. It‘s all there. I don‘t have any references here, obviously. As for the wearing of lanyards by the RCR it‘s a point of soreness. They were awarded them for saving the guns. Same for the arty guys hauling, by hand, the Liellefontein gun in front of the RCD. Their 100 years of shame is now over. Time to give them back their colours and lanyards, so they can be paraded with the troops as it should be, with pride again.

Regards

 

[Michael OLeary]

I can assure you there‘s no such stigma over the lanyard that NCOs and officers of the RCR wore (up to the adoption of the CADPAT uniform). It was just a whistle cord.

It would seem there would have had to be a lot of "disgraced" units given the prevalence of whistle cords for our many regiments.
World War Two Lanyards of the Canadian Army


Mike

 

[muskrat89]

Franko - I had always heard that too. I heard the same thing about the "tarnished" cap badges that IGs wear. I have read several "histories of the Guns, regimental histories, etc., and was never able to substantiate it. The Master Gunners, IGs, etc., that I talked to also refuted it. This included my good friend/Master Gunner, former SMIG Don Hawkes. (Some of the gunners may remember him)

Actually, my old Regiment 3 RCA has colours, which we paraded during Freedom of the City in Woodstock and Saint John, in 1993

3rd Field Regiment

 

[muskrat89]

From the Standing Orders:

2. When, in 1893, Queen Victoria conferred the title â Å“Royalâ ? on the artillery in Canada, the
honour included the right to engrave on artillery equipment the Imperial Cypher VRI surmounted
by the Imperial Crown. The honour is perpetuated today by inscribing the Royal Cypher of the
reigning monarch on each artillery piece (see figure 1 below).

and

2. The custom of the guns being the colours of the artillery has its origin in the British
practice of designating the largest piece in an artillery train as the â Å“flag gunâ ?. This gun was
accorded the honour of carrying the equivalent of today's Queen's Colour. Use of the flag gun
has been recorded as early as 1722. Later, the guns themselves came to be regarded as the
colours of the artillery as gunners in battle rallied to their guns in the same fashion as regiments
of cavalry and infantry rallied to their colours.

Maybe not a definitive nullification, I know.. but doesn‘t seem to be hiding any dark moment either.

Regarding S Africa, also from the Standing Orders:

5. D Battery joined Lord Roberts' main army in operations on the east Transvaal. It was at Leliefontein
that a historic and successful rear-guard action was fought by a handful of Royal Canadian Dragoons and the left
section of D Battery (the Gunners under the command of Lieutenant (later Major-General) E.W.B. Morrison of
the 2nd Ottawa Field Battery). They defended against an attack by some 200 Boers who had charged to within 70
yards of their position. Three of the Dragoons were awarded the Victoria Cross for this action. Lieutenant Morrison
was awarded the DSO. The gun involved now rests in the Canadian War Museum. The following is an excerpt
from the â Å“Supplementary Report, Organization, Equipment, Dispatch and Services of the Canadian Contingents
during the War in South Africa 1899-1900" from OC D Battery, RCFA to CC Brigade Division RCFA, dated 9
March 1901:
â Å“It was soon evident that the Boers had heavily reinforced since yesterday. Col Lessard with The Royal Regiment
Canadian Dragoons and two Royal Canadian Guns, the latter under Lt Morrison, covered the rear, and I have no
praise too high for the devoted gallantry they all showed in keeping the enemy off the convoy and infantry.â ?
10-6
â Å“In a telegram congratulating Gen Smith-Dorrien on the success of his operations, Lord Roberts said: 'Col Lessard
with his Canadians had a difficult task in guarding the rear of your return march and deserves great credit as
do all who were with him.'â ?
â Å“Gen Smith-Dorrien subsequently recommended Lt Morrison for 'some special mark of Her Majesty's favour for
the skill and coolness with which he worked and finally saved his guns'. He was duly awarded the Distinguished
Service Order.â ?
â Å“During the two day's fighting the section expended 240 rounds ammunition.â ?
6. In the Regular Force the service and traditions of C, D, and E Batteries are perpetuated by the RCHA
batteries with the same designation. Because of the size of the contribution of the 7th Battery at St Catherines,
its logical successor, 10th Battery, 56th Field Regiment RCA, perpetuates the South African service of C Battery in
the Reserve Force. For the contribution of a battery commander, a gun section and their distinguished conduct
at Leliefontein, 2nd Field Battery of 30th Field Regiment RCA perpetuates in the reserve force the South African
service of D Battery.
7. The most rewarding aspect of the Royal Canadian Artillery's first overseas service was the increased
recognition which now came from the Canadian and Imperial governments not only in the form of increased
appropriations but also an awareness of the excellence achieved by the Regiment.
1010.

Also, don‘t forget we have earned the Right of the Line, hardly befitting a shamed unit, I would think...

 

[Franko]

OK...some things have been clarified. Thanks for the info, I stand corrected.

The question still lingers...100 years of shame.

