Cost of living in Halifax or BC vs Ontario (Ne Tech costs vs LCIS costs)

[RedMan]

I currently live in Windsor, Ontario. Just lost a job as an Electronics Technician for 14 years ($22/hour). We have been paying for our own home here for over 8 years now. Jobs are hard to find and they are mostly minimum wage. My wife runs a home day care from our house. I have 2 kids that are home schooled. With a minimum wage job, we would be barely getting by... (our home would be valued at around $160,000 right now. 3 bedroom, lots of space)

I am currently (and seriously) considering enrolling as an Electronics Tech for Navy or for LCIS/ATIS. The big problem we have is figuring out if we can manage it financially on just my military salary. We want to get a home as soon as possible after BMQ (of course after our home in Windsor is sold)

I know whatever choice I make/get, it will take a good 1.5 to 2+ years (of trade training) after BMQ before I get posted somewhere. I know the CF won't pay for our move (lawyer,closing costs,etc for house) until I am posted. I have no plan of being away from my family that long!

Going LCIS/ATIS (normal enrolment)6-7 hours away to Kingston) If we were to sell our house and buy in Kingston it would be on my $32000. The wife would not be working (for a good while at least). The costs there would most likely be similar to Windsor. We don't want to do PMQs after reading the horror stories. We like our house here I can't afford my own apartment (for the family to visit) and pay the mortgage on my house in Windsor. I don't want to wait 2 years to bring them here, or somewhere else! Has anyone else gone this route and made it with a family and buying a home in the Kingston area?

Going Navy NE Tech (SEP - Supplemental Education Plan) : Basically I would go to RCC Institute (4 hours away)for 2 years for their Electronics Engineering Technician course and the CF would pay for all the schooling costs and my rent, and pay me $32000 1st year, $37000 2nd year, and when I'm done there I would start at $52000. The big difference here is that my wife and kids would stay in our house (in Windsor) for the 2 years and she would still make money... and they could come up and stay with me for 3 days a week whenever they want (because of homeschooling).

Then when I had to go to Halifax for trades training,etc. they would come with me (at my own expense still I assume) as we would try to buy a house there. What we need to know is what the cost of living would be like there (or BC if we ever got posted there after), as it would be on my $52000 salary for quite a while.

Halifax seems to be mostly oil heated and taxes are higher than here in Ontario (until HST takes over! maybe). BC seems to be expensive period. We don't want to find ourselves unable to buy a home because we can't afford the daily living on the east/west coasts. Would a Navy LS at $52000/yr be able to afford a decent 3 bedroom house at either coast, and not have to drive more than 30 mins to get to base???


Also... do you get PLD if you are buying your own house???  There is PLD in Halifax and BC (don't know the amount,help!), but none in Kingston (lame..)


We don't want to go through all this and find that we would/could be in worse shape than we are financially. (we have no debt, except for our house ($1200/month) and a car payment ($350/month).

Any help, advice and info would be great.

 

[TN2IC]

Halifax idea would be your best bet! You would be on  IR will there on course. Or stayin in the barracks. As for PLD, the rate is around $600 per month. And no, not all of our heating is oil. Housing is cheap too, if you look around. Just avoid the PMQ's. The plow guy seems to destory green bins for some reason.

 

[Occam]

A few points:

