Complicated Joining Question HELP!

[Meridian]

ok.. need some advice... from anyone who knows anything.. The CFRC in Ottawa is garbage.. at least the people I've talked to .

I am currently a 2nd year in University.. will be a third at the start of the next ROTP cycle.

I already have completed 1 year of the ROTP program (Junior), then VR'd, with recommendation to return (cant remember but 4c?)
Reasons were primarily financial....  basically I had a lot of debt, and RMC's structure didn't match where i wanted to be. I didnt end up finishing IAP/BOTP due to a medical recourse (my back, which is fine medically now, and which the military cleared before I left).

I do have a strong interest in being in the forces, as an officer. I also want to finish my degree.

Right now I work full time (paying off stuff, plus rent, plus tuition) and go to school full time. Its a lot. But next year chances are Ill be doing the part time school thing... which m eans even longer to finish.


So my options are:

Reserves
ROTP Civ. (if I can get in)


Reserves ive been told in Ottawa do not really hire Officers outside the ranks. At all. Too much hassle or something (Yes I know the other arguments)
So I could go through as a PTE(U) and learn a bit in the Reserves.. but I already know a lot actually about the basics and about being lower than dirt from being an OCdt for a year.  AND Im worried about the training carry over anyway......  from Reserves to RegFor.........

AND Im interested in armour more than infantry, and I really only have infantry options open here.


Under CIVu- It would be tighter because you technically are not allowed to work, but I know of enough people who do work on the side/etc, so long as it does not interfere with school or military commitments (which are next-to nil during the academic year)


Last Option: wait a few years and Go DEO....  I'll be 26 if that makes any difference at all.

So... Suggestions? 

 

[Tracker]

How did you manage to complete one year of the junior programme and not finish IAP/BOTP?  I was under the impression that you could not continue with the education until you finished IAP/BOTP. 

It sounds to me that you want the best of both worlds.  The CF to pay for your education and give you a salary and be free to work on the side. 

What did CFRC Ottawa tell you?

 

[Meridian]

*sigh*.

Officer Cadets receive approximately 1000$ net per month. If I include my rent, hydro, food and consolidation loan (my credit is excellent, just in use) I blow over the 1000. I need about 1500/month.

Im not asking for the world here.


ANd IAP/BOTP, at least when I was there, was conducted after the first year of Junior. I did half of it.
We had 2 weeks of IAP credited given we did two weeks of indoc before the academic year (standard saluting, drill, uniforms, etc).

CFRC Ottawa told me that the reserves dont hire officers externally very often, that in this city most people are students anyway, and that they would be happy to put an ROTP Civ application in for me as I would be a strong candidate, but that the financial issue would still be there.



What I want to be able to do is get both my school done quicker AND my phase training done quicker.. that way Im an officer and working that much faster.

if I wait until DEO, then I wait min 3 years (part time University), plus I have to start training at that point.

 

[Pieman]

Under CIVu- It would be tighter because you technically are not allowed to work, but I know of enough people who do work on the side/etc, so long as it does not interfere with school or military commitments (which are next-to nil during the academic year)

I went to school with a lot of guys who were going to CivU and were very involved with the reserves. They also had student loans, and had lots of spending cash from the reserves pay. If you are going to CivU, the only some scholarships require that you don't work. So unless you are getting a scholarship that is paying a boat load (and most don't pay nearly as much) then why not go reserves? I wish I had.  

The ROTP Civ. sounds great, and to be honest I don't know much about it Does it have stipulations that you must keep your GPA up to a certain level? and probably no courses can be below a  certian mark etc.? If so, you are put under a lot of pressure and risk losing your funding if something happens, which it all too easily can. If you have a bad semester you could lose all your support. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[kincanucks]

It is hard to tell if you want advice or someone to hold your hand.

ROTP Undergrad or any other subsidization entry program into the CF are not designed to solve applicants' financial woes but to ease the financial burden in the pursuit of a university education.   The debt that an applicant brings to the table is theirs and theirs alone.   These programs are specifically designed to produce university-educated officers and provide a very generous subsidization, tuition, essential academic fees and mandatory books and instruments while providing a modest salary.

I suggest you carefully examine your reasons for wanting to become an officer/member in the CF. Solving your financial problems is not one.

The ROTP Civ. sounds great, and to be honest I don't know much about it Does it have stipulations that you must keep your GPA up to a certain level? and probably no courses can be below a certian mark etc.? If so, you are put under a lot of pressure and risk losing your funding if something happens, which it all too easily can. If you have a bad semester you could lose all your support. Just something to keep in mind.   In order to have your subsidization continue, you must maintain the academic level required by the study program that you are undertaking.

 

[Meridian]

Id really appreciate if you all dropped your condescending holier than thou attitudes.

One would think if i was actually out here asking the questions in advance, and getting advice Id have some serious interests in the forces.


I have not once asked the military to "solve my financial woes".  The kind of remarks you just made were insolent, rude and uncalled for. You have no idea what my situation really is, or my intent, you know what Ive told you, and all I've asked is for the best situation the forces can offer.


