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Deconstructing "Progressive " thought

Technoviking said:
Now, remembering that I have no dog in this fight, could you provide some examples of countries that have these traits?

Scandinavian countries would come to top of mind, as well as Germany, The Netherlands,  and France.  There aare inherent challenges (France in particular provides ready examples), but generally speaking they're good examples.  It's important to note that you have to look at what the systems have been historically, vice what the current "government of the day" is.
 
Brad Sallows said:
My point is that the well-being originates with the people because they are industrious and there is an essential willingness to extend trust and cooperation beyond the boundaries of the family/clan/tribe; they would be prosperous under any system of government which does not treat people brutally.  I am confident the system breaks down when there enters into the citizenry any significant number of people who eschew contribution and effort, exploit benefits, and adopt the position of "my race/religion/ethnicity before theirs".

To the points in both of your posts - there's a good argument to be made that the nature of the structure of politics of social democracies could be a cultural product - in fact most systems of governance and economic structures are.  There's a reason we can't "export" democracy effectively to a place like Afghanistan or any of a myriad of other states - the civil society that allows it to function is something that developed and evolved over centuries in Europe primarily.  Likewise, feudal/tribal societies evolved elsewhere and have strong roots.

That being said, most people, I'd think, are possessed of at least a certain degree of altruism and concern for community which makes us pure greed repulsive and was the basis of the sort of "social contract" we all accept that we have a responsibility to contribute to our communities.  The argument that seems to flow from that is that if that were purely true, a government wouldn't be required to make it happen - but the reality in my view is that there are some whose greed will allow them to do things that in the absence of some manner of controls would be too much of a detriment to us all, and thus we accept some manner of governance to protect our own interests.
 
Technoviking said:
I highly doubt that it's the government du jour that causes a high rating on the HDI.  I'm quite certain that there is more at play.  Australia and Canada are two prime examples in this list, at 3 and 4 resepectively.
Absolutely it's not the government du jour - you'll find that that all those states tend to have a long history of centre/centre-left governments, the systems in place (like education, health care, etc) have been in place for a long time surely, they'd have to have been.  I'd also say that historically while Canada hasn't been quite as "left" as a country like Sweden, we certainly, as a nation, lean a little that way.

Technoviking said:
In any event, my opinion is that Big Government is not a good thing.  As stated previously by others, and with more more eloquence than I could offer, Social Democracy is a silly thing.

In my opinion government being large for the sake of being large isn't good - an efficient, effective government is what I want - one that provides for a solid economy, but also promotes social good.  That's why things like universal healthcare, accessible education, and reasonable social safety net are important to me - I tend to consider myself a centrist or even a "Red Tory".

Someone else posted a link elsewhere to Carol Goar's insightful piece on why the Conservatives did so well, the link is here: http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/989087--goar-why-the-poor-cast-votes-for-conservatives - it makes a lot of sense.  Most people who struggle with poverty do indeed want to lift themselves out and want the focus on that - not on simply trying to make poverty more "comfortable".  It's worth a read.
 
A country can pay for whatever it (its people, actually) wants: education, health care, tanks and guns, social welfare, highways and subways ... for a while, anyway.

There are, essentially no really successful models - the Americans started with a pretty pure, tooth and claw, capitalist system but they now have a thoroughgoing welfare state which they cannot afford. Singapore is still a capitalist bastion of private property but it, too, has a very advanced and very expensive welfare state - so far they can afford it but it is not clear to me that many other countries could. Sweden led the world in social programmes, for a while, but it had to back away because it could no longer afford everything the people wanted.

So did Canada, back in the 1960s. Mike Pearson wanted to, finally, create a welfare state but he knew he needed money for it - the primary aim of Paul Hellyer's integration/unification fiasco was to contain the growth of the defence budget - Canada could not afford St Laurent style internationalism and Pearson and Paul Martin Sr's dream of a welfare state. Pierre Trudeau plunged us into a downward spiral of deficits and debts to pay for an ever expanding family of entitlements.

