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CP-140 Aurora

Baz- we are firmly in agreement. I was just pointing out that there are some hidden infrastructure costs with UAVs that often don't get accounted for.

And I try to get value for the Space Apps course I took, once upon a time...
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Good read, EITS, but my question is: should UAVs, like the MQ-4C Triton be part of our 'solution' to the multitude of tasks that may will, no doubt, arise? Or is a totally 'manned' fleet the better choice?

I think a mixed fleet (maritime air assets) with MPA as the "big hitter" is the way to go.  I think budgets and the like will determine we don't end up with what we really need, regardless of which way we go.

2030 is a long way away.  I hope we haven't left ourselves short-changed (worse than we think it is, at least).

 
Eye In The Sky said:
I think a mixed fleet (maritime air assets) with MPA as the "big hitter" is the way to go.

I agree as well.  There was an earlier comment about the backlog in Intel dissemination, but that's probably more due to how the USAF runs their operations.  I know it's different than how we (and the Aussies) did it in Afghanistan, with its positives and negatives. 

I, for one, do not support piping all Intel info to Winnipeg if the crews aren't also based there - there is something to be said about being able to physically go into the other pod and talk to the operator/analyst as necessary.
 
Aussies following USN lead:

Australia Will Purchase MQ-4C Triton Unmanned Aircraft

Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott confirmed that his country will buy MQ-4C Triton unmanned aircraft to operate alongside the eight Boeing P-8A Poseidons it plans to purchase. Abbott announced the Triton acquisition during a March 13 visit to the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) base at Edinburgh.

The government did not specify the number of Tritons it will acquire or their planned entry-into-service date, saying those details will be outlined in a pending defense white paper and decided in 2016. The acquisition requires AUD $140 million ($127 million) in new facilities, potentially involving an expansion of the existing facilities at RAAF Base Edinburgh, in South Australia, where the Triton will be based...
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/2014-03-17/australia-will-purchase-mq-4c-triton-unmanned-aircraft

Mark
Ottawa
 
Article Link

Upgrades to Aurora aircraft puts Royal Canadian Air Force on cutting edge of anti-submarine warfare

The silhouette of a nuclear-powered U.S. navy Los Angeles class attack submarine, its periscope slashing through the surface, was quickly spotted by the crew of a Royal Canadian Air Force CP-140 Aurora maritime patrol aircraft during a five-hour mission south of the Hawaiian Islands over the weekend.

Within seconds of the discovery of the kind of boat that Tom Clancy made famous in the Hunt for Red October, the Nova Scotia-based turboprop swooped down to 100 metres above the ocean. The crew dropped several dozen passive and active sonar buoys as they circled near the target on a night when those in the air and at sea had the benefit of a dazzling full moon and a placid sea.

“We went out, hunted for it, found it, tracked it and did some simulated attacking,” said Maj. Angie Thomas who helped oversee the crew working a bank of sensors and radars.

“We had a few glitches with our computers during the flight because no equipment is perfect. But we were able to overcome those as we know we can with the procedures (we have) in place and it actually makes for great training. We try to train as we fight and tonight was a perfect example of that and a great success.”

Precisely what the Auroras anti-submarine warfare (ASW) are capable of is of keen interest to the 22 navies participating in RIMPAC 2014. Two of the three Auroras that the RCAF has brought to the largest naval war games in the world have new Canadian-made Block III sensors and mission computers that may give Canada the deadliest anti-submarine warfare platform in the world.

“By leaps and bounds, we are far more capable with this aircraft,” said Warrant Officer Darren Struble as he prepared to throw a sonar buoy out of a tube that had been opened in the belly of the aircraft. “We are on the cutting edge of anti-submarine warfare.”

The difference between the old monochrome screens and the colour ones used now is that the aircrew have a lot more situational awareness, he said. However, none of the 16 personnel on board the aircraft were able to provide many details about the video game wizardry they work with because almost everything about the Auroras’ expanded capabilities is top secret.

The latest upgrades to the Auroras have greatly improved the aircraft’s intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities, the crew said. Such improvements do not come cheap.

While the possible purchase of F-35 stealth fighters and the drawn out acquisition of new helicopters for the RCAF have received far more political and media attention, Canada has quietly spent more than $1.5 billion on upgrading 14 of its 18 Auroras. The price tag includes improvements slated to extend the life of the already 30-year-old airframes for at least another 15 years.

While the Auroras’ high-tech specialty is ASW, the aircraft also carry out patrols to assert Canadian sovereignty in the High Arctic, map out routes across polar ice and tundra for Inuit Ranger patrols, monitor foreign fishing fleets on the Grand Banks and off the British Columbia coast and assist with search and rescue missions over land and sea.

Canada’s three Auroras in Hawaii lined up at a U.S. Marine Corps air station on Oahu Island beside identical U.S.-made P-3 Orion air frames flown by aircrews from Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand and the U.S.

“The change is huge. We’ve gone from being nearly obsolete to having the best of the best,” said Sgt. Francois Leveille of Montreal. “I’d put us up against a U.S. Navy P-3 any day.”

The hunt for the L.A. class sub, which was done in conjunction with several surface warships, was relatively easy because these were the first ‘baby steps’ of the month-long exercise. In a few weeks, the Canadian aircrews in Hawaii will participate in much more complicated war games scenarios where it is most unlikely that “enemy subs” will be found near the surface.

“There are a lot of ships, a lot of submarines and a lot of aircraft, so it is a very complex air space, water space and sub-surface space,” said the crew commander, Maj. Doug Publicover, who flew the mission and like everyone else on the aircraft is from CFB Greenwood N.S.

