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Comparing Military Capability

Meridian

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The Civilian world (rightly or wrongly) is often drawn into somewhat superficial debates over what country's military is better than the others. Ive been in countless discussions where people have thrown around "France has an amazing Infantry" or "England's Armour is   unmatched" or "The US can beat anyone anywhere anytime" or "Canada's military always beats the US in training".

(Im not agreeing or disagreeing with the above, just giving perspective on my question).

At any rate... as most of you on here are predominantly professional soldiers, even if you are may be biased by western orientation or allegiance to your uniform, is there a method to figuring out who the best of the best is?   Can you have a "top 10 militaries of the world" like you can have a "top 10 employers"?

And in your mind, what makes a military the best? Sheer size? Ability to complete a mission and meet all of its objections? Ability to win military competitions? Political influence realized as a result of military strength/weaknesses?

Also.. would this be something more suited to the type of analysis Maclean's does on universities? Grouping different types of militaries and forces together for easier comparison?

(Ie Reserve vs. Resv., SF vs. SF, Marines vs Marines, etc)?

Is the SAS model still the bes tin the world?   And ultimately, how much does technology play into your overall opinion?  

(sidenote: I was reading Tom Clancy's "Battle Ready" with Gen. (Ret) Tony Zinni. In it, he discusses the high skill and abilities of the South Vietnamese Army   and the exceptional skills of the SV Marines... and in my biased uninformed western opinion I had never considered that they would be so skilled....)
 
I should think "ability to accomplish its assigned missions" should be the main criteria.
 
Michael Dorosh said:
I should think "ability to accomplish its assigned missions" should be the main criteria.
agreed. Otherwise, you're going to get caught up in small details. People who try to compare Armies are trying to say an apple tastes better than an orange, for the most part. Every Army has strong points and weak points. Every army has slightly different thoughts on how to train and what to train for, on who should be in that army and how they should get there (conscription vs recruiting), the semantics are endless. Even if we look at Spec OPs units, we run into the same problems. Bottom line is, can they do the job they're assigned?


And by that token I submit the Vatican's Swiss Guards! I can't recall them ever being unsuccessful in repelling an invader from the country. ;)
 
paracowboy hit it spot on. It's all said right there. It's also been said in a number of other threads on this exact topic before. There's no need to run this question again. It always turns into a major pissing match, mostly of unqualified rumour, unsubstantiated "fact" and utter tripe. We'll let it run (again), but at the first sign of it getting off kilter, it'll be locked with no further explanation.
 
I agree that capability has to be the prime criteria. By that yardstick the US is unrivaled. The ability to project military power
most anywhere in the world is unmatched. The USN is large and modern operating the largest carriers in the world. No other nation has anything like the Aegis system. The USAF has stealth bombers [no one else has any]. The USAF operates the largest fleet of tankers. The global network of bases is also unmatched - these are critical to power projection.

The US Army has a networked information capability which the other NATO armies lack. The British Army would be second in overall military capability. Both the US and UK are combat proven forces. The Chinese and Indian miitaries are trying to modernize but its hard to modernize such large standing armies. In my estimation capability has to include size of one's ground forces. Its great to have a superb highly trained army [like the Canadian Army] but if it can only deploy a battle group it cannot be compared to larger forces. Man for man among the smaller armies the Canadian and Australian are outstanding and would make a great addition to any coalition force.
 
Hopefully you won't lock this down too quickly.  I've found the mods on this are too quick to clsoe something down, it really don't matter if something has been asked before, if the demand is there people we answer it.

Doing from that question there is really only one military that fits that bill, and its the US military.  If you take out the US factor then I think it would be close between the Britsih, France and maybe the Germans. BUt the German don't deploy to hotspots like the Brits or French both.
 