As Ive already mentioned I plan on joining DEO in the long run anyway, or did you form your opinion before you even read my entire posts?

It IS a generous program... I already joined and LEFT because the program I was under both did not offer the academic program I wanted and did not meet the financial obligations I had. If the forces doesnt let me go make money to pay bills, it doesnt matter how generous they are... and instead of sitting whining for a bailout, I left and worked on it.

I still want BACK in.. and so Im asking IN ADVANCE what anyone else would suggest would be the BEST way to rejoin the forces as soon as possible WITHOUT causing an administrative drain on the Forces.

Any Actual constructive help, rather than help from some @hole who thinks he's gods gift would be appreciated.


Im sorry to the rest of you, but that is twice now and even AFTER I clarified.  I've also seen some of you jump on others on the thread.....

 

[Meridian]

As far as my grades are concerned, as a 3rd year, I have some idea of the level of my grades and  my ability to keep them.

I currently work full time, go to school full time and have other activities and still manage an A- average. This I'm proud of, and I recognize that a committment to the forces is demanding - This is why I am asking for direction to the best program... not questions regarding my interest in the forces.

Remember.. just because it is a subsidization, does not mean everyone who takes it wants a handout.

 

[Tracker]

And a contemptuous "sigh" right back at you Sunshine.

I think you may have come to this forum looking for advice but you are already alienating yourself from those of who would give it to you.  Your motivation is a concern.  If I was conducting your interview I would be reluctant to recommend re-enrollment to someone who quit the program because of the academic program or financial reasons.  Didn't you do any research into this at all?

You have mentioned the options open to you in your first post, that's it, that's all, there is no more to it than that.  If you can't live on the pay while you get a subsidized education then wait until you qualify for DEO or join the reserves as Pte.

I'm still curious though about CFRC Ottawa being garbage.  If the options mentioned in your first post was their advice, then they were correct.

I'll step down from my condescending, holier than thou position as Gods gift to the CF now and give you some real advice.  If you plan on talking to your Troops in the same manner as you have treated people on this forum, you might as well paint a figure 11 on your back.

 

[Pieman]

Remember.. just because it is a subsidization, does not mean everyone who takes it wants a handout.

I was not questioning your ability to handle your grades, simply pointing out a possible danger in going that route. As much as you like to think, three years of University is not a lot. I have seen some really brilliant people fail out late in their education because of external problems. Take it from someone with over seven years of University under their belt.

You also assume that I was positioning that you were looking for hand outs, which is simply something from left field.

As for people coming across as condensending, it is because after four posts, it is still not clear what you want. Your original question and your 'clarification' were muddled. Do you want advice on each program? A description of how each program works? It sounds like you are looking for the option that will give you the most money.   In all, I suspect you could have summed up your question as:

'Which pays more: ROTP Civ. or Reserves, as a option to get myself through University?'

And really, you can probably figure that out for yourself.

 

[Meridian]

I just find it interesting that people jump on me about subsidization when I mentioned I would like to go the reserves route (which currently does NOT offer subsidization, least Ive been told).

Im asking advice from  people in the forces and perhaps people who have been in similar situations..

Ive read posts for and against going reserves and then transferring, but its not usually at the officer level.... or up to the officer level, etc...  figured some people may be more helpful on here rather than so intent on DISCOURAGING me to go ahead with it.

Im going to disregard your comments regarding how I would "talk to my troops".
To Pieman - Sorry, my comments werent directed to you.

I know which pays more.. The subsidization issue is NOT the issue. All I was trying to clarify was that my Im dedicated to my financial situation, and finishing school (which is a requirement for a commission anyway) AND getting back into the forces and completing my training.

As for my original reasons for leaving....  Apparently the two Majors and LCol I discussed with on my way out had no problems fully recommending my re-enrollment and personally encouraging me to come back, and empathizing with my situation.

As far as Financial , before enrollment, I was told I would be clearing about 200 more than when I actually got my paycheque.  5 years of that unfortunately was not acceptable to me, or my creditors.


Anyway, again, the point of my posts was for suggestions on where to go re: reserves...  I talked to a recruiter today who went against the first recruiter and told me that the local units do hire OCdts from outside the ranks....  but then I don't know much about trying to transfer Reg Force afterwards... many on here seem to have stories of almost a year?

If Reserves isnt the best option, then the only others are DEO or ROTP Civy,  but again, I was hoping for anyone who knew about ROTP civy as when I was in BOTP, I met some others on course who said they were all allowed to work extra jobs as some were in the same situation as me, as long as it did not affect their grades.  But this was 2 years ago, and quick hearsay.

I guess I was just hoping for some helpful advice/comments. Pieman, thank you for yours.

 

[CivU]

I can answer Civilian University questions you may have...

In terms of working on the side, it is permitted and not discouraged.  The only stipulations are that it must be a reasonable job that would not discredit the CF.  You couldn't work as a stripper, but you could work at a bar without any problems...The main issue is that the SEM for your region will emphasise that no matter what you do, be it a sport, extracurricular activity, club, or job...if it ultimately leads to an unacceptable decline in grades, then they will address that personally.  There is no standard marks to maintain, you just need to be able to continue through your specified program of study, but they are able to check with your registrar regarding your academic situation...

