Constructive Criticism

[Fishbone Jones]

Before this spins away , as so many other threads a word of caution is in order.

Let's make sure, that if you don't agree, you attack the premise...........and not the person.

No one is getting slapped yet, just saying.

--Staff--

 

[UnwiseCritic]

Potential solution, recruit officers from within the ranks, minimum rank of cpl so that they understand the inner workings before they go on to be in a position of power. Have people assessed by both highers and peers annually.

Or lets say mod6 for instance, they micro managed every minute of our life. But on a leadership course should you not maybe make them take responsiblity for themselves as they will be responsible for otheres. Let them be their own best friend or worst enemy.

Establish a training value vs cost ratio aka the suggestion I gave about maybe jumping and doing a mini ex with it.

I also suggested maybe progressing forward instead of reverting back into that known comfort zone. Eg not doing company night live then 2 weeks later doing pairs dry. Or maybe not always doing a frontal.


Of course things don't play out the way I like thats life. But what I saw and experienced effected a lot of others. There is a reason retention in the 1st and 3rd is ridiculously low. They came out and asked us for the problem. We had an "emergency" company meeting due to all the vr's. But all they did was shoot guys down when they tried to give some honest feed back. And when I tried to give honest feed back to my oc in my interview he shot me down. Needless too say he was fired shortly after my leaving and then sent overseas... or so the grapevine says. And telling someone to conform too the CF sounds like the easy way out. Yes some things are the way they are and they know better. However not trying to improve and just becoming a stale place is no way to go either. And you always here the old guys say it's not like it used to be. It's becuase were putting people that can't hack it into places where they can make decisions. And the standards of the CF in some ways are going down. I did find though that the current generation of sgts of warrants is extremely switched on. This may be becuase they were brought up in a war time army. The future is bright.

I also said understandably that the co was right not do say anything in front of the guys. But the OC should have came forward and admitted it.


"You can learn from mistakes and bring change when the chance arrives or you can complain in public"
That is what I am trying to do, people here who read this hopefully will take something away. Including myself. There was nothing i could do at the rank of pte, so hopefully some officer can see the other side of the spectrum through some of these "complaints" as this is the only chance I have.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Sense of entitlement is a sore spot for me. Troops who "work" from 1000 to 1130 then 1300 to 1500 and ass cry if they are still at work at 1501.

This sucks why are we still here this is bullshit we never do any good training.
We set up good training[Urban Ops, FRIES, CQC, white water rafting PD] This is stupid this is bullshit why the fuck are we here when can I go home.

I think the truth is sometimes uncomfortable and you may have touched on some valid points (others not so much).

Sure some officers are shitty, like some troops.  I'd jump into a bear pit with anyone here for the honour of deploying with my OC or previous RSM who mentored me.
My wet behind the ears platoon commander fresh out of RMC with no military experience is all about the welfare of the troops in the platoon, promoting their welfare, putting them on courses and all around taking care of them. Probably one of the most selfless officers soldiers I've ever met.

You've had bad luck.

 

[FJAG]

:deadhorse:

Potential solution, recruit officers from within the ranks, minimum rank of cpl so that they understand the inner workings before they go on to be in a position of power. Have people assessed by both highers and peers annually.

Or lets say mod6 for instance, they micro managed every minute of our life. But on a leadership course should you not maybe make them take responsiblity for themselves as they will be responsible for otheres. Let them be their own best friend or worst enemy.

When armies were large, some armies (like the Germans in WW2) did that or promote from the ranks to fill vacancies but modern armies simply haven't the time in an officer's career to waste. Nowadays officers require a university degree which means they'll be 22 yrs old by the time they start service. In addition I would suggest that they don't need the training you suggest because they already get it in all their basic officer and leadership courses. This training includes everything which you mentioned plus much, much more.

During basic officers' training assessments are continual. After that its annual although they aren't peer assessments. I've seen peer assessments in civilian jobs. They are rarely helpful and usually say more about the writer of the peer review than the subject.

Establish a training value vs cost ratio aka the suggestion I gave about maybe jumping and doing a mini ex with it.