Where did this start, how did it happen? Was it a remenant of a loss while we were part of the British Empire? I don‘t think that a thing of that magnatude could be made up and continue to this day without it being sorted out at a higher level.

BTW...I knew about the engravings.

Great write up on the battle of Leillefontein, although there is a lot missing...Sgt Holland‘s references...The guns were in danger twice because of the gun officers lack of forethought during the battle etc...

I now understand a bit more but 100 years of shame?

Enlighten me please. If this isn‘t so, lets try to stop it!

Regards

 

[jeff001]

D-Bty parading the guns for Leillefontein, is to commerate the battle, it is not to allow the colours to fall in, sorry if any armoured think so,with that what ever urban legend that has come from it is wrong. As for the 100 years of shame, I would like to see the dispatches on that. If any unit were awarded the lanyards "for saving the guns", what was the enemy doing within 70 yards of the Gun Position,enemy that far in their advance and,be able to attack a gun line must mean one thing. The front lines failed. Who fights on the front lines?

 

[elscotto937]

Franko,
Here is the info...With unification all regimental accotriments were banned. The Artillery never fought to have the lanyard returned, the RCR simply restarted wearing thiers.
There is no 100 years of shame attributed to the Canadian Artillery, at Leliefontein the guns were held in highest regard, and as you know they are paraded with the Dragoons at Leliefontein as a mark of honour.

About the laynard, I had an indepth discussion with an RCR WO last month. He mentioned the laynard, and I told him that no such taking over of the guns ever took place in South Africa. And he gave be a plausable explination, although I have not yet researched it. We have all heard it on both sides, the laynard being given to the RCR. As he told me the the laynard was granted to the RCR, but the guns that it came from were those of the Royal Artillery, not any Canadian artillery. Which would explain why none of the Canadian gunners have heard of it, and it took place in SA so Dragoons naturally think that it was about them. Later the RCR tied whistles on the laynard, and hence it became a whistle cord. It was about this time that the RCR were given permission to where the VRI on thier cap badge.
I will try and confirm....and get back

 

[Franko]

Tech and Scott937...well that‘s bringing in a bit of perspective and clarity. Thanks for the info.

As for the lanyard being given by the Brits...be some interesting to see why they got it.

BTW...I‘m not trying to stir up the $hit pot here. Just trying to get an honest opinion. I‘ve heard SO many stories about this subject(most times it‘s taboo with the guys from the guns) I just want clarity.

As well, this MUST be a sore point with those of the guns. We of the tanks are obviously not informed well enough on this topic, due to(unfortunatly) a lack of interest. I am going to do something that I don‘t normally do. I‘m going to invite someone to this forum who is pretty much an expert on the period. Perhaps he can shed more light on this point of contention.

To quote Mulder"the truth is out there"

Regards

 

[Bzzliteyr]

http://www.atra.mod.uk/Atra/ITG/ATRP/structure/royal_artillery/#Lanyard

That is info that came from this thread in can.community.military

http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=XSEMb.6691%24881.943656%40news20.bellglobal.com

"View complete thread" for another discussion on this...


Bzzliteyr

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Company standards are used by the Guards units in England; each company has its own standard. This practice does not extend to Infantry Regiments, whose official stand of Colours includes a Regimental Colour and a Queen‘s Colour for each battalion.

The Canadian Grenadier Guards, Governor General‘s Horse Guards, Governor General‘s Foot Guards and now defunct Canadian Guards may, or may have, used company standards but I have no information on that. I would suppose they would be the only ones permitted.

There was a good article on these in Military Modeller magazine out of England a few years ago, showing photos of the various company standards used by the British Guards regiments.

 

[George Wallace]

A couple of things. Most units of the CF wore lanyards up to the 1980s. I have seen the RCD wearing a RCD lanyard on the right sleeve and a White (Arty) lanyard on the left sleeve of their Battle Dress in photos of their return from Europe in 1946. As a young Gunner in 64 Fd Bty, 10 Fd Reg‘t RCA in 1970, I was told of the 100 years of disgrace and the White Lanyard being worn on the opposite side from the rest of the army units. The story I was told was of the abandoning of their Guns in WW I due to the wrong ammunition being delivered to them. Of course, as a young impressionable mind, I accepted that. I can neither confirm, nor deny, the actual reasons as I am not "that old". The Urban Legend possibilities have been put to me in the past. It is a great story or stories.

Mascots. Many Canadian units have or have had mascots. A Sqn of the RCD had ‘Peter the Goat‘. The 8 CH used to have ‘Princess Louise‘ I, II, and III (I believe); a horse brought back from Italy and her folds. Several units have had dogs of different breeds.

The Canadian Guards had company colours/pennants for each of their companies covering each province and territory, as well as Ottawa and a few other notable cities if I am not mistaken.

 

[elscotto937]

Thanks BuzzLiteyear, very informative sites... So, combined with the absence of any information in my research of the subject, I guess this a completely false urban legend.

 

[Franko]

Well now. I have been informed! It‘s nothing but an urban legend. I‘ll pass it on!

Thanks Bzzz, George...

Regards