Depending on where you live, you will also get PLD, which will supplement the higher cost of living depending on your location.  In some areas this can be as much as $500-1000 or more, in other areas it can be as little as $10-20...This may or may not help you depending on geography...

Anything else?

 

[brin11]

Meridian,

When one asks for advice they don't always get the answers they were looking for.  Obviously no one on here knows your life story or the personal/financial challenges you are up against. 

I think the replies you have received so far have not been rude and condescending.  Perhaps you should stand down here regarding the comments you have made which definitely have been (ie. please re-read your posts).

I will leave this going as it seems there may still be valuable input still coming in.

Good luck with your decisions.

 

[McG]

I'm interested in armour more than infantry, and I really only have infantry options open here.

There are engineers, artillery, and CSS options in Ottawa and Hull has Armd.

 

[Blakey]

I know I shouldnt be posting here because I just dont have the answers to the questions..... :

 

[McG]

the point of my posts was for suggestions on where to go re: reserves... I talked to a recruiter today who went against the first recruiter and told me that the local units do hire OCdts from outside the ranks.... but then I don't know much about trying to transfer Reg Force afterwards... many on here seem to have stories of almost a year?

You will require a VFS (verification of former service) when you rejoin.  This will be the slowest part of the process.  However, if you are actively serving in the reserves when you apply to the regs, your file is immediately available from your unit.

 

[bossi]

Meridian,
You asked for advice, so here's some:
Finish your university under your own steam as many of us do (i.e. pay for it yourself - I worked two jobs).   This route will also keep your options open vis-a-vis a career, a Masters degree, whatever.

If you want to kill two birds with one stone, then by all means join the reserves
(i.e. it would be a part-time job, and would also work towards your apparent ultimate goal of joining the Army full-time).   And, you mentioned your age - you're not getting any younger, so the sooner you start (or re-start) your military service, the better (it's too bad you started university so late - I was 17 when I started first year at U of T).

The CF does in fact have an entry plan so that you could join the reserves as an officer, however it may turn out that the units in your neighbourhood have exercised their discretion to do elsewise (and, if you're interested in Armour, there's the Regt de Hull ... in Hull ...).

Lastly, from the perspective of several years working in Recruiting, I'd suggest you ensure your attitude when approaching the Recruiting Centre is more polite than the attitude you've displayed here.   You don't come across as somebody the Army would want as a leader, and I'd bet money you would not be accepted into my Regiment.

 

[Meridian]

Thanks for the clarifications on the Civ U stuff, and the other questions I had to those who've answered. Also the last statement about VFS was a good one I had not considered! Thnx for that.

Again, I do not need subjective opinions on attitude from others. If you don't like the fact that I don't like you criticising my perceived attitude on a message board, so be it.

Perhaps a suggestion for many: If you are responding to a question on a recruiting board, just because it may or may not have been asked before does not mean the question is any less valid, or the person should know any better.  If you require clarification to answer the question, request clarification - stating subjective presumptions about "holding ones hand" and trying to give a "reality check" is surely going to get someone's back up, and then consistently piling on later regarding "that attitude wont be accepted where I work"....  however accurately that may be, does not actually support anything constructive, especially when Im clearly frustrated with the level of information I've received from the forces.

For my own behaviour, I apologize if I have offended any, but re-reading my posts, I can only state that I am clearly frustrated with the fact that few seemed at all initially interested in actually reading my questions - the immediate answer from many on here regarding ROTP questions seem to be biased towards "these poor babies who are taking money, they should suck it up". I am speaking in general with reference to many other threads. I was initially very put off by one of the posters who apparently was not interested in reading the part where I said I was considering the reserves (which does not subsidize) which would have indicated what I intended there.

In any event, I should have taken it to private message.

Best of luck to all of you in your careers.

 

[bossi]

Again, I do not need subjective opinions on attitude from others.

Then you should think again about a career in the Army, or any organisation where you could be subjected to critical performance reviews by human beings.  Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, some of the advice you've asked for and received here maybe, just maybe ... might help you achieve what you've described as your career goal?

And, of course you already know it all, but maybe, just maybe you forgot that "there is no tone" in Internet communication (i.e. no inflection or body language)?  Thus,

... the part where [you] said [you were] considering the reserves (which does not subsidize) which would have indicated what [you] intended there ...

perhaps wasn't the masterful stroke of penmanship you imagined it was?
(i.e. while you imagined it demonstrated your willingness to serve without subsidisation, your self-professed lack of clarity and previous remarks (dare I say "attitude") caused several readers to read the exact opposite?
In fact, isn't it peculiar that you're the only one who knew what you were saying ... ?
But, of course, they're all wrong and you're right.  We should all bow down and thank you for blessing us with your presence and infinitely superior intellect.

Best of luck to you in your career attempt - we look forward to hearing which McDonald's hires you.