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Correct Grammar, Punctuation... vs Text (Tweets, Emoji…)

I notice that I will still have to go out and buy an Enigma Machine to decipher some of the posts made by some on this site.  It is very time consuming to try and figure out which there, they're, their they're talking about.  Especially when they can't get their where, were, wear right either.  Add to that which witch which they may have included and one really begins to wonder which one won the nightly discusion.  I'll often be thrown off topic when reading someone who states "ill be" something or other.  Are they sick or just illiterate?  No wonder they can't carry on a descent discussion; they can't communicate clearly.  To sum up, some really shouldn't post until they master the written form (not to be confused with 'from').
 
Bad language skills used in conversations should not be pinned on youth alone. I have met enough "adults" who like to blast through conversations on the internet. I think I can speak for most who have faults in their communication skills when I say " It's more of a habit then anything" I do understand that it can be quite annoying to those not used to this "electronic" language but most people including myself (had the topic been different I probably would have had the odd shortcut here and there) just don't think about it, then again most can understand  and don't have to take an extra 10 minutes to read something. I am in know way a professional in grammar, but I like to think I get my point across. This post isn't suggesting that all your beliefs and comments on the issue are wrong, and I agree 100% about the importance of professional conversation on this site and others like it (which is why I made my attempt to add to this discussion in a professional manner, and probably have mistakes, constructive criticism welcome =) ). Just adding my thoughts...
 
The written word is visual, while the spoken word is audio.  In you post, although you may have used Spell Checker, we all know you can not always trust it,we can notice a couple such errors.  When reading, unlike listening to, a 'conversation' how am I to know which word you may have actually meant unless I stop and analyse your sentence.  You made a mistake in using "know" instead of "no" in your post.  If I were listening to you speak that, I would not observe any difference, but in reading it I do and it can be rather disconcerting. 

"Know ways to go." means a completely different thing than "No ways to go."  This is a communication problem that we are trying to address here.   You either know ways to go about this, or there are no ways to go about doing this.......
 
George Wallace said:
I notice that I will still have to go out and buy an Enigma Machine to decipher some of the posts made by some on this site.  It is very time consuming to try and figure out which there, they're, their they're talking about.  Especially when they can't get their where, were, wear right either.  Add to that which witch which they may have included and one really begins to wonder which one won the nightly discusion.  I'll often be thrown off topic when reading someone who states "ill be" something or other.  Are they sick or just illiterate?  No wonder they can't carry on a descent discussion; they can't communicate clearly.  To sum up, some really shouldn't post until they master the written form (not to be confused with 'from').

Well if you are in the market George.....

Enigma Machine

dileas

tess
 
scotia1088 said:
Bad language skills used in conversations should not be pinned on youth alone. I have met enough "adults" who like to blast through conversations on the internet. I think I can speak for most who have faults in their communication skills when I say " It's more of a habit then anything" I do understand that it can be quite annoying to those not used to this "electronic" language but most people including myself (had the topic been different I probably would have had the odd shortcut here and there) just don't think about it, then again most can understand  and don't have to take an extra 10 minutes to read something. I am in know way a professional in grammar, but I like to think I get my point across. This post isn't suggesting that all your beliefs and comments on the issue are wrong, and I agree 100% about the importance of professional conversation on this site and others like it (which is why I made my attempt to add to this discussion in a professional manner, and probably have mistakes, constructive criticism welcome =) ). Just adding my thoughts...

The point, howver, is that some are simply NOT getting their point across.  Those who feel they have some sort of a Charter protection over the use of bad language don't get the answers they seek because they pose poorly presented questions.  Whether that is because of "msn-speak", laziness, inattention, etc., is immaterial. Alternatively, they may find themselves ignored because communicating with them is a frustrating chore, and there are few who come here with the intent or energy to interpret and aid those too lazy to even attempt passable literacy.  It's not a question of who is 'speaking', it's a question of who they are speaking to.  The audience, i.e., the bulk of the members of army.ca, prefer (at a minimum) readable prose that makes sense on first pass.  That improves the communication value of the site, ensures worthwhile responses, and also builds a storehouse of data that can support useful searches for the same information later. If someone wants information here, why should the respondent be doing all of the work starting with decyphering the question?