Everything costs money; everything governments do costs us real money - twice: once in the taxes we pay to pay for whatever services the governments provide (troops in Afghanistan, health care, roads and sewers, and so on) and once again in lost 'opportunities,' the things we might have done with that money. How much we are willing to pay determines how much we get from each level of government.
 
dinicthus said:
I realized, while travelling in Central America, that Canada is a great place, BECAUSE of the Canadians historically making it a great place.

Hence the part about "and have long-established habits of hard work and self-sufficiency".
 
Nemo888 said:
Are you saying that people are naturally social and cooperative? ...

Do you think multinational corporations would fall into the first group or the second? If a CEO of a corporation took the first stance they could be put in prison for failing to ensure shareholder rights. But by ruthlessly following the second get a multimillion dollar bonus. I like to think that limited liability may have been a huge error allowing these immortal entities, soulless by design, to rule our destinies.

I worked for a major corporation before I joined the Army. If you want to feel soulless and expendable that is where you want to work. Love the Army by comparison. Treated much more humanely.

People are certainly naturally cooperative, because nature seems to apply at least enough pressure that people inevitably fall into cooperative bands and work up from there.  People are certainly naturally social, because few choose to be true loners.

Corporations are not naturally "social", but CEOs are not hanged for exercising social initiatives.  The corporation I work for pursues charitable donation, public service, and "green" initiatives - means other than pure delivery of services - to establish itself as a preferred brand.

Limited liability is an immense social good.  Many fewer people would take investment risks if their entire personal wealth was always at stake.  Corporations are an immense social good.  Many fewer people would be able to exercise their talents at advanced levels of specialization in the absence of corporations.  Our entire base of technology and services would be lagging well behind its current state.
 
And now the concept of fair trade is called into question. The following article from today's National Post is reproduced under the Fair Dealings provision of the Copyright Act.

Lawrence Solomon: Fair-trade coffee producers often end up poorer
May 14, 2011 – 8:00 AM ET | Last Updated: May 14, 2011 10:37 AM ET


Coffee is one of our guilty pleasures, and not only because of the calories that can be packed into a double latte. Many of us feel guilty that our pleasure is coming at the expense of the Third World coffee farmer, so much so that we gladly pay more for “fair-trade” coffee, which certifies that farmers receive more revenue for their crop.

Saturday, on World Fair Trade Day, we have something else to feel guilty about. That fair-trade cup of coffee we savour may not only fail to ease the lot of poor farmers, it may actually help to impoverish them, according to a study out recently from Germany’s University of Hohenheim.

The study, which followed hundreds of Nicaraguan coffee farmers over a decade, concluded that farmers producing for the fair-trade market “are more often found below the absolute poverty line than conventional producers.

“Over a period of 10 years, our analysis shows that organic and organic-fair trade farmers have become poorer relative to conventional producers.”

These findings do not surprise me. I speak as someone who has had contact with various Third World producers in my capacity as president of Green Beanery, a company I founded seven years ago to raise funds for Energy Probe Research Foundation, a federal charity that I manage. Green Beanery sells more varieties of coffee, including fair trade and organic coffees, than any other company in Canada, giving me occasion to witness the nature of the fair-trade business, and hear first hand of its impact on small producers that supply us.

The fair-trade business is filled with contradictions.

For starters, it discriminates against the very poorest of the world’s coffee farmers, most of whom are African, by requiring them to pay high certification fees. These fees — one of the factors that the German study cites as contributing to the farmers’ impoverishment — are especially perverse, given that the majority of Third World farmers are not only too poor to pay the certification fees, they’re also too poor to pay for the fertilizers and the pesticides that would disqualify coffee as certified organic.

Their coffee is organic by default, but because the farmers can’t provide the fees that certification agencies demand to fly down and check on their operations, the farmers lose out on the premium prices that can be fetched by certified coffee.

To add to the perversity, it’s an open secret that the certification process is lax and almost impossible to police, making it little more than a high-priced honour system. Although the certification associations have done their best to tighten flaws in the system, farmers and middlemen who want to get around the system inevitably do, bagging unearned profits. Those who remain scrupulous and follow the onerous and costly regulations — another source of inefficiency the German study notes in its analysis — lose out.