I'm afraid I cannot comment on the CF as I have never worked with them but I was lucky enough to be attached to 3 RAR for 4 months on an exchange programme and I found them very similar to us Brits (apart from they call the halt on the right foot!!!!) just differnet uniforms, weapons and the slight variations in tactics but when you got them out of work and in the bar they were exactly the same!  I should image there isn't much difference, lets face it 50 years ago, we were all wearing the same uniform and firing the same weapons we couldn't have changed that much could we?
 
This a perfect question of why the question is so hard to answer.

Tomahawk is absolutely correct when he states that the US military is, on the strategic level, hands down the number one with respect to capability for force projection and sustainment.

If this is the yardstick, then the measurement is easy.

However, the "yardstick" for capability can be based on so many things: strategic level, operational level, tactical level, quality of equipment, systemic or dyadic technology advance, preponderance, political will, organization, morale and cohesion, discipline, etc, etc.  You can see that the arguments could be endless - although you can make general statements (ie: The Canadian Army is generally of higher quality in many factors then the Gabonese Forces), the nuances between Armies and even specific units within Armies makes the argument superfluous.

It's like comparative politics, you can compare two systems together and point out the strengths and weaknesses of either, but in the end both have their utility (relative to the state they represent) and neither is on an absolute scale of the "right and wrong" way to build a military.
 
radiohead said:
Hopefully you won't lock this down too quickly. I've found the mods on this are too quick to clsoe something down, it really don't matter if something has been asked before, if the demand is there people we answer it.

It's not a matter of it being locked down to quickly or demand. It just has to remain civil and pertinent. As to demand, if the same question keeps getting asked, it gets watered down. After responding with our thoughts to the same question previously , many don't reply to the current one. This has a tendancy to not show all sides to the discussion. As well, as long as it stays in the guidelines, we don't close them. It's when it goes south because of the immaturity of a few wayward souls that it gets locked. We simply ask that before you pose a question, search if it's been asked before and add to that one, instead of starting a new one and cluttering up the board. It's kindda like trying to keep all your school subjects in one binder, without tabs. Only make it confusing for new people and frustrating for the rest.
 
I also think a MAJOR factor would be strategy and tactics used/trained in each military.

Even if you have a very advance force such as any Western nation's army or Europe's militaries, a less rounded out military could defeat it if the tactics were that much better.

That's been proven countless times over and over again throughout the years all the way from the Byzantine times and up to and including WW2 with Hitler's "Blitzkreig" attack. There were very fine lines and nuances between the Allies and Hitler's forces but in the end they were a close match overall. It was training and tactics that won the day back then.

Although technology and power projection/overall firepower negate much of the tactics role, simply because to employ new weapons new doctrines need to be used, I believe tactics/command is a very VERY important factor in regards to which army would be the best...

Only problem is, you'd have to see an army in action to gauge it's effectiveness like that. Good scenario would be Iraq war #1+#2, and the war between Egypt and Israel back in..... 1976??? Something like that, where the Iranian army surrounded the Egyption 3rd army for a month and finally Egypt broke through the formation with a devastating push.

Anyway, just my thoughts and $0.02...

Joe
 
Pte (R) Joe said:
I also think a MAJOR factor would be strategy and tactics used/trained in each military.

Only problem is, you'd have to see an army in action to gauge it's effectiveness like that. Good scenario would be Iraq war #1+#2, and the war between Egypt and Iran back in..... 1976??? Something like that, where the Iranian army surrounded the Egyption 3rd army for a month and finally Egypt broke through the formation with a devastating push.

Anyway, just my thoughts and $0.02...

Joe

Egypt vs Iran in 1976????    ???

How about Egypt and Israel.  On more than one occasion.
 
As Infanteer stated; this is a complex and broad question.  One nation, such as the USA, may be considered a "Super Power" in the grand scheme of things.  China may be considered the greatest due to the numbers of personnel it has under arms.  Perhaps Canada, Australia and the UK could be considered the best on the quality of their 'Basic Soldier Skills' ingrained in their individual soldiers.  Perhaps you want to consider the Germans and Swiss for their innovations in Armour design and development.  Perhaps you consider the Germans the best for their organizational skills.  Perhaps the Israelis would be considered for their execution of Special Ops.  As stated earlier, each nation has its' strong and weak points.  It would probably be more prudent to discuss which alliances would product the best combination of these strengths and weaknesses to construct the most effective "Force".

GW
 
Egypt vs Iran in 1976?    ..........oh, we talkin' world cup soccer.....?
Sorry Joe, but penance must be paid...... :-[
 
and, not to dogpile you, but this statement
It was training and tactics that won the day back then
is inaccurate as well. It was logistics and force of numbers that won the day, ultimately.
 
Pte (R) Joe said:
That's been proven countless times over and over again throughout the years all the way from the Byzantine times and up to and including WW2 with Hitler's "Blitzkreig" attack.

There was no such thing as "blitzkrieg".  While the word did appear to exist in some German military writings before WW II, it was never an official military term, and in fact, is something of a myth.  The word was first used in seriousness by Allied journalists - the Germans used very old military principles, in fact, in Poland in 1939 and France in 1940, with new equipment.  They encirclement battle and battle of annihilation were key among these and represented nothing really new that had not been tried in 1870 or 1914.  Certainly at a lower level (ie tactically) things had changed from 1914, but I think the German soldier of 1918 would have been at home in the ranks in 1939 - it was a natural progression, ie evolution not revolution.

That the Germans did so well was chiefly because their opponents were so much worse, not because they had some magic new formula for waging war.

Suggest you read Matthew Cooper's THE GERMAN ARMY for a good discussion of the myth of "blitzkrieg".
 
To stir the pot a bit (because I'm in a bad mood this morning), I just spent six and a half looooong months deployed with the Germans and just didn't see their much vaunted organizational and planning skills.  There were some very switched on individuals, but the German Army appears to have suffered greatly since unification.  After all the tales I'd heard from ex-4 CMBG guys about the Germans' ability, I was sorely disappointed.  They had a disturbing tendency to micromanage, to engage in "national" politicking, to be slow in reacting, and ran one of the worst camps (Warehouse) I've ever lived in.

For my money (admittedly a biased opinion, but one based on service with IRF(L), SFOR, ISAF, etc.), no one can touch the English speaking professional armies.  We all work together extremely well (bringing different capabilities to the table) and are unbeatable technologically, logistically and organizationally.  The ABCA relationship gives us a huge advantage, as do the various intelligence sharing agreements.  Of course, as others have pointed out, the US is more than capable of operating alone, and many of the advantages shared by ABCA countries are derived from the "special" relationship with the Americans, but the four (five counting NZ) professional armies are unbeatable in combination.

My two cents, as usual.

TR
 
First off, I've changed the title of this thread to something a little more credible.   As well, I've moved this to the General Discussion forum, as it deals with more then just "Foreign Militaries".

Again, the spectra of viewpoints on this thread leave so much to be looked at when trying to figure out a "best" military.   A few thoughts:

We say military, but I think it is important to make the distinction between Army, Navy, and Airforce.   The elements of Air and Naval combat are so fundamentally different then that of Land Warfare that to measure capability without looking at each Element individiually will only confuse things.   I am assuming, and for the rest of this post, that we are focussing, in an attempt at Comparative Force Structures, on the Land Forces of various states.

Now, the variety of factors in determining the capability to fight and win wars on land are varied and large in number - how does one go about gaging and correlating all these factors?   Right now I am reading a facinating book by US Army War College professor Steven Biddle titled Military Power: Explaining Victory and Defeat in Modern Battle.   The depth of this book is amazing - Biddle forms a mathmatical equation with a vast range of variables and uses it to test case studies.   His in-depth case studies are the 1918 St Michael Offensive (where the defenders should have won but didn't), Operation Goodwood in 1944 (where the attackers should have won but didn't), and the 1991 Gulf War (in which attacker heavy casulties were predicited but never failed to materialize).   He finds that these case studies, along with numerous other small studies, are consistently validated by the formula he derives in his book.      