 
I agree 100%. I also agree that the reason behind bad communication skills is irrelevant. It makes total sense that for a clear and professional conversation, those involved should "speak" clearly… to the best of the persons ability. Obviously ability varies with different individuals.
 
Obviously ability varies with different individuals.

Granted. But it is the intelligent, thoughtful person who, if he/she is to enjoy a debate, wants to get the information across clearly and concisely. That takes effort. No one here was born with the inherit ability to develop and write prose correctly, they all worked at it.
The better ones worked harder.
 
However since the rules on this are in the Guidelines and if people read the Guidelines as they are suppose to when they join then we should have no real issues....yet we still do time and time again.
 
The English language is evolving every day. The Internet is making many more noticable changes to every day language. Now aside from the obvious ignorance and blatant spelling errors I'd like to say my piece in defence of the "MSN/ICQ speakers." Some people speak differently than others, why is that hard to accept? English is changing right now. So you can act like dinosaurs and tell people to speak as you learned to speak, or you can fast forward yourselves to.....(please take a seat if your not sitting) the present day! BLASPHEMY you say? If you have a look in any modern dictionary, many of these instances of "MSN/ICQ speak" are recognized. Mostly the abbreviations. If you really cant understand the new short hand, look it up on www.dictionary.com. You cant stop the new short hand, people use it in the chat room here constantly, so why ask them to stop here? Its whats being used now, all around you, every day. Maybe not by you, and your circle of people, but its there, and it is being accepted. So lets all just get over our pet peeves of this new short hand and move on.

OMG.........RUNNNNNNNNNN
asteroid.jpg


 
And short hand has been around for eons, and has not overtaken the common language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorthand


give your head a shake, and quit being the crusader, we dinosaurs don't like herbivore eating mammals..

dileas

tess
 
MOOXE, what you're arguing is prescriptive grammar ("The Rules") vs. descriptive grammar (usage).  Descriptive grammar is fluid and dynamic yet is not always reflective of prescriptive grammar; over time and if persistent enough, descriptive grammar can replace previous prescriptions.  Linguists are now debating the grammatical correctness of "whom" given the broad usage of "who" in any case. 

Certainly, the Internet (and now other forms of e-mail and IM) is having an influence on the way we communicate.  There's no denying that Internet English has broad usage.  However, the persistence of this form of communication is questionable. 

Next point, this is Army.Ca.  Army comes from some language meaning detail-oriented, accurate, and disciplined (translations vary.  To some, army translates into anal-retentive, pedantic, anachronistic but the gist remains the same).  Ca means Canadian, which means professional and courteous.  In this forum, non-standard English (either RSE or AE or both) is viewed as lazy and disrespectful.  Imagine a troop coming up to the CO unshaven and pockets undone and firing off a lazy salute with his left hand.  Sure, there was an intent to communicate, and to some people that's fine...
 
English has a standard, and a commonly accepted standard at that.  If I can't understand your message, and I need to waste time looking up things because you are incapable of using standard English, I will do one of two things:  I will ignore you completely, as you cannot be trusted to communicate reliably, or I will continue on with my own interpretation of what I think you meant, because you're always saying things that sound like language, but aren't.

Option 2 might not be that worrisome until I'm wiring the Claymore just behind where you went off to take a dump.  Maybe you told me...who the hell knows what you say when you open your mouth anyway?

In the military, bad communications get people killed.  When you are up to your eyeballs in mud and getting shot at,  you may not have the ability to balance your laptop on your latte mug to look up the latest English slang on the Internet.  It might in fact be more useful to you if you understood what your comrades in arms were saying.  It isn't bleeding edge, it isn't evolutionary, it's simply effective.  Language is for communication, not for cutesy, pedantic word games at the expense of communication.