I also suggested maybe progressing forward instead of reverting back into that known comfort zone. Eg not doing company night live then 2 weeks later doing pairs dry. Or maybe not always doing a frontal.

Creating training plans and developing exercises is very much dependant on costs, state of training of the troops and scheduled tasks/missions for the unit. These days there is rarely the time or the money available to waste on meaningless exercises. There may, on occasion, be the perception that a certain aspect of the training is meaningless but believe me when I tell you that in any battalion there will have been much thought by many people put into developing the plan for maximum benefit to the unit as a whole.

Of course things don't play out the way I like thats life. But what I saw and experienced effected a lot of others. There is a reason retention in the 1st and 3rd is ridiculously low. They came out and asked us for the problem. We had an "emergency" company meeting due to all the vr's. But all they did was shoot guys down when they tried to give some honest feed back. And when I tried to give honest feed back to my oc in my interview he shot me down. Needless too say he was fired shortly after my leaving and then sent overseas... or so the grapevine says.

Retention is based on many things and I think at this time the fact that we're going back to a "peacetime" model with large budget cuts has a significant impact on retention. I don't want to minimize that poor morale can also be a factor but when you say that all the 'honest feedback' was shot down all I can say is I'd have to have been there to see if the feedback was "honest" or if it was just "bitchin'". During my days I listened to many subordinates with good ideas which were put to good use but I also heard some of the most useless, god-awful drivel that was ever spouted.

Believe me when I tell you that we do not fire officers and send them overseas. Fired officers go to civy street or, if they have the ability, to another job or officer classification which is not as demanding and where they might still be able to make a contribution to the forces.

And telling someone to conform too the CF sounds like the easy way out. Yes some things are the way they are and they know better. However not trying to improve and just becoming a stale place is no way to go either. And you always here the old guys say it's not like it used to be. It's becuase were putting people that can't hack it into places where they can make decisions. And the standards of the CF in some ways are going down. I did find though that the current generation of sgts of warrants is extremely switched on. This may be becuase they were brought up in a war time army. The future is bright.

I'm an old guy who joined in 1965 and retired in 2009. I've seen the old army and I can tell you without a moment's hesitation that year by year the forces and its soldiers have gotten better. The state of the army today, its equipment, its training and the standards of its soldiers is better than it's ever been. I particularly agree with you about the state of our senior NCOs. During much of my service in the "good ole days" all too many of the Senior NCOs were old and tired and marking time before retirement. The vast bulk of the current crop are outstanding troops.

Yup. We have more damn bureaucracy these days than we need but that's unfortunately what happens when government creates so many regulations and processes and checks and balances that you need a massive staff just to keep the paper turning over. Luckily in your short career you've never had to serve in Ottawa. I can add that much of the garbage that comes down out of Ottawa is probably what made some of your leaders less effective than they could have been.

 

[garb811]

Potential solution, recruit officers from within the ranks, minimum rank of cpl so that they understand the inner workings before they go on to be in a position of power.

My observation on this suggestion is it is flawed.  Although I know very, very fine officers who have taken a commissioning plan as a Cpl, I also know a few abject failures because they remain a "Cpl" in thought and deed.  Two totally different functions in the military, some can make the transition, some can't.

 

[Old Sweat]

Let me second FJAG's comments. I joined as a gunner in 1957 and finally hung up my kit in 1994 as a lieutenant colonel. Believe me, I heard all your complaints (and made some of them myself) when I was serving in the ranks 1958-1960. The regiment had served in Korea 1953-1954 and Germany 1955-1957 and then found itself in Petawawa without an operational role. Back then shiny boots and knife-edged creases on the battledress trousers were accepted as the mark of a good soldier, physical fitness was ignored, quarters inspections were common place and training was something we did in the May-July time frame. Our battery commander, who was a pre-1939 regular and a graduate of RMC with extensive operational service in the Second World War, was an incompetent fool who would not have lasted 30 seconds in one of today's regiments.

Retention virtually did not happen, at least in the junior ranks. The vast majority of the young gunners who had signed up for three years left at the end of their enlistment. There was some wastage among the junior NCOs while the sergeants and above realized they had found a home to wait for retirement which did not require much thought or effort on their part. There were exceptions, and they were an inspiration to all they met.

