DAG'ing (red, green, res vs reg - merged)

[Sigs Pig]

recceguy, you seemed to have missed a spot....

"Grandiose delusions are distinct from grandiosity, in that the sufferer does not have insight into his loss of touch with reality. An individual is convinced he has special powers, talents, or abilities. Sometimes, the individual may actually believe he or she is a famous person or character (for example, Napoleon).

Grandiose delusions or delusions of grandeur are principally a subtype of delusional disorder but could possibly feature as a symptom of schizophrenia and manic episodes of bipolar disorder. Grandiose delusions are characterized by fantastical beliefs that one is famous, omnipotent, or otherwise very powerful. The delusions are generally fantastic, often with a supernatural, science-fictional, or religious bent. In colloquial usage, one who overestimates one's own abilities, talents, stature or situation is sometimes said to have 'delusions of grandeur'. This is generally due to excessive pride, rather than any actual delusions."

ME

 

[Brasidas]

Don't flatter yourself, this is not a reserves problem. This is a CF-wide problem. Guys in my former unit were having to redo-items on their PRV that were current, just because they were deploying on an operation.

There is a difference between a reservist who spends half their training time updating their IBTS and other DAG checks in the box.

The crown isn't obligated to not waste either a reg or a reservist's time, but when your unit's training year is structured around getting this done and it is so frequently disregarded, then change the requirement to the unit's training year or change the requirement to have buddy do it all over again.

The unit's spending a more limited proportion of its resources than a reg force unit, and the member's spending more of his limited training time on it. The waste has more of an impact on the reserve.

 

[Haggis]

Good points - if on the PRV sheet it says current....why is the CoC not following it?

IMO - Egos of some of the CoC - "they didn't do it under MY watch, therefore they SHALL do it again"

There is also the dynamic of trust.  "We can't trust the units to do it right" coupled with "We have to verify (insert DAG PRV item here) so we may as well do it all to be sure."

Huge waste of time, money and effort.  But, the risk adverse chain of command doesn't want to chance that someone deploys and then is killed/injured/RTU due to a DAG/PRV shortfall.


And can we PLEASE stay on topic?  Remember, a lot of big shiny heads read Army.ca and this thread has a lot of potential to bring up good solutions for the Armoury floor.

 

[PuckChaser]

I think Rheo hit the nail on the head for some of the major issues with the PRV, outside agencies. When I was a reservist it was difficult to get health services to look at you as a Cl A, or even Cl B under 180 days. Maybe its changed now, but it was sure bad back then. I don't know where you're at, Rheo, but every 5 years you should be getting a medical done regardless of class of service.

How hard would it be to get an MO/PA with a medtech in for a Thursday night and have them complete the annual medical PRV? Its just a questionnaire and a 5 minute interview. If the member did have any problems, they could be encouraged to see their civilian doctor and DAG'd yellow. Either that, or each year a Cl A member would be responsible to bring in a note from their dentist/doctor stating they were medically/dentally fit from their perspective. Reimburse the cost of the note but it would reduce the strain on the health services system somewhat.

 

[Sigs Pig]

And can we PLEASE stay on topic?

Sorry about that earlier....

I tried my best to deploy with TF3-09 and as a lifer civilian, I had a DIFFICULT time sitting around waiting for training, 1400km from home. While the members living close to Ed were home EVERY weekend.
In three months I got to fire the M72 (first time ever)... and qualify PWT2 on the C7 (which I had done to PWT3 back at my Unit). With other problems at home I sadly backed out and had to RTU. That was the extent of my training and had six more months to go! This was my tax dollars at work.

If I would have been kept busy with training, I would not have minded redoing all of the check boxes required, but my mind was always going back home....

ME

Added: I have never had a problem getting a CF medical, it is done every two (or three?) years, but maybe with my advanced years they respect my request more? For the DAG, the CF dentist was a difficult one to see.

 

[BDTyre]

As others have stated here, the biggest issue I encountered when going through the DAG process was repetition. I was lucky and only had to redo a few things, such as weapons handling (which was run quite poorly and almost worked on the honour system). As my BFT was current, I only did it once on pre-deployment - others in the platoon did it 5 times, mostly because there was no other training planned. I never did the PWT3 on pre-deployment, and it expired before I deployed (by about two weeks), but no one seemed terribly concerned.

 

[PuckChaser]

The predeployment training process is shortening quite a bit. I don't know whether its a product of the lower(?) intensity in Kabul or lessons learned, but I'm heading to Gagetown for Op Attention Roto 1 for approx 1 month before Christmas, month of leave over Christmas, a month after Christmas and then embarkation leave with a deployment timeframe near the end of February. My first tour involved predeployment training from January to August, thankfully as I was deploying from a specialist unit we were exempt from being attach posted to Valcartier for 8 months before a 7 and a half month tour.

 

[BDTyre]

That is drastically shortened, but perhaps it has to do with your role over there? We sent a Sgt on Roto 0 and a Cpl on the MCU for KAF. I believe they both began predeployment last October and they deployed the same date in May. We had another Cpl who was slated to leave in May as a driver/support on Roto 0 and he only just hit the ground in the last week - he was kept in Edmonton the time in between.

 

[Rheostatic]

I think Rheo hit the nail on the head for some of the major issues with the PRV, outside agencies. When I was a reservist it was difficult to get health services to look at you as a Cl A, or even Cl B under 180 days. Maybe its changed now, but it was sure bad back then. I don't know where you're at, Rheo, but every 5 years you should be getting a medical done regardless of class of service.

I thought as much and I'd like to find a ref to back it up.

On Cl A, dental is "not applicable" on the Personal Readiness Verification, so it's grey rather than green/yellow/red. If, as the PA told me, I can't get a new medical without an upcoming promotion or deployment, why should it be flagged red?

 

[Redeye]

The predeployment training process is shortening quite a bit. I don't know whether its a product of the lower(?) intensity in Kabul or lessons learned, but I'm heading to Gagetown for Op Attention Roto 1 for approx 1 month before Christmas, month of leave over Christmas, a month after Christmas and then embarkation leave with a deployment timeframe near the end of February. My first tour involved predeployment training from January to August, thankfully as I was deploying from a specialist unit we were exempt from being attach posted to Valcartier for 8 months before a 7 and a half month tour.

The initial plan for some Op Attention folks was the 18 day PSTC course - looking at the info in my JIs and some of the correspondance it seems that it was decided relatively last minute to shift all sorts of things around and add a lot more to work up - convoy drills were the only thing specifically mentioned though.

I didn't have too much trouble getting my PRV stuff done fairly quickly, I've just got a few minor things to look after of my own before I go. I do love that we have to have signed off that our PWT and BFT are current, even though we'll be doing it all in Gagetown - repeatedly, to be sure.

My biggest trick is going to be figuring out what the hell to do with myself with that month over Christmas!

 

[Rheostatic]

I had to quote this. I'm speechless...

No, we're all ACISS now. Actually, if you check EMAA under Readiness Level you'll notice every SigOp, LCIS and Lineman is now DAGed Red as we do not belong to a valid MOS. Comical considering all the heartache they've gone through so far....

 

[CountDC]

Can't recall it off the top but I am sure there was and most likely still is a regulation stating the reservist is to have a medical done every 5 years. If I get a chance I will search for it - found one back in the 90's when employed at a medical unit.

as a side on this - one of the problems with getting medicals done for cl a reservists is that they have to be paid for their time and most units do not want to foot that bill for Johnny to go play with the reg f.  You are looking at up to 2 days pay for every member of the unit to complete a medical - the CO's look at that as another training weekend lost.

I know some will say I would do it without getting paid but the CO's can not count on every member of the unit doing that plus I am sure there is some legal issue in there too. 

 

[dapaterson]

Can't recall it off the top but I am sure there was and most likely still is a regulation stating the reservist is to have a medical done every 5 years. If I get a chance I will search for it - found one back in the 90's when employed at a medical unit.

as a side on this - one of the problems with getting medicals done for cl a reservists is that they have to be paid for their time and most units do not want to foot that bill for Johnny to go play with the reg f.  You are looking at up to 2 days pay for every member of the unit to complete a medical - the CO's look at that as another training weekend lost.

I know some will say I would do it without getting paid but the CO's can not count on every member of the unit doing that plus I am sure there is some legal issue in there too.

