Correcting the continuing ignorance regarding the NDP (& shots on the Conservatives)

[fez]

This isnt gonna be a good first post but I think its time someone stood up to the banter here a bit. Simply put the continuing ignorance regarding the role of the NDP in the degradation and missmanagement of the military is astounding. Dont any of you realize its successive conservative and liberal govs who have done this? Dont you know by now the Tories would choose a tax cut over properly giving you guys more than 5 measly bullets a year for rifle training? Or enough armor vests or helmets so returning troops dont have to hand them over to incoming troops? The ndp had nothing to do with this situation. We only ever were able federally to effect some small changes during minority govs only as of late.

How about those afghan training workups for troops about to go into theater? Apparently theres no training to recognize ied's? This from an ex marine corps guy who joined the forces recently and is horrified at the lousy pre deployment training... What about those dark green armor vests on tan camos? We can afford billions for aircraft (wholeheartedly support any and all purchases as we need just about everything we can get our hands on at this point) but we cant afford basics for the boots on the ground? 

Dont get me started on unions some of you guys just dont realize where the middle class in this country came from. If it wasnt for unions we'd all be competing with cheap labor. Trust me on this one you WILL see a major influx of immigrants who WILL take your wages to the bottom on civvy street under the libertories. 

Alberta is giving its oil away. Look at Norway with its 200 billion in its trust fund and get back to me. And yes its as hard to get oil out of the north sea as it is from the tar sands.

Im a big supporter of the military. And a long time NDP supporter who knows many vets in the ndp.  There is no reason we cant spend 30 billion a year on the military today. Its not a choice between social programs and the military. Its a choice between tax cuts for billionaires, oil firms ect... and program spending. Are there some in the ndp who are anti military? Of course as there are in all parties.  Itd be a whole lot smarter to get informed about who supports you in all parties.  Rather than ignore the corridors of power in favor of simplistic propaganda from the right. That same right that sold the chinooks and gutted what little was left in the forces that the libs hadnt already gutted.

As a 2 time candidate for office (provincially) I will continue to support the forces and especially the little guys.  Hillier has a hell of job ahead of him to reform the stagnation in the forces and ass backward thinking that has also led to a lot of the degradation. I just hope the men and women under arms will realize where their real support lies. Its not just in one party.

As for afghanistan there is reason to be concerned. A war against the taliban has become a war against opium. Thus against a vast swath of the afghani population.  At the very least we need to buy that crop to turn it into cheap meds on the world market. We shouldnt be in the US boat on this they are paranoid about anything "drugs".  Recent election wont likely change that.  If not the mission could very well be fubared. Nato and press reports are not very optimistic here. From kids starving less than a couple miles from base camp in Kandahar to reports of the taliban massing now less than 100 miles from Kabul... I doubt those handful of leos can overturn a badly managed campaign.

 

[GAP]

And your point being?  ???

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

This isnt gonna be a good first post but I think its time someone stood up to the banter here a bit.

Good start...  ^-^

Simply put the continuing ignorance regarding the role of the NDP in the degradation and missmanagement of the military is astounding. Dont any of you realize its successive conservative and liberal govs who have done this?

Of course we do.

Dont you know by now the Tories would choose a tax cut over properly giving you guys more than 5 measly bullets a year for rifle training?

You don't seriously think we get five rounds a year for training?

Or enough armor vests or helmets so returning troops dont have to hand them over to incoming troops? The ndp had nothing to do with this situation. We only ever were able federally to effect some small changes during minority govs only as of late.

No, but the NDP has - for many, many years - made repeated demands for cuts to defence spending.  Worse, the NDP has demonstrated - repeatedly - a profound ignorance of defence matters that they have broadcast to a wider Canadian audience in a deliberate effort to destroy Canada's military potential.

How about those afghan training workups for troops about to go into theater? Apparently theres no training to recognize ied's? This from an ex marine corps guy who joined the forces recently and is horrified at the lousy pre deployment training... What about those dark green armor vests on tan camos? We can afford billions for aircraft (wholeheartedly support any and all purchases as we need just about everything we can get our hands on at this point) but we cant afford basics for the boots on the ground? 

Again, check your sources.  The IED training manual is on my desk as I type.  "Ex marine", eh?  Does he know how the USMC trains now?  What equipment they're issued for Afghanistan?  Our "basics" are probably the best of any country currently with troops deployed in Afghanistan - including the US.  We issue NVGs in numbers unlike any other army, have much better body armour, and personal weapons are the equal of anyone.  The CF has nothing to apologize for regarding the issue of personal equipment - quibbles regarding specific items aside.

Dont get me started on unions some of you guys just dont realize where the middle class in this country came from. If it wasnt for unions we'd all be competing with cheap labor. Trust me on this one you WILL see a major influx of immigrants who WILL take your wages to the bottom on civvy street under the libertories. 

No one said such.  We're asking why unions are spending their members' money on far left political activities that we're convinced the bulk of the membership wouldn't support.

Alberta is giving its oil away. Look at Norway with its 200 billion in its trust fund and get back to me. And yes its as hard to get oil out of the north sea as it is from the tar sands.

*ahem* Heritage Trust Fund  *ahem*

Im a big supporter of the military. And a long time NDP supporter who knows many vets in the ndp.  There is no reason we cant spend 30 billion a year on the military today. Its not a choice between social programs and the military. Its a choice between tax cuts for billionaires, oil firms ect... and program spending. Are there some in the ndp who are anti military? Of course as there are in all parties.  Itd be a whole lot smarter to get informed about who supports you in all parties.  Rather than ignore the corridors of power in favor of simplistic propaganda from the right. That same right that sold the chinooks and gutted what little was left in the forces that the libs hadnt already gutted.

I can only imagine the screaming from the NDP should the defence budget be increased to $30 billion...  Get real.  The NDP has opposed every major defence purchase within recent memory.  Witness Ms Black's recent completely ill-informed comments regarding Excalibur artillery rounds.

As a 2 time candidate for office (provincially) I will continue to support the forces and especially the little guys.  Hillier has a hell of job ahead of him to reform the stagnation in the forces and ass backward thinking that has also led to a lot of the degradation. I just hope the men and women under arms will realize where their real support lies. Its not just in one party.

And certainly not in the NDP.  "Support our troops, withdraw from Afghanistan!"  :

As for afghanistan there is reason to be concerned. A war against the taliban has become a war against opium.

Oh, how so?  Have Canadian troops been directly engaged in counter-narcotics operations?  Or have I missed something?

Thus against a vast swath of the afghani population.

And you get this conclusion from where?  Gallup take a poll in Kandahar/Helmand province?

At the very least we need to buy that crop to turn it into cheap meds on the world market. We shouldnt be in the US boat on this they are paranoid about anything "drugs".  Recent election wont likely change that.  If not the mission could very well be fubared.  Nato and press reports are not very optimistic here. From kids starving less than a couple miles from base camp in Kandahar to reports of the taliban massing now less than 100 miles from Kabul... I doubt those handful of leos can overturn a badly managed campaign.

"Kids starving".  You have a single source on this - the Senlis Council, a group that's been thoroughly debunked here, but is still quoted by the more politically motivated.  Afghanistan is a poor country - very poor.  Some villages in the mountains would be even more shocking.  Why do you think we're there?

"Taliban massing".  Again, an unsubstantiated press report.  You realize, of course, that the Taliban has always been "less than 100 miles" from Kabul and has always operated in Kabul province.

"Badly managed".  An interesting blanket statement, with no supporting proof.  In the light of the Taliban military threat, what would you and your NDP supporters have done?  Oh yeah, I remember - pulled the pin and withdrawn in shame...  :

 

[GAP]

You have far more patience than I TR....

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I would say Fez is a drive by hoping for an anti NDP rant from some of our more passionate members. Excellent reply TR.

 

[exsemjingo]

Dont any of you realize its successive conservative and liberal govs who have done this? Dont you know by now the Tories would choose a tax cut over properly giving you guys more than 5 measly bullets a year for rifle training? The ndp had nothing to do with this situation.

The NDP are only useless in terms of the things they do accomplish, not in terms of being able to accomplish nothing.  Keep your revisionist lies of non-influence for the party convention.

How about those afghan training workups for troops about to go into theater? Apparently theres no training to recognize ied's? This from an ex marine corps guy who joined the forces recently and is horrified at the lousy pre deployment training...

Yeah!  The Army should change gears overnight, strait from a mostly Peacekeeping force (another NDP influence) to a force so hard and tough even the USMC can't keep up.  If only Gen. Hillier wasn't such a softy...

What about those dark green armor vests on tan camos? We can afford billions for aircraft (wholeheartedly support any and all purchases as we need just about everything we can get our hands on at this point) but we cant afford basics for the boots on the ground? 

Why don't you look at the Afghan countryside?  Sparse (green) vegetation on tan soil.  But I see your point: If the NDP ran things there would be a lot more capital and material not tied up in private investment.

Don't get me started on unions some of you guys just dont realize where the middle class in this country came from. If it wasn't for unions we'd all be competing with cheap labor. Trust me on this one you WILL see a major influx of immigrants who WILL take your wages to the bottom on civvy street under the libertories.   

Why not?  Because someone here might shoot you down?  Check my last posts, and tell me if you want me to expand my sarcasm to a comprehensive indindictment. But you've gotta hate those damned job-stealing immigrants.

Alberta is giving its oil away. Look at Norway with its 200 billion in its trust fund and get back to me. And yes its as hard to get oil out of the north sea as it is from the tar sands.

We'd put more into the Heritage trust fund if NDP endorsed transfer payments weren't so high.  But for now we can look at non-hypothetical cases, where Conservative Alberta's oilsands are a great economic engine, and NDP dominated Saskatchewan's are a bedrock covering. 

I'm a big supporter of the military.

Because it's conconvenient to say so for now?

And a long time NDP supporter... 

This contradicts the above.

There is no reason we cant spend 30 billion a year on the military today. Its not a choice between social programs and the military. Its a choice between tax cuts for billionaires, oil firms ect... and program spending.

You'd better show some numbers if you think these two groups have $30 billion of additional profit available for tax payments.  Not to mention some reasoning as to why they would stay in this country if we leveled such punishing tax hikes on them.

Are there some in the ndp who are anti military? Of course as there are in all parties.  Itd be a whole lot smarter to get informed about who supports you in all parties.

You are the ignorant one.  Also, save your dogmatic rhetoric for when you call AM talk radio shows. :

 
That same right that sold the chinooks and gutted what little was left in the forces that the libs hadnt hadn'tdy gutted.

Have you been sleeping for the past 15 years?  Our current government is mostly ex-Reform party, not lingering Red-Torries

As a 2 time candidate for office (provincially) I will continue to support the forces and especially the little guys.  I just hope the men and women under arms will realize where their real support lies.

Maybe we will be as thoughtful as the voters in your riding.

As for iAfghanistan there is reason to be concerned. A war against the taliban has become a war against opium. Thus against a vast swath of the afghaniAfghantion.   At the very least we need to buy that crop to turn it into cheap meds on the world market. We shouldnt e US boat on this they are paranoid about anything "drugs".   Recent election wont likely change that.  If not the mission could very well be fubared. Nato and press reports are not very optimistic here. From kids starving less than a couple miles from base camp in Kandahar to reports of the taliban massing now less than 100 miles from Kabul... I doubt those handful of leos can overturn a badly managed campaign.

Would any returning vets like to refute this one?  Or is this not worth the time?  I'll leave it to those in the know...

...From kids starving less than a couple miles from base camp in Kandahar

Maybe thier parents could find work in Canada.  Oh wait, you wouldn't like that.

Don't patronize us, you walking argument against freedom of speach.
By the way, welcome to army.ca.  You will generally find more intellignet discourse than what you have presented here (except for in Radio Chatter), and might also find that few here share any of your delusions.
Maybe you will learn a thing or two.

 

[McG]

Simply put the continuing ignorance regarding the role of the NDP in the degradation and missmanagement of the military is astounding.

. . . but, we are bang-on with our view of the federal NDPs in the current deception of the Canadian public as to the role of the Canadian Forces and the military contribution in Afghanistan.  (I only assume because you failed to address this issue, yet fed us some of the misinformation that we often lament on this site)

Dont any of you realize its successive conservative and liberal govs who have done this?

We are aware and it has been posted in many threads.  However, I don’t recall ever hearing the NDP oppose reductions to the defence budget or capabilities of the Canadian Forces.  Can you give me an example?

Dont you know by now the Tories would choose a tax cut over properly giving you guys … enough armor vests or helmets so returning troops dont have to hand them over to incoming troops?

I still have my helmet.  My armour went back to clothing stores, but it will be available as soon as I need it (but I don’t need it right now).

The ndp had nothing to do with this situation.  We only ever were able federally to effect some small changes during minority govs only as of late.

So (again) show me where the party opposed defence capability reductions.

How about those afghan training workups for troops about to go into theater?

What about it?

Apparently theres no training to recognize ied's?

Yes there is.  I did IED trg before deploying last Jan.  The guys that replaced us did it aswell (and the guys that will replace them have done & are doing this training).

What about those dark green armor vests on tan camos?

My armour was arid CADPAT (the same brown pattern as my combat uniform).  I have never had any item of kit referred to as “camos.”

We can afford billions for aircraft … but we cant afford basics for the boots on the ground? 

You need better information to support this.

Dont get me started on unions some of you guys just dont realize where the middle class in this country came from. If it wasnt for unions we'd all be competing with cheap labor. Trust me on this one you WILL see a major influx of immigrants who WILL take your wages to the bottom on civvy street under the libertories.   

How does this make it okay for a union (without consulting its membership) to provide membership dues to a political agenda that has called our soldiers war criminals & is fully divorced from labour issues?

Im a big supporter of the military.

Thank you.

There is no reason we cant spend 30 billion a year on the military today. Its not a choice between social programs and the military. Its a choice between tax cuts for billionaires, oil firms ect... and program spending.

Why do I never hear this in the NDP platform.  I do hear the exact opposite often.

Are there some in the ndp who are anti military? Of course as there are in all parties.  Itd be a whole lot smarter to get informed about who supports you in all parties.  Rather than ignore the corridors of power in favor of simplistic propaganda from the right.

It seems to me that the NDPers at the top are the anti-military types, and the party policy reflects that.  It is hard to belive this thinking does not go all the way to the bottom (especially when riding associations bring forward motions to accuse soldiers of terrorism).

As for afghanistan there is reason to be concerned. A war against the taliban has become a war against opium. Thus against a vast swath of the afghani population.   At the very least we need to buy that crop to turn it into cheap meds on the world market. We shouldnt be in the US boat on this they are paranoid about anything "drugs".   Recent election wont likely change that.  If not the mission could very well be fubared. Nato and press reports are not very optimistic here. From kids starving less than a couple miles from base camp in Kandahar to reports of the taliban massing now less than 100 miles from Kabul... I doubt those handful of leos can overturn a badly managed campaign.

Lots of really bad information in here.  You need to go visit Ruxted.ca and get your facts right.  We are not involved in poppy eradication.  The US is not the lead for international military efforts in Afghanistan.  But, maybe you would answer the one question we would like to hear from the NDP?  What does the NDP think should be done in Afghanistan?  Should we abandon the country to civil war?

 

[jamesromanow]

it's a nice rant, but the NDP is the refuge of the traditional Cdn pacifist:  people who believe that war is a plot by rulers to keep the peasants busy.  Haven't yet spoken to a pro-military NDP member.  Mind you I live in hope that one day someone in the NDP will concede that occasionally the guy who throws the first punch is not necessarily acting out of love for his fellow proletariat.

 

[TCBF]

Unfortunately, the Left in Canada suffer from a collective form of 'Penis Envy.'  They want to be like the REAL Left - in the USA - but they can't be.  We didn't fight in Vietnam, but the Left in our country treated the Canadian military as if we did (remember catching a city bus in short hair and a uniform in the '70s?  Not fun...).  We didn't invade Iraq, but they ascribe to the Afghan mission all of the perceived evils of the Iraqi campaign.  We don't have a whole hockey-sock of domestic war criminals, so we have a radical feminazi lawyer hoping to find 'War Crimes' in the daily activities of the CF in Afghanistan. 

Even their "We support the troops" lies are tinted with Americanisms, from sympathising with military issues that exist in the USA but not here, to the stock photos used that often show US soldiers in an article on the Canadian military.  You see, the Left are not really Canadians, they are "Internationalists" who take their treats from their "Internationalist" masters south of the 49th.

Look at the Alberta Veteran's insert the other day in an Edmonton paper:  Picture of a US  Soldier inside, and some guy in a bus driver's uniform (back to us, so no accoutrements visible) on the cover saluting, superimposed on a picture of a Canadian flag.  They had to do it that way, as they don't really know what a Canadian uniform looks like.  They burned all of the photos that didn't have Blue Berets in them. At least they got the flag right.  But they should, as it replaced our 'colonial' flag.

It all makes me want to just spit.

(ptui!)

There, I feel better now.

Tom

 

[fez]

I get my info from a master bombardier with 10 years service in the forces. He left the forces for the marine corps and has kept in touch with his buds in the forces since and hes related that and many more instances of missing essentials and bad policy. Isnt it true you are limited in the number of ammo clips to take into combat? Whereas us forces take as many as they can carry? The 5 bullet limit was for the yearly rifle tests I was told.  With only infantrymen allowed more. They have again no such limits in the US forces... The ied ref was told me this summer and he said his unit hadnt been properly trained in its workup to deployment and was in fact wasting time doing typical european theater training like crossing large rivers...

Isnt it irrelevant about whether our small contingent is involved poppy eradication? Its the current US policy who are the bulk of the mission and when pashtun farmers are obviously supporting the taliban as a move against this anti opium program we can only question how well the overall mission will be.

Of course the NDP is the pacifist party.  But if you think socialists are all anti military you dont know jack, remember the warsaw pact? They were spending  far more of gdp on the military than the west ever did. 