There were “a lot of different accents, a lot of different inter-operabilities where countries do not necessarily speak English as their first language. So it means communicating by radio is sometimes difficult. But we all speak a common language and that is what we are here to enhance.”

Angie Thomas, who is part of the RCAF’s Maritime Proving and Evaluation Unit, said the new state-of-the-art consoles in some of the Auroras are almost impossible to compare with those they replace “because we flex so far forward into the future.”

Having recently taken part in a NATO training exercise in Norway, the major said: “It was really amazing to see the different scenarios that we could put ourselves in, to the different weather that we could fly in and the capability that we could bring to the flight. I absolutely believe that we have one of the leading P-3 Aurora aircraft in the world for ASW to ISR to EW (electronic warfare). It is just going to become more amazing as we figure out the new tools.”

----------------------------------------

*For the record, that isn't a sonobuoy the WO is holding;  it's a SUS (Signal Underwater Sound).

** what the author calls 'sonar buoy' is actually called 'sonobuoy'.
 
To be fair, if those are the only things the journo is getting wrong, it ain't bad.
 
Well, he certainly waxed poetic too much in the first two paragraphs.

If you see a submarine periscope "slashing" through the surface, you certainly ain't seeing her "silhouette" cause she's underwater.

Unless of course, you happen to fly almost over her in daylight at the time and you are in pretty clear waters, but apparently this was a night ops, so …

Just saying :)
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Well, he certainly waxed poetic too much in the first two paragraphs.

If you see a submarine periscope "slashing" through the surface, you certainly ain't seeing her "silhouette" cause she's underwater.

Unless of course, you happen to fly almost over her in daylight at the time and you are in pretty clear waters, but apparently this was a night ops, so …

Just saying :)

Unless you think the entire sail is the 'scope  ;D  which would make the 'feather'...more...pronounced?  >:D
 
Thought it was worth posting a pic of what you are likely to see on the surface if you are workin' a nuc  ;D
 
Eye In The Sky said:
Thought it was worth posting a pic of what you are likely to see on the surface if you are workin' a nuc  ;D

I see the LA v. Boomer race regatta is on again  :nod:
 
So as the US retires it's P-3 Orion's would some of those airframes be worth upgrading to keep our strength up?
 
Eye In The Sky said:
Unless you think the entire sail is the 'scope  ;D  which would make the 'feather'...more...pronounced?  >:D

Nice pics Eye in the Sky.

The top one makes my point.

The bottom one, however, would not be much of a challenge for an Aurora to spot, or for anyone flying in an old Piper for that matter  :)
 
Colin P said:
So as the US retires it's P-3 Orion's would some of those airframes be worth upgrading to keep our strength up?

I'm not a SME on the area, just an end-user, but I'll throw this in for thought:

- those airframes likely have tons of hours on them.  While not certain, I'd suspect most of the ones being put to pasture are close to, if not, maxed out on hours. 

- the internal layout is different than ours, and I'd hate to guess at the $ it would cost to 'Canadianize' an old P3 to a CP-140M layout.  Then you'd have to pay for the "modernized" stuff to go in.  If we didn't have the $ to do it to all the current airframes, I'm not sure where the money (and extra money...) would come to take an old US Navy P-3 and turn it into a CP-140M. 

Even if we had more, we'd need the YFR (flying hours) to put them in the air...YFR is on a 'less, not more' trend presently.

Seems like a question better answered by AERE and 500 series guys on the conversion stuff, I'm just a button-smasher, but that's my quick  :2c:
 
While I can't tell if this is part of "the" upgrade, this certainly sounds like an upgrade of some sort ....
The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Canada for AN/AAQ-24(V) Large Aircraft Infrared Countermeasures (LAIRCM) systems and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $225 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on August 12, 2014.

The Government of Canada has requested the sale of 6 AN/AAQ-24(V) Large Aircraft Infrared Countermeasures (LAIRCM) Systems for the CP-140 Long Range Patrol Aircraft. The sale consists of 22 T-2465 AN/AAQ-24(V) Guardian Laser Transmitter Assemblies (GLTA), 52 R-2675 AN/AAQ-24(V) Next Generation Missile Approach Warning Sensors (MAWS), and 16 CP-2793 AN/AAQ-24(V) LAIRCM System Processors, support and test equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistical and program support. The estimated cost is $225 million.

The proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by improving the security of a NATO ally that has been, and continues to be, an important force for political stability and economic progress in North America.

Canada will use this capability to enhance the survivability of its CP-140 Long Range Patrol aircraft and crew. The LAIRCM system will provide Canada’s CP-140 fleet with defensive countermeasures against enemy attacks. Canada, which already has AN/AAQ-24(V) systems as part of its C-17 fleet, will have no difficulty absorbing these additional systems ....
 
This is, basically, the "Block 4" portion of AIMP.

6 systems.  More than 6 aircraft.  ^-^
 
Eye In The Sky said:
This is, basically, the "Block 4" portion of AIMP.

6 systems.  More than 6 aircraft.  ^-^

If you look at the AN/AAQ-24(V) systems assigned for the C-17, C-130J and CH-147F, you will see that none of those fleets have 100% fitment of DIRCM. 

They each have enough to fulfil the operational requirement.


Regards
G2G
 
Eye In The Sky said:
Thought it was worth posting a pic of what you are likely to see on the surface if you are workin' a nuc  ;D

Nice ocean, smooth sailing.

For ASW, is it not what you can "see" (and I use that term as a layman's for "detect" at different spectrum levels)  below the surface that really, really counts? 
 
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