Now, Army.ca is a site run by, for and with military members.  Do the math.  You want to play in this club, follow our rules, otherwise bugger off.



 
What Gunnar said.

Right now, I'm laughing myself silly thinking of Joe Rifleman yelling to his section commander in the middle of an A2C "Sarge! BRB AFR 1 sec K?"
 
MOOXE, even the weekly street rags published in most urban centres, which target you young hipsters, aren't yet being written in leet speek, when they are, come back with your argument.

 
Gunnar said:
Now, Army.ca is a site run by, for and with military members.  Do the math.  You want to play in this club, follow our rules, otherwise bugger off.

I would hope that he would get the drift by now.  Also try a real dictionary if you want the answer: the Oxford English Dictionary  http://www.oed.com/
 
This quote, taken from another thread, gives a good explanation of the requirement and where it comes from.
Michael O'Leary said:
CRZY214,

while your posts may be understood, that does not mean that net-speak is appropriate for any on line purpose. You wouldn't chatter at your grandparents or your principal in street slang, because it is more difficult for them to understand you, it insults their role in your life and it would make you look foolish to them and perhaps incapable of communicating properly in polite company.

Just as you adjust your spoken dialogue to meet the circumstances and audience, you should apply the same criteria in online situations. This forum, like many areas of the web, is NOT populated entirely by the pre-pubescent teens on your MSN contact list. We are not in your schoolyard or on your street corner chewing gum and chatting about skating and grls.

We, at Army.ca are mostly adults, ranging in age from your own to some senior enough to be your grandparent. We include many soldiers, sailors and airmen currently serving in the Canadian Forces, many who have previously served who follow military topics through the forum, and others thinking about joining. The average expectation is reasoned and asked/answered inquiries presented in clearly written Queen's English (or Francais in the applicable forum). Among other things, use of proper English (French) allows effective searches to be made for information.

Please keep in mind where you are when you post here, it makes obtaining useful responses to your questions so much more effective.
 
Michael O'Leary said:
MOOXE, even the weekly street rags published in most urban centres, which target you young hipsters, aren't yet being written in leet speek, when they are, come back with your argument.

Ok I am not that young, and I do not use the leet speak. I know who does use it, and I know why. I also see the language changing because after all, this is the future generation. Things that dont adapt, dont survive. These weekly street rags you speak of, may not be using the ROFL etc shorthand, they do however write in a way that the youngsters can understand. That point is not valid though. Net speak is used to save time at typing (which has in turn created a sub culture), people who publish magazines have no need to save time, atleast the time it takes to type out ROFL. As a side note though, some do use leet speak, but not anywhere near the majority. So anyways....

Sure excessive use is annoying and I will most likely skip that post to. I wont however engage is a flamewar saying its inappropriate, especially if someone only uses a couple abbreviations. The language does appeal to many and is now very common.

For Gunner...

"In the military, bad communications get people killed.  When you are up to your eyeballs in mud and getting shot at,  you may not have the ability to balance your laptop on your latte mug to look up the latest English slang on the Internet.  It might in fact be more useful to you if you understood what your comrades in arms were saying.  It isn't bleeding edge, it isn't evolutionary, it's simply effective.  Language is for communication, not for cutesy, pedantic word games at the expense of communication."

This, forums.army.ca, is not the military. Its a wide open forum available for ANYONE to join and talk. Theres no requirement to speak like your in the army or like someones life depends on what you say in your post. Its also not a training ground for learning how to communicate effectively in the army. Military members know (or will learn quickly after they join) that using non standard abbreviations in comms logs, any type of written request, radio chatter and just any form of comms is not allowed.

In summary. Net speak really isnt that hard to understand, I really, honestly cant believe someone here has had any real difficulty reading a forum post, unless there has been some extreme case. Its not a question of respect that CRZY214 states and people dont use this language to speak to a section commander as Shamrock states,(nobody says BEE-ARE-BEE). To be blunt you can just say the forum rules are this, follow them or dont participate here........ and then you can read lifes rules book that states learn or get left behind.
 