CF Medical standard is every 5 years for those under 40, every 2 years for those over.  Different clinics provide different levles of support to the Reserve Force, though - it seems to be a local option thing, unfortunately.  The Ombudsman's report on Reserved Care seems to have made very little difference.

 

[Rheostatic]

Can't recall it off the top but I am sure there was and most likely still is a regulation stating the reservist is to have a medical done every 5 years. If I get a chance I will search for it

I would appreciate that, thanks.

one of the problems with getting medicals done for cl a reservists is that they have to be paid for their time and most units do not want to foot that bill for Johnny to go play with the reg f.  You are looking at up to 2 days pay for every member of the unit to complete a medical - the CO's look at that as another training weekend lost.

I know some will say I would do it without getting paid but the CO's can not count on every member of the unit doing that plus I am sure there is some legal issue in there too.

In my case it wasn't the unit that prevented my medical, it was Health Services. I actually completed the medical part 1, and during Part 2, the PA said "Oh, you're Cl A? Goodbye!". For what it's worth I went on my own time. I don't agree with your estimate of 2 days pay, more like a half day every 5 years, but you're right in that we can't require members to do this without signing in.

 

[CountDC]

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/20-04-eng.asp  CF Mil Pers Instr 20/04 Para 2.6 is a start point, especially the note at the end:

Note- Canadian Forces Health Services (CFHS) shall provide all medical and dental evaluations and treatment required to confirm and ensure serving members' fitness for continued service in the CF.

Still looking for more though when I have time.

Note I did say up to 2 days pay and that is based on my experiences.  Part 1 and Part 2 are done on different days.  Depending on the day it is possible that the member could reach the 6 hours mark to turn it into a full day or they may be told their appointment is being rebooked to another day.  My own experience in Halifax for part 1 once was I had to be there at 0700 hrs for sign in and then wait.  I Did not leave until almost 1330 hrs.  That same day they asked for volunteers to rebook their appointments.  Turns out medics get sick too.

When I worked with the reserves I did send some members for medicals in Halifax.  If there was anything requiring treatment the member was referred to their own doctor.  At the time the hospital attitude was the same - all military are required to have up to date medicals.

 

[rocksteady]

I would like to know what is supposed to happen when you DAG Red for a tour and where the policies for such things can be located. I've heard different things that you can't go on career courses or taskings for a year but I would like to see what is on paper for all things DAG Red.  If someone could point me in the right direction that would be appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[DAA]

I would like to know what is supposed to happen when you DAG Red for a tour and where the policies for such things can be located. I've heard different things that you can't go on career courses or taskings for a year but I would like to see what is on paper for all things DAG Red.  If someone could point me in the right direction that would be appreciated.

For overseas deployments, the screening is conducted IAW the CDIO's.  In the case of a Regular Force member being screened "DAG RED", Unit's conducting the screening are suppose to notify D Mil C (ie; CM) when a DAG RED occurs and the circumstances surrounding the reason for this.  In cases where the DAG RED is considered to be a "chronic" issue, then the matter is to be referred to DMCA to initiate an AR (Administrative Review) which could result in administrative action being taken against the individual.  Nevertheless, there is nothing preventing a CO at Unit Level, from implementing Remedial Measures should they be warranted.

CDIO 1000 Series - Section Three - Personnel Administration

 

[rocksteady]

Thank you DAA.  I will check out the CDIOs which is a first for me.

 

[Ostrozac]

In practice, it very much depends on the scenario.

One member could DAG Red for becoming pregnant, another member could have a serious dental problem, and a third member could be non deployable because they are facing civilian criminal charges.

Unlikely that there would be any repercussions at all for the first two. The third member has bigger issues.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Replace Padre with Social Worker. Additionally if you have a spouse they have to come with you or be reachable by phone during your DAG appointment or the SW will not sign off and your Medical DAG portion halts right then and there.

404s, not a hard and fast requirement to DAG green for all mbrs.

ID and passport must be valid for a certain amount of time past your return date.  6 months is a good base for this. 

Lastly, all identified mission specific pre-deployment trg must be complete and Clothing Stores has to sign off you have all your kit or it is ordered and will arrive before your chaulk date.