"Today, most analyses are either rigorous but narrow, or broad but unrigerous.   Mathmatical models of combat, for example, are rigorous but typically focus on material alone: how many troops or weapons do the two sides have, and how good is their equipment?   By contrast, holistic assessments consider issues such as strategy, tactcs, morale, combat motivation, or leadership as well as just material but treat these variables much less systematically.   Real progress demands rigor and breadth: a systematic treatment of both material and nonmaterial variables, backed up with a combination of empirical evidence and careful deductive reasoning.   Nelow I advance such an analysis for one key nonmaterial variable: force employment, or the doctrine and tactics by which armies use their material in the field.

I hold that a particular pattern of force employment - the modern system - has been pivotal in the twentieth century and is likely to remain so.   I argue that since at least 1900, the dominant technological fact of the modern battlefield has been increasing lethality.   Even by 1914, firepower had vecome so lethal that exposed mass movement in the open had become suicidal.   Subseqent technological change has only increased the range over which exposure can be fatal.   To perform meaningful military missions in the face of this storm of steel requires armies to reduce their exposure, and since 1918 the central means of doing so has been modern system force employment.

The modern system is a tightly interrelated complex of cover, concealment, dispersion, suppression, small-unit independent maneuver, and combined arms at the tactical level, and depth, reserves and differential concentration at the operational level of war.   Taken togther, these techniques sharply reduce vulnerablility to even twenty-first century weapons and sensors.   Where fully implemented, the modern system damps the effects of technological change and insulates its users from the full lethality of their opponents' weapons."

Steven Biddle, Military Power: Explaining Victory and Defeat in Modern Battle   pp 2-3

Biddle's model (from what I've read so far) seems very convincing.   Michael Dorosh said earlier that initial German victories in WWII were not do to any new and magical method for fighting war (they essentially used Modern System Force Employment that they mastered, with Stosstruppen tactics, in the trenches or WWI), but rather their opponents were worse (and by extention the Germans were better) at properly using the Modern System.   He is quite right.

How did the German's lose then, if they were better at winning battles?   They lost their monopoly on that ability, plain and simple.   In the Soviet Union, misjudgments on will and resistence led to the Soviets to survive long enough to get a measure of what the Germans were doing and to bring back some of their military brillence that had been smothered in the Officer Purge of the late 1930's.   By at least 1943 and for sure by 1944 the Soviets possessed an unmatched capability to conduct operational level battle successfully - most of the histories I've read seem to agree on this.   Indeed, the idea of the "operational" level of war, along with corresponding principles such as "deep battle" come from Soviet theory.   Thus, the Soviets were able to beat the Germans at their own game.   This was combined with Stalin's ruthless ability at the Strategic and Grand Strategic levels.

On the Western Front, the story was a little different - most histories are also apt to point out that the Western Allies never possessed commanders who possess the operational abilities that a Zhukov or a Konev, a Manstein or a Guderian possessed (a view I agree with, there are individual examples, like Patton, but systemically, the lack of operational excellence was clear).   Victory was acheived the Allies succeeded by strategically rendering German operational excellence irrelevent.   No amount of operational slyness by Erwin Rommel in North Africa would get over the strategic fact that the British controlled Malta (thus preventing German resupply) and Gibralter and the Suez (ensuring British resupply) with the Americans and Torch evetually turning the Theatre into a two-front disaster.   Quite frankly, the Western Allies where able to "out-strategize" the Germans and, by 1944, rip into what amounted to a huge geo-political flank (never more then 25% of the German Army was deployed to the Western Front after 1941).

Anyways, moving along....

Interestingly enough, Biddle argues (and I agree) that for now, RMA theory is bunk - technological advances still fight within the same paradigm of Modern System Force Employment that has been dominant since 1918 and thus cannot be "Revolutionary".   He argues that, in effortto achieve a "Revolution" in the way that modern forces fight, a technology would have to eliminate the ability of armies to use terrain at all levels of war for cover and concealment (thus turning it into something akin to Naval or Air battle).   Until then, no amount of firepower, mobility, or information technology can completely decimate an opponent (an arguement Biddle backs with numerous documented examples).