In an army that has transitioned to peace there will be a lot of odd things happening as the organization comes down off its high. In my opinion the world is too unstable for the CF to wait too long before another mission comes along, no matter what the government would like to see.

 

[GnyHwy]

Potential solution, recruit officers from within the ranks, minimum rank of cpl so that they understand the inner workings before they go on to be in a position of power. Have people assessed by both highers and peers annually.

We do both of these things.  To suggest that it be the normal progression is not possible.  Os, by virtue of their education have proved their ability to comprehend complex information or problems.  Is that true for all cases?  No, of course not, but many Snr NCMs will tell you that once they reach Sgt or WO and they have to dive into the extensive OP Os, that it can be pretty overwhelming (if they are actually reading it and do the analysis).

Being assessed by your peers happens indirectly in the sense that "do the troops/peers listen to you" when you're put in charge.  Being a Cpl in charge of other Cpls is difficult, and it is a tell tale sign if a person has what it takes.

Or lets say mod6 for instance, they micro managed every minute of our life. But on a leadership course should you not maybe make them take responsibility for themselves as they will be responsible for otheres. Let them be their own best friend or worst enemy.

This one is simple, and although my PLQ was almost 20 years ago, one of the strongest memories I have of it relates to your point.  There were a few of us that were considered by others to be getting away with murder, while the others were being "punished" or "micromanaged".  The simple answer to this was that we were taking charge, and not waiting to be told what to do.  The majority of the time that we made a decision (that wasn't absurd), the staff let it go; if at least out of morbid curiosity. 

Believe me, the staff do not want to have to babysit.  It is a huge pain in the ***.  The exceptions are the few douchebags that are on a power trip, but thosee guys get weeded out eventually.

Establish a training value vs cost ratio aka the suggestion I gave about maybe jumping and doing a mini ex with it.

This is done all the time.  Mostly when the troops are sitting around wondering why they can't go home, is when O Gps, or ICs are in their office pounding out the staff work that needs to be done to make it happen.  Something you left out, that is more valuable than money is time.  Trying to coordinate all the moving parts within the Regt/Btln, and with other units can prove difficult.  Combined arms training is considered by most to be the most valuable training, but unfortunately it is the most difficult to coordinate; not necessarily because of money, but mostly because of time coordination.

I also suggested maybe progressing forward instead of reverting back into that known comfort zone. Eg not doing company night live then 2 weeks later doing pairs dry. Or maybe not always doing a frontal.

Once again, time coordination is a factor.  If the Coy range is available now, but not later, then maybe you need to do training bass ackwards.  Troops shouldn't underestimate the importance of the default setting, and basics, and it is up to ICs to make them understand that.  They are what keeps you going in the most severe and stressful conditions. 

Being a football fan, I like to think of it as keeping it simple, and weighing your options in order to get the most gain with the least amount of risk.  Google game theory to see what I mean.  Some person take this to a negative extreme and try to remove all risk, which either isn't possible or doesn't produce any positive results. 

If you could do the same play or slight variations of it over and over again and get 4 yards a play, you are unstoppable.  When you go for the trick play, you may get a big payoff, but it also may end in catastrophe as well.  Playing it too safe i.e. not doing a frontal at all, produces no results, but going deep is too risky; especially when you are responsible for actual lives.

 

[UnwiseCritic]

I understand the football analogy, but if it comes down to a trick play. Don't you want to have at least practiced it a couple times. Too minimize the risk associated with it? Sometimes a trick is required especially when playing against a team that learns quickly and then learns to counter said plays.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

:nod:

Too long, didn't read.....  :

Didn't read the original post, but I found some of the follow-up posts interesting.

 

[57Chevy]

I understand the football analogy, but if it comes down to a trick play. Don't you want to have at least practiced it a couple times. Too minimize the risk associated with it? Sometimes a trick is required especially when playing against a team that learns quickly and then learns to counter said plays.

I played football in highschool and I can assure you that we did the safety blitz only once during the entire year.
We practiced the blitz a number of times and played it against a superior team. We gained a few yards for a 1st down.



* but we lost the game anyway  :nod: