CONFLICT OF FAITH AND DUTY FOR ISRAELI TROOPS?

[Goober]

if you decide not to carry out the order, and follow your religious beliefs you should be prepared for the concequences like jail time, or even execution.

Of course this assumes it is in violation of an actual belief.

Well, thats what I said.

As CF members, I cannot think of any circumstance where an order would be given that would violate religious beliefs but still qualify as a lawful command. Most laws (criminal and military) are based on Christian doctrine (in Canada), and as such, reflect the same values. For instance, it is illegal to steal and it is also a violation to of Christian beliefs to steal. The big one (for our profession) is the 'Thou shall not kill' Commandment. It is widely interpreted that killing an enemy soldier in the course of one's lawful duties does not violate this.

So, yes, you are right, but the point is moot because you would never be asked to do something that violates any religious belief I know of. Perhaps the Muslims, Jews, etc on this forum could confirm this for their faith.

I don't think you can say for certain that you wouldn't be ordered to do something against your beliefs. You never know what situation might come up. (Although, it may seem far fetched, but Murphy's law..)

My whole point is people who join the military, need to put it first, and everything else second.

 

[WAFFEN_SS]

ad-hominem LOL I hope your didn't writethat because you took first year logic....LOL No, there is a difference btw name calling, and being insulted by the truth.  A moron can be discribed as either stupid or lacking good judgement. It is ppl's judgement that I call in to question, 99% have no idea of what's really going on. But regardless, everyone has an opionion and they will air it.....

Che I hope you are intelligent, and if so, I would implore you to go and watch a short movie by Noam Chomsky, (I'm sure you've heard of him), called Distored Morality. Download it from Kazaa or some other program. Then you'll see why I wrote what I did.

 

[winchable]

Regardless of your justification, use of the word moron is name-calling, it is not attacking the argument, it is attacking the person and is in conflict with forum guidelines.
Anything but the qualities I come to expect from someone pursuing a masters.
In the future attack the argument, I'm sure you'll find that a reviewing board will not enjoy use of the word "moron" when it comes time for your masters defence.

I am familiar with Mr. Chomsky's work and have read mostly everything he's produced thanks to a very good professor, but realise he's probably as much of a saint as any other partisan.

Back on topic for the thread, if you have any further issues PM me.

 

[dutchie]

My whole point is people who join the military, need to put it first, and everything else second.

I don't want to get into a religious argument with you, but this statement directly contradicts Christian doctrine (and I suspect Muslim, Jewish, and most other religions doctrine). In Christianity, one must put God first, before all other 'worldly' things, be it family (including spouses and children), friends, work, or anything else. I am surprised no one else of religious faith brought this up. I suppose Che is a little busy with Weapon.

If you were to argue that as a soldier, the spot you put your 'job' in on the priority list should be a little higher than most other people would put their job, fine, but that is not what was not what you posted.

 

[combat_medic]

Weapon,

Check your PMs. If you continue attacking and insulting forum members, you will no longer be welcome here.

 

[Goober]

My whole point is people who join the military, need to put it first, and everything else second.

I don't want to get into a religious argument with you, but this statement directly contradicts Christian doctrine (and I suspect Muslim, Jewish, and most other religions doctrine). In Christianity, one must put God first, before all other 'worldly' things, be it family (including spouses and children), friends, work, or anything else. I am surprised no one else of religious faith brought this up. I suppose Che is a little busy with Weapon.

If you were to argue that as a soldier, the spot you put your 'job' in on the priority list should be a little higher than most other people would put their job, fine, but that is not what was not what you posted.

Yes I do see what you are saying, and I know the statement I made contradicts Christian doctrine. Religions state God first, before anything else. But the military is built and depends on the rank structure. If you look at it simply, people are just given titles (ranks), they are just words. But these words, these ranks are what keep the military together, they keep order. You must obey orders from your superiors. If people didn't obey these orders, the whole thing would come crashing down. The only thing keeping it (the military, any military) is that the soldiers obey their orders.

I realise it may be far fetched that some orders may come down the line that go against ones religion, but if it did happen, if those orders did come down the line, and you disobeyed them everything the military teaches and stands for is out the window, and you should be disiplined for disobeying these orders.

 

[Goober]

One must prepare him/herself for many scenarios, including this one.

 

[dutchie]

you disobeyed them everything the military teaches and stands for is out the window, and you should be disiplined for disobeying these orders.

If you disobeyed an order because it violated your religious beliefs in a profound way I would be very surprised if you would receive punishment. As an example, if I was ordered to blow up the Church of the Nativity as it was full of enemy soldiers, that is a lawful command as it does not violate the law of armed conflict or other treaties/laws. I would not want to do this, as it is regarded as the location of the Birth of Jesus, but I have no grounds to disobey. If I did, I would rightfully swing for this. This would also not violate Christian doctrine.

If, however, I was ordered to kill without grounds (civies for example), steal/pillage, beat a person unnecessarily, or allow any of these to happen unchallenged, it would violate my faith, and I have grounds to disobey. You'll notice that all of these examples (and any other I could think of) also violate the Canadian Criminal Code, the Law of Armed Conflict, the Code of Service Discipline, etc.

Were splitting hairs here. I cannot think of an order that would violate Christan doctrine (or other religious doctrine), but still qualify as a lawful command. As pointed out earlier, this is because our laws are based on Christian doctrine/comman decency. To bring this never ending loop to a close, I challenge you to think of an instance where a command would be lawful and also violate Christan/Muslim/Jewish (or any other major religion) doctrine.

 

[WAFFEN_SS]

Che you seem like a good guy, and you are right i was making a personal attack...lol....did you like how I justified it?
But anyway, I thought that was the norm here, ppl were making personal attacks here because of my previous (superiour) name, so I figure....when in rome.... Mr Chomsky is a partisan, as we all are, but the difference between him and most is, that he can weight both arguments and assess its strengths without getting his personal views in there. It is really hard for most ppl if you think about it. But I appreciate your view, thx dood.

BTW are you still in skool, i tried PM'n you but CPL combat_medic decided to use his limited power to restrict my access. Ppl with the least amount of power always try to assert it as often as possible, but combat_medic's life is his own punishment, I could care less if he booted me off this server, my life will still continue just fine

CHEERS

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Well since you could care less, bye bye, troll.

 

[pbi]

Well since you could care less, bye bye, troll.

YAY! Good riddance ;D. Cheers

 

[Goober]

you disobeyed them everything the military teaches and stands for is out the window, and you should be disiplined for disobeying these orders.

If you disobeyed an order because it violated your religious beliefs in a profound way I would be very surprised if you would receive punishment. As an example, if I was ordered to blow up the Church of the Nativity as it was full of enemy soldiers, that is a lawful command as it does not violate the law of armed conflict or other treaties/laws. I would not want to do this, as it is regarded as the location of the Birth of Jesus, but I have no grounds to disobey. If I did, I would rightfully swing for this. This would also not violate Christian doctrine.

If, however, I was ordered to kill without grounds (civies for example), steal/pillage, beat a person unnecessarily, or allow any of these to happen unchallenged, it would violate my faith, and I have grounds to disobey. You'll notice that all of these examples (and any other I could think of) also violate the Canadian Criminal Code, the Law of Armed Conflict, the Code of Service Discipline, etc.

Were splitting hairs here. I cannot think of an order that would violate Christan doctrine (or other religious doctrine), but still qualify as a lawful command. As pointed out earlier, this is because our laws are based on Christian doctrine/comman decency. To bring this never ending loop to a close, I challenge you to think of an instance where a command would be lawful and also violate Christan/Muslim/Jewish (or any other major religion) doctrine.

It is a round-about discussion, and it isn't really doing any good to debate it further. There are examples where commands that are deemed lawful were issued, and carried out, but were definatly against Christian doctrine, but thats another topic for a previous day, and would do no good getting into that now.

 

[dutchie]

I agree - we are splitting hairs.