As well, Biddle constricts his own level of analysis to the operational level of war (and thus, by extention, the tactical).   It is something that we would do well to heed on this thread as well.   An example of where different spectrums of analyisis with regards to "level of conflict" yield differences in results of "good or bad" can be found by looking at the Germans on the Eastern Front in 1941:

Tactical Level:   The German tactical art was unsurpassed - their combined arms intergration was superb, and their leadership was relatively intact and experienced by short and dramatic victories in the West.

Operational Level:   Again, the Germans where at the height of capability at this level - their well trained and well led formations where capable of fluid and fast war against a lumbering Soviet machine, ensaring them in Kessels for Battles of Annihilation which brought operational victories on a scale unheard of in the history of war.

Strategic Level: The Germans where strategically mishandled by spreading their effort along three seperate axes.   By spreading their efforts out on three strategic fronts in the Soviet Union, they failed to drive on a "center of gravity" and showed a gross unappreciation for the strategic depth of manpower and resources that the Soviet Union possessed.   As well, ideologically, the German attitude to their conquered areas pissed away any strategic advantage of support in Russia - they treated the people no better then Stalin and thus found little in terms of allies in the vast Steppe of Russia.

Grand Strategic Level: The Germans showed their usual bumbling here, letting an ideological twit drive them into a two-front war.   They were forced to divide resources, manpower, and energy in an effort to fight off the three remaining superpowers of the world.


You could take this "snapshot" of anaylisis to other conflicts as well - the US in Vietnam would be just as disparate.   As you can see, each level has its own unique appreciation of "capability" and its own variables on what can determine capability.

Finally, when looking at "Military Force Capabilities", I think that an important distinctions must be made between:

1) "conventional" conflicts, which are mostly fought on "Physical" (manpower, equipment) and "Mental" (morale, cohesion) levels of war

2) "unconventional" conflicts which move the fight to the "Moral" level of conflict, which deals with ideas such as national will, perceptions of victory, and strength of cause.  

Biddle makes this distinction in his book, stating that his analysis is focused on high to mid intensity conflicts that focus around territory as the "center of gravity" - essentially discounting Thermonuclear War (which focuses on destruction) and irregular conflicts (in which territory is largely irrelevent).

I think this is an imporatant distinction to make, one that USMC Col Thomas Hammes, in his book The Sling and the Stone makes by pointing to a different form of fighting, a "4th Generation" model, which renders many of the variables which Biddle uses irrelevent.   Looking at a distinction between "Physical", "Mental", and "Moral" levels of conflict can help to explain why the situation in Iraq that the Americans and British face managed to change when the war went from Invasion to Occupation and the opponent changed from Republican Guardsman to Insurgent and Jihadist.   I believe that tactically, the Coalition Forces are still as proficent as ever and the Iraqis are as poor as ever (some sources tell me that Iraqis are tactically unsound and the real threat is Chechen or Afghan Jihadis, who are quite capable, coming to Iraq to fight and lead), but in a "4th Generation" conflict, tactical success isn't always important and can sometimes translate into strategic failure.

Ironically, Col Hammes states in his intro that he was able to develop alot of his thoughts while on exchange to the Canadian War College.   He felt that the Canadian War College, which was heavily oriented towards politics as opposed to pure military topics (which the US counterpart is), was a much better environment to analyse and expound upon the realm of politics, so vital in "4th Generation" warfare, that is beyond strictly military levels of analysis.   I think this is important in that, if one is to do "comparative" studies of military capabilities, political aspects must be brought into play.

Anyways, as you can see, if you want to approach the topic seriously, without relying on juvenile cheerleading, there is a vast array of variables and levels that one must look at when comparing military capability.

Cheers,
Infanteer
 
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