The study, published in the journal Ecological Economics, recommends that policy “move from certification schemes to investments in the farm and business management skills of producers” — in other words, phase out the certification fees.

Most merchants of certified coffees are aware of these contradictions, but most won’t be aware of other problems in the certification business. For Third World farmers to qualify as fair-trade producers, and thus obtain higher prices for their coffee, farmers must join co-operatives. In some Third World societies, farmers readily accept the compromises of communal enterprise. In others, they balk. In patriarchal African societies, for example, the small coffee farm is the family business, its management a source of pride to the male head of the household. Joining a co-operative, and being told when and what and how to plant entails loss of dignity.

The contradictions are acknowledged even by many fair-trade merchants, who often refer instead to anecdotal reports of less quantifiable benefits such as better health care or schooling in a village or even, most tangentially, improved habitat for birds or wildlife.

The contradictions extend to consumers of coffee in the West. Several years ago, I received a call from a church in Kingston, inquiring whether Green Beanery could supply it with freshly roasted fair-trade coffee on a weekly basis.

Along the way, the church officer mentioned that the parishioners wanted to do what they could to help poor farmers in the Third World. I replied that I’d be happy to supply the church, but I also advised him that fair-trade coffee would not help the poorest of farmers — these smallholders are actually hurt when Western consumers forsake them for coffee produced by better-off farmers who can afford the certification fees.

I also mentioned that various coffees produced by small farmers in some of the neediest parts of Africa would taste superb while costing the church less, allowing it to spend the difference on some other worthwhile cause.

After a long pause, the church official replied something like: “I still think the parishioners would feel better knowing that they were drinking fair-trade coffee.”

Some believe that certified coffee is superior in some way. But it is not always so. The small-scale farms whose local ecologies produce distinctive, niche coffee beans can’t operate on a scale that would justify official certification. As the German study notes, “Certified coffees have distinct production and marketing systems with different associated costs than the conventional system.”

Neither is certified coffee different at all. In fact, at Green Beanery we have received bags of coffee, some labelled fair trade, some not, grown on the very same farm and identical in every respect. The fair-trade certified farmer himself can’t tell which beans will be sold as fair trade and which not — that decision is made by the higher-ups.

Because the fair-trade associations are intent on keeping the price of fair-trade coffee up, they limit the supply of coffee that can be labelled as certified. To the certified farmer’s chagrin, most of his fair-trade certified crop could end up being sold as uncertified conventional coffee.

And in this well-intentioned price-fixing game, the fair-trade farmer is the pawn and the joke is on the customer.
 
Everything politically correct, green, fair trade, etc. is a business.  David Suzuki is a businessman as are the Greenpeace etc. people.  While they may judge themselves to be morally superior, they are all simply flogging their product.  Al Gore, while not profiting from inventing the internet 8), might end up being among the first green billionaires.
 
Brad Sallows said:
Hence the part about "and have long-established habits of hard work and self-sufficiency".

Interestingly, my observation spending a whole lot of time in Central America - in Costa Rica in particular, was that wealth indeed doesn't make people happy - where I spent a lot of time there was in a small town in the southern part of the country, mainly agricultural, coffee plantations being probably the main business but also a variety of orchards and so on.  What I discovered there is that what they didn't have in material wealth, they made up for in their sense of community and the amount of time and effort they put into doing things together.

Costa Rica in particular has an interesting history though - following a civil war in 1948 they decided to abolish their military altogether and plow the savings into a universal healthcare system and education, with the result being that they've lived in peace since, and generally enjoyed a better standard of living than their neighbours.  I'm reasonably certain that they're fairly well up on the HDI for the region.  They certainly seem to be a lot happier than a lot of people I know of much more wealth here.

The fair trade argument and social responsibility - now that's interesting stuff, but I'll have to come back to it I suppose...
 
Redeye said:
Interestingly, my observation spending a whole lot of time in Central America - in Costa Rica in particular, was that wealth indeed doesn't make people happy - where I spent a lot of time there was in a small town in the southern part of the country, mainly agricultural, coffee plantations being probably the main business but also a variety of orchards and so on.  What I discovered there is that what they didn't have in material wealth, they made up for in their sense of community and the amount of time and effort they put into doing things together.