- I can't offer much info about your "living in Kingston" scenario, as I'm not up to speed on what benefits are available to personnel prior to their first operational posting.
- Re: RCCI - have you inquired with the Recruiting Centre to see if there are any approved colleges under NCM-SEP that are closer to your home, Fanshawe perhaps?
- Have you explored the skilled (or semi-skilled) entrant route, and asked for a PLA?  The recruiting incentive would be a nice bonus if you choose an eligible trade, and acting Cpl/LS is always nice to get when you graduate BMQ.
- If you were to join via the NCM-SEP route - once you've finished college, and you get sent to CFNES in Halifax for class of ship training - I'm not entirely sure what status you're on.  I would inquire about when you would be allowed to do your cost move, whether it's at the end of college/start of class of ship training, or at the end of class of ship training/first posting to ship.
- Halifax would definitely be easier on your wallet than Esquimalt.  PLD is higher at Esquimalt, but I don't believe it compensates nearly enough.  Real estate is (generally) cheaper in Halifax than you're used to.  A nice 3 bedroom semi in or close to the city would run you $160,000, a detached home more than that but not by much.  You're going to want to be on a bus route, as you won't be driving in to work until you've at least got your CD...  ;D
- you do NOT want to be on electric heat in NS unless your home is relatively new and insulated to the max.  Oil heat is the way to go there, or natural gas if you're one of the select few that have access to it at this point.
- You do get PLD if you buy a house or rent an apartment.  Last I saw it was $630/month in Halifax, $816/month in Victoria/Esquimalt.
- Food is more expensive in NS.  I'm not sure what the current price is, but milk has got to be over $7/four litres by now (provincially regulated price).  Meats, veggies, and fruit are quite a bit more expensive than you'd be used to, even on special.  Seafood is mostly cheaper, though.
- gasoline (which is also provincially regulated) is more expensive in NS, on average 10-15 cents/litre higher than the average Ontario price.

 

[RedMan]

Halifax idea would be your best bet! You would be on  IR will there on course. Or stayin in the barracks.

What is IR? I'm still learning the 1000's off abbreviations on this site...

You're going to want to be on a bus route, as you won't be driving in to work until you've at least got your CD... 

Also what is CD?

Thanks for the info. I grew up in Chatham Ontario, so when I moved to Windsor, the cost of living there was high compared to Chatham. I also was in Army Cadets for years and was at Ipperwash and Petawawa for the summers. When we did PT, that one hill/road at Pet was KILLER on the way up, but was insane when you rolled down....   I guess they don't use the old FN-C1/C2's anymore?

What is oil heating like? I assume it is forced air?  Some of the apartments here in windsor still use the old radiated heating. Electric can give some people dry throats,etc...

So much info...  ANY info from anyone is appreciated!

I will get a PLA done, but I need to know what I am aiming for here... I  was told by my recruiter that my 2 year College Tech Diploma (at St. Clair) is not recognised, but some of my classes and my 14 year work experience may be. If I were to somehow (very unlikely ) get a signing bonus ($10,000) for LCIS/ATIS.... that would make a big difference in my choice. I just don't like the idea of being away from my wife and kids for 2 years while doing POET and QL3's. If i could afford to have them with me... that makes a big difference. (which is why the navy SEP option works better for us financially)

I however think I am better suited for LCIS/ATIS. Its hard to get concrete answers from the recruiting office on some details...

 

[Occam]

What is IR? I'm still learning the 1000's off abbreviations on this site...

Imposed restriction.  Essentially if you are posted, your dependents and F&E (furniture & effects) stay where they are, and you go to the new place of duty for 1-2 years.  You're provided with accommodations (and meals?  not sure on that) at Crown expense at the new place of duty.  Not what you're looking for, from what you were saying.

Also what is CD?

Canadian Decoration - you get it after 12 years of service.

Thanks for the info. I grew up in Chatham Ontario, so when I moved to Windsor, the cost of living there was high compared to Chatham. I also was in Army Cadets for years and was at Ipperwash and Petawawa for the summers. When we did PT, that one hill/road at Pet was KILLER on the way up, but was insane when you rolled down....   I guess they don't use the old FN-C1/C2's anymore?

Nope, the FNC1 was replaced by the C7 back in the late 1980's.

What is oil heating like? I assume it is forced air?  Some of the apartments here in windsor still use the old radiated heating. Electric can give some people dry throats,etc...

Oil heat is typically forced hot air.  Occasionally you'll see small oil-fired boilers used with hot water baseboard (HWBB) heating.

I will get a PLA done, but I need to know what I am aiming for here... I  was told by my recruiter that my 2 year College Tech Diploma (at St. Clair) is not recognised, but some of my classes and my 14 year work experience may be. If I were to somehow (very unlikely ) get a signing bonus ($10,000) for LCIS/ATIS.... that would make a big difference in my choice. I just don't like the idea of being away from my wife and kids for 2 years while doing POET and QL3's. If i could afford to have them with me... that makes a big difference. (which is why the navy SEP option works better for us financially)

I think the recruiter you spoke to is wrong about your diploma not being recognized.  I can almost guarantee you that if you applied for membership with OACETT as a C.Tech and were granted your ticket, the CF will grant you semi-skilled status for ATIS/LCIS/NE Tech.  Requirements for C.Tech designation are:

4. I'm applying to be certified as a Technician (C.Tech.). What are OACETT's requirements
for certification?
Minimum requirements for certification as a Certified Technician are:
• you are a graduate of a 2-year post secondary engineering technician or applied science diploma
program or equivalent
• you successfully pass our Professional Practice Examination (PPE)
• you submit documentation of at least two years of appropriate level experience
• you must demonstrate a facility with the working language and facility with the standards, codes
and practices of the discipline(s) in which you are seeking certification. Normally these are
gained by working in Canada for one year.
• you are at least 18 years old and of good character
• you must complete the certification requirements within 3 or 6 years from date of file review,
depending on whether you have been assigned further academic competencies to complete. You
will be given a completion date.

You would be crazy not to check with OACETT about membership, given your training and experience.  Could be the best money you ever spent.

I however think I am better suited for LCIS/ATIS. Its hard to get concrete answers from the recruiting office on some details...

Maybe one of the recruiters here can offer some assistance in that regard.....any takers?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Just a point to note:

If you go LCIC or ATIS Tech, you will be posted to CFSCE in Kingston (CF School of Communications and Electronics).  That means you'll be there for more than a year, and that means you'll be able to move your family there, and you can get a PMQ is there are any available. 

My friend did that a year or two ago, waited until he get there on POET, got settled and then got approval to move the family from NS (CF paid for the move) and he went into a PMQ until his finished his ATIS Tech QL3 and was then posted to his first unit.

So...as an ATIS Tech and I believe LCIS too, you can have your family with you and live out during your training (if you are married/common law).  Single candidates have to live in the shacks.

 

[RedMan]

Minimum requirements for certification as a Certified Technician are:
• you are a graduate of a 2-year post secondary engineering technician or applied science diploma
program or equivalent

Here I think lies my problem... and probably what my recruiter may be referring to.  My diploma is for 2 year (no school during summer) Electronics Technician at St. Clair College...  its not an Electronics ENGINEERING Technician diploma (which they had at St. Clair but that was 3 years, no summers).  A 2 year course (including summers) at RCC is Electronics Engineering.

The key word is Engineering, which my diploma doesn't have... just Electronics Technician.  Though my course load seemed to be very similar to alot of POETs classes. I did check the OACETT site recently, but was a little daunted and thrown off as to what it might entail... also money is a bit tight as I have yet to receive any EI yet 

So I am to assume that you need to have at least 1 year of being in one place (for POET and QL3), to "possibly" be eligible for a paid move (does that include closing costs,lawyer for a house?).  If we chose to temporarily go into a PMQ, could we look at a what's available (when the time comes) and then say "No thanks" and just go into a civvies apartment instead, giving fair notice of course?




Also, what are the "Shacks" like in Kingston? Is it possible for me to bring my desktop computer (not laptop) and Monitor with me? What about my TV? (61" LED DLP... my baby) Can you get Internet access in them. Is there any privacy or do I have to be in a "room" with others? Could I have the wife (and possibly kids) come and stay over night on a weekend at all? I saw some info in other threads but nothing more recently...

If I could have my CPU with Internet and my TV there, it would make my lonely weekends much better... as I am married for 11 years and don't plan on going out and partying when I do get "some" free time...Scyping would go a long way for us...I won't have a car with me... she will have it! What exactly can you bring with you after BMQ???

Another possibility, would be to have the wife and kids stay at home until the house sold (up to 1 plus years, it could be earlier, but we have to pay a penalty if we do). They would then come to visit say once a month for a couple of days and I put them up in a Motel. (7 hour drives each way is a bit long though) 

I am currently doing lots of reading, brushing up on math (for CFAT), and slowly getting into shape. (20 pushups, 25 situps, 20-30 mins of running, and lots of Wii Fit + everyday)

 

[Occam]

Here I think lies my problem... and probably what my recruiter may be referring to.  My diploma is for 2 year (no school during summer) Electronics Technician at St. Clair College...  its not an Electronics ENGINEERING Technician diploma (which they had at St. Clair but that was 3 years, no summers).  A 2 year course (including summers) at RCC is Electronics Engineering.

The key word is Engineering, which my diploma doesn't have... just Electronics Technician.  Though my course load seemed to be very similar to alot of POETs classes. I did check the OACETT site recently, but was a little daunted and thrown off as to what it might entail... also money is a bit tight as I have yet to receive any EI yet 

Don't let the word "Engineering" throw you off.

You described the two Electronics Engineering Technology programs that have been around for some time now.  The two-year program leads to a diploma as an Electronics Engineering Technician, and certification as a Certified Technician (C.Tech).  The three-year program leads to a diploma as an Electronics Engineering Technologist, and certification as a Certified Engineering Technologist (C.E.T.).

If you hold C.Tech certification, you're a shoe-in for semi-skilled entrant status (and the $20,000 recruiting incentive, if it applies to the trade you enrol in).  My bet is that you qualify.

So I am to assume that you need to have at least 1 year of being in one place (for POET and QL3), to "possibly" be eligible for a paid move (does that include closing costs,lawyer for a house?).  If we chose to temporarily go into a PMQ, could we look at a what's available (when the time comes) and then say "No thanks" and just go into a civvies apartment instead, giving fair notice of course?

I think what he was saying is that since you are posted to CFSCE for longer than one year, you actually get posted and are eligible for a cost move.  Cost moves include every reasonable cost you can imagine.  They're designed so that you don't end up paying for anything out of pocket unless it's a really unusual item.  You can look at the rules for cost moves here.

Also, what are the "Shacks" like in Kingston? Is it possible for me to bring my desktop computer (not laptop) and Monitor with me? What about my TV? (61" LED DLP... my baby) Can you get Internet access in them. Is there any privacy or do I have to be in a "room" with others? Could I have the wife (and possibly kids) come and stay over night on a weekend at all? I saw some info in other threads but nothing more recently...

If I could have my CPU with Internet and my TV there, it would make my lonely weekends much better... as I am married for 11 years and don't plan on going out and partying when I do get "some" free time...Scyping would go a long way for us...I won't have a car with me... she will have it! What exactly can you bring with you after BMQ???

Another possibility, would be to have the wife and kids stay at home until the house sold (up to 1 plus years, it could be earlier, but we have to pay a penalty if we do). They would then come to visit say once a month for a couple of days and I put them up in a Motel. (7 hour drives each way is a bit long though) 

I can't tell you too much about Kingston, but I'm willing to bet computers in the rooms are fine.  Unless they have family rooms available (which some bases have), your family wouldn't be able to stay with you.

When you referred to "we have to pay a penalty if we do", were you referring to mortgage breaking penalties?  If so, those are covered in cost moves.

 

[kratz]

After your training in Kingston (LCIS) or Halifax (NE Tech), there is a very good likelyhood of the military posting you again during your military career. As mentioned above, those moving costs will also be covered by the military.

So if you part of your trade choice is based on Kingston or Halifax during the initial trades training, be aware of the potential for having to move a few years down the road.

 

[RedMan]

When you referred to "we have to pay a penalty if we do", were you referring to mortgage breaking penalties?  If so, those are covered in cost moves.

Yes, this would be from breaking the mortgage 6 to 12 months early. Could be up to $4000! 

After your training in Kingston (LCIS) or Halifax (NE Tech), there is a very good likelyhood of the military posting you again during your military career. As mentioned above, those moving costs will also be covered by the military.

So if you part of your trade choice is based on Kingston or Halifax during the initial trades training, be aware of the potential for having to move a few years down the road.

We assume this... however, from what many people say on these boards... its still better to buy a home during that time if possible if its going to be 1 to 3 years of being there. We would rent temporarily if we had to, just don't want to waste money. If i was doing a trade that wouldn't be at the same place for a long time during training, then we would just wait until I got posted. All the TECH trades seem to have long training times at the same places.