If the ndp is not properly showcasing the failings of the afghan mission then you neednt worry with the 2 large mainstream parties and all their air time they can correct any errors. I find the ndp is a bit more on the money than you guys care to admit. No party wants to be caught in a gross error. I seriously think you need to see where the real errors lie.

As for those who think freedom of speech is a waste I think it best when my own family who served in 2 ww didnt fight for those who also thought the same. Your condescending BS attitudes wont get far with me.  I can salute the flag even with emoticons if I choose. Being in the NDP doesnt make one less of a canadian. But maybe being a bad canadian does. 

I notice some of my so called errors are uncorrected by 8 posts so far... I wonder how much more bile vs "facts" Ill be presented with.

Alberta and Canada has far lower royalty rates than Norway which charges 31%. This has nothing to do with transfer payments.  Tax cuts = program spending cuts and yes that will include bad choices and compromises for military spending. 

 

[Trinity]

I seriously think you need to see where the real errors lie.

I have no doubt we do.  It seems to be in your posts.

But I'll let TCBF and MCG correct you because we don't need a dogpile.

It's hard to take the rest of your post seriously when you start off saying we only
get 5 rounds per year training.... your friend was telling you lies to see if you'd believe it.

 

[Pte_Martin]

I have no doubt we do.  It seems to be in your posts.

But I'll let TCBF and MCG correct you because we don't need a dogpile.

It's hard to take the rest of your post seriously when you start off saying we only
get 5 rounds per year training.... your friend was telling you lies to see if you'd believe it.

By the looks of it he does believe the lies

 

[Kirkhill]

But if you think socialists are all anti military you dont know jack, remember the warsaw pact? They were spending  far more of gdp on the military than the west ever did. 

I was trying not to join the dogpile but with this one line you have managed to give me the best laugh of the day.  Joe Stalin and Brezhnev as exemplars of the NDP and apparently we don't know Jack so presumably he is comfortable in that company............Thank you, and thank you and thank you. ;D

 

[scm77]

This from an ex marine corps guy who joined the forces recently

I get my info from a master bombardier with 10 years service in the forces. He left the forces for the marine corps

Care to clarify?

 

[Kirkhill]

He left the forces for the marine corps and has kept in touch with his buds in the forces since and hes related that and many more instances of missing essentials and bad policy

The ied ref was told me this summer and he said his unit hadnt been properly trained in its workup to deployment and was in fact wasting time doing typical european theater training like crossing large rivers...

And to add to Scotty's query:

Was it before or after he left/joined the Marine Corps/CF that he didn't get the right training?  You seem to be saying that your buddy is ex-CF and was disgruntled at CF training so he joined the US Marines whereupon he discovered they were teaching Euro theater tactics and not prepping them with the right kit or properly prepping them for IEDs.  Perhaps he should come back to the CF.

 

[fez]

Care to clarify?

2 diff people. One left the forces a few years ago this guy (also a friend of the one still in the marines) went through his workup recently.

 

[fez]

I was trying not to join the dogpile but with this one line you have managed to give me the best laugh of the day.  Joe Stalin and Brezhnev as exemplars of the NDP and apparently we don't know Jack so presumably he is comfortable in that company............Thank you, and thank you and thank you. ;D

LOL I knew some of you would jump at this.  Of course there's a world of diff tween the stalinists and the social democrats. Your ignorance of the differences is palatable.  Then again is there a difference between the nazis and todays western capitalists? Both enjoyed good relationships with the corporations of their day.

 

[fez]

By the looks of it he does believe the lies

Well if its a lie Ill ask him to come on here and clarify. And also expose the other complaints he had and has been told about the forces...

 

[fez]

My armour was arid CADPAT (the same brown pattern as my combat uniform).  I have never had any item of kit referred to as “camos.”

Do you watch the news?

Im not familiar with all military terms.  But that of course irrelevant. We have been seeing and continue to see you guys with dark green armor vests (paint a target on them why dont ya!) on top of tan shirts on tv.

I find you guys extrapolate the BS from fringe elements in the NDP (and yes every party has them to a degree) vs the actual motions that get presented and carried at our recent conventions.

Which btw explains the union spending for peace activists. No union $ is spent without a motion. I should know Im a cupe local pres. We dont spend 10$ without a motion at a union meeting. Be nice to see you guys rant on the billions spent by right wingers and corporations trying to plug our collective skulls with BS. 

 

[Pte_Martin]

Well if its a lie Ill ask him to come on here and clarify. And also expose the other complaints he had and has been told about the forces...

Sounds good I'd like to hear from him, considering 3RCR had been running ranges for over two months, we've had a lot more than 5 rds per soldier. We've done C-7, C-6, Carl G, Grenades