MOOXE said:
To be blunt you can just say the forum rules are this, follow them or dont participate here
Mooxe,
That little bit of your post is what matters.  This rule is not open to debate.  Follow it or you will be gone.
If it helps you sleep at night, you can think you are leaving us behind.  This debate is now closed.
 
from CBC.ca

The importance of proper grammar, spelling and use of punctuation continues to erode.
In our role as CAF members, the requirement for clear, concise, coherent writing can not be
emphasised or reinforced often enough.  Today's news report updates the discussion to include
modern short hand tweets and emoji writing, as not acceptable in a military or business setting:

Using the wrong emoji can cost you — literally
A recent case in the Israeli courts saw a defendant pay $3000 over a few texts and emojis
By Ramona Pringle, for CBC News  Posted: May 26, 2017 5:00 AM ET| Last Updated: May 26, 2017 5:00 AM ET

Imagine if an emoji — one casually fired off in a text-message conversation — ended up costing the sender thousands of dollars. Or $3,000, to be exact.

That's what happened in Israel recently, after a judge determined that a message containing a string of emojis conveyed clear intent. 

The case was a dispute over rent. A landlord placed an ad for his apartment online, and a prospective renter sent the landlord a series of texts, including one that read, "Good morning — <smiley face> — we want the house — <flamenco dancer>, <dancing girls>, <peace sign>, <comet>, <squirrel>, <champagne bottle> —  just need to go over the details…When suits you?"

Based on this and a few other texts, the landlord removed the listing, presuming the renter's intent to take the apartment.

But the renter didn't follow up and never signed any documents. In fact, she disappeared after a few days of communication, which eventually led to this lawsuit.

According to the judge's ruling, the text messages — and the emojis, in particular — signalled clear interest on the part of the renter:

"The…text message sent by defendant…included a smiley, a bottle of champagne, dancing figures and more,"  he wrote. "These icons convey great optimism. Although this message did not constitute a binding contract between the parties, this message naturally led to the plaintiff's great reliance on the defendants' desire to rent his apartment…These symbols, which convey to the other side that everything is in order, were misleading."

The decision also made note of the consistency of the emoji use:

"The festive icons at the beginning of the negotiations...and those smileys at the end of the negotiations...misled the plaintiff to think the defendants were still interested in his apartment. [They] support the conclusion that the defendants acted in bad faith in the negotiations."

The judge ordered the defendant to pay the equivalent of just over $3,000 Canadian dollars.

Shifting communication

While this all might seem a little silly, it signals a not-so-silly shift in the way communication is changing. Short messages can deliver major consequences. Images, emojis and 140-character messages carry weight like never before.

The president of the United States, for example, can send markets tumbling or put foreign leaders on alert with just a short burst on Twitter, his platform of choice. And every few months, a scandal hits the headlines in which someone has resigned from his or her job based on a tweet —presumably, one issued with hardly a second thought.

But this ruling on emojis has set a totally new precedent and raised all sorts of new questions. Top of mind is this: who decides what a particular emoji means? While some are very clear — it's easy to make the argument that a champagne bottle says, "Let's pop open the bubbly to celebrate our new home!" —  many others are open to vast interpretation.

For instance, what was the meaning of the squirrel emoji in the renter's text? Or what if someone sends someone else a water gun emoji — could that constitute a threat? And doesn't the commonly used grimacing face look an awful lot like a happy smile?

The answer, of course, is that there is no objective answer — not yet. Which means we need to be ever more vigilant in taking that extra second before we hit "enter" to decide if that tweet, or text, or emoji is the one we really want to send. As we know, the consequences can sometimes be <dollar bills> emoji.
 
kratz said:
from CBC.ca

The importance of proper grammar, spelling and use of punctuation continues to erode.
In our role as CAF members, the requirement for clear, concise, coherent writing can not be
emphasised or reinforced often enough.  Today's news report updates the discussion to include
modern short hand tweets and emoji writing, as not acceptable in a military or business setting:
As an educational leader and military member I concur.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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