I know I could be on PAT until I start POET, so we wouldn't do anything until POET began (unless PAT was going to be VERY long!). Is it possible to do some sort of OJT training while waiting for POET (instead of waisting it on PAT)?

If I did get semi-skilled status, I am assuming that I would NOT have to do POET. If this was the case then I would have better options.(and easier on the family)


What exactly is it like for you during trades training? What kind of free time do you get? When not in classes during the day can you go where you want or only on the weekends?

Where are the places that LCIS typically get POSTED to? I know it could be anywhere in Canada or possibly in the US,, but I was just wondering since they seem to need LCIS badly now. (recruiter said around 180).

Thanks for the info as always... keep it coming guys... the wife is reading too. Any wives have some helping info, she would love that. Any recommended boards,etc...

 

[chevalnoir]

Can't tell you about anything else, but I can tell you about the CFSCE shacks. Avoid them if possible. 4 to a room, what electronics you can have is up to your course staff. There  are some people who have big TV's, but there really isn't much space for stuff like that. Hot water has been intermittent in my building for the last couple of weeks.  You are not allowed visitors who aren't military in the buildings, period, so if your family comes to visit you'll need to rent a hotel room.

I'm having a rough go of it dealing with the garbage that goes on - unfortunately, hubby can't move at this time, and we can't afford for me to rent an apartment right now. There are all sorts of empty individual rooms in the mods on the other side of the base at a very reasonable cost - but CFSCE  students are no longer allowed to move into them. Unless you are under 25 and love to party, there really is no upside to the shacks that I can think of, and I think most of the people here who are either older or just more mature  get out as soon as they can. 

There are lots of good things about CFSCE -  I've been stuck in Kingston for close to a year now, and I've so far  been idle and bored for a total of 4 days, all of the rest of my time has been filled with useful courses or taskings. However, the shacks are defintely not on the list of positives. You'll have to move into them when you first come to CFSCE, and it can take several weeks or in some cases several months to process a memo so you can get permission to move out.  Permission is not a right, either, you'll have to convince the chain of command that  it's a good idea to let you live off base. 

I'd say the hope of having any kind of a normal family life during your first year  in the CF is rather optimistic.  On the other hand, you'll be so busy the time will fly .

They tell me it does get better......

 

[emmsmama]

I'm the wife to Redman and am wondering what the chances are of them moving family if training is 1yr. + (which both the Navy route and LCIS would have).  It seems to be very unpredictable, but if someone could give an idea of how likely they are to move family that would be appreciated.  I understand that in the forces there are deployments of course, but being away from each other for 2+ years wouldn't go over well.  Even though hubby drives me nuts sometimes, I love him dearly and wouldn't want to be away from him for that long

 

[jallam]

Hello,

I have a question regarding the SEP

Do you receive PLD while attending a civilian college such as North Island College in Campbell River?

Are there restrictions on where you can live in relation to the school?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

PLD is pretty simple.  If you are posted (key word) to an area that is identified as a PLD/TPLD area, you will receive the rate for that area.

The key word is posted.  That is where your enrolment or posting message indicates you are posted, which may be different than where you are training.

Example, you could be posted to Halifax, receive the PLD for that area, and be attached posted elsewhere in the country, but still receive PLD for the area you are posted to (my current situation).

Make sense??

 

[jallam]

Makes perfect sense, I will have to find out where I will be posted to answer this question...

Thanks for the help

 

[SeanNewman]

The cost of living in Windsor is not indicative of the rest of Ontario (or even southern Ontario for that matter).

The price of real estate in the Windsor-to-Chatham area is dirt cheap compared to east of London or north of Toronto, and not just in big cities like Ottawa.

A big problem with military communities is that housing prices have skyrocketed in the last decade (partially due to how much we get paid, especially on tour, and how military moves are free), so even in smaller towns like Petawawa or Oromocto (hence my name) prices are not the same as areas around them inside Ont and NB.

As per what the other guys have covered though, the CF does not just post you to a city with a high cost of living and hang you out to dry; they do what they can to balance it out by paying those people extra money so they can have the same lifestyle as being posted somewhere else.