Than I guess you're against the NDP's plan to tax the rich more and give it to the poor.... You wouldn't want to make all the poor people in Canada miserable by giving them money.  That's the perfect argument against the NDPs desire to create a "nanny state".  Allow the community to take responsibility over it's own development... empower the people to create for themselves the reality they want, instead of having a socialist goverment decide it's norms. 
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
Than I guess you're against the NDP's plan to tax the rich more and give it to the poor.... You wouldn't want to make all the poor people in Canada miserable by giving them money.  That's the perfect argument against the NDPs desire to create a "nanny state".  Allow the community to take responsibility over it's own development... empower the people to create for themselves the reality they want, instead of having a socialist goverment decide it's norms.

It shouldn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out I'm not a fan of much of anything the NDP says.  I don't think taxation should be punitive, there's nothing wrong with being rich or enjoying the fruits of one's labours, but at the same time, it's also not unreasonable to suggest that the wealthiest need to pay a fair share of tax.  Of course, I like consumption taxes because for the most part they tend to be fairest and capture a good deal of revenue from the wealthiest while being difficult to avoid and not onerous.

A good social safety net is of course important, but it shouldn't provide for anything more than a basic existence, however, it also must provide the support necessarily to enable people to get off the system and out of poverty - which is why we need to ensure we provide for good education, good healthcare, and opportunities to help people succeed.  What I'd hate to see is a system like our neighbours to the south have where poverty has become endemic and generational, and the prospects for the average person who finds themselves down on their luck are very poor indeed.  Sure, every now and there's some great success story of someone pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, but they're still rare exceptions.  When public education erodes to the point that you've got massive swathes of the population functionally illiterate, and unable to get good jobs, then you've set conditions for a very grim reality indeed.
 
Redeye said:
It shouldn't take a rocket surgeon

Nice quote Ricky! *lol*.

But in all seriousness, I concur in that the point of social security is to provide a basic existence.  Same as a pension system.  What I fear is the creation of a European type socialist state, as these have proven to be utterly unsustainable.  I believe we would be better to work on the development and strengthening of the middle class, but not at the expense of the richest of Canadians.  After all, it's THEIR money that drives business and trade development, and they are the ones who take the risks in the economy. 

That said, a large percentage of Canadians don't pay any tax, so a consumption tax COULD provide a way of ensuring that ALL Canadians contribute to Canadian society.
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
Nice quote Ricky! *lol*.

Does he say that?  I'm not a huge TPB fan - but when I was on Phase III most of our nicknames, codewords, etc were built around TPB.  I picked that up many years ago from my father.

Bird_Gunner45 said:
But in all seriousness, I concur in that the point of social security is to provide a basic existence.  Same as a pension system.  What I fear is the creation of a European type socialist state, as these have proven to be utterly unsustainable.  I believe we would be better to work on the development and strengthening of the middle class, but not at the expense of the richest of Canadians.  After all, it's THEIR money that drives business and trade development, and they are the ones who take the risks in the economy. 

I don't think we're likely to see any appetite to construct a European style state - Canadians aren't that left leaning I don't think.  However, I disagree with your second statement.  I think the middle class likely is the main driver of the economy - if you look, for example, at our neighbours to the south, pandering to the interests of the richest hasn't gotten them anywhere, and the middle class is watching their standard of living erode.  In fact, what seems to have happened is an acceleration of concentration of wealth in the hands of the few, the destruction of the middle class, and the creation of a sort of underclass I fear could become a permanent, with poverty becoming generational.  If you don't have a strong middle class who are consumers and can afford to live comfortably rather than subsist, you don't really have the basis of a strong economy.

Bird_Gunner45 said:
That said, a large percentage of Canadians don't pay any tax, so a consumption tax COULD provide a way of ensuring that ALL Canadians contribute to Canadian society.

Really?  Like who?  I don't think you could find a single Canadian who doesn't pay any tax.  Find me a single Canadian who never smokes, drinks, or buys anything that's not basic essentials and I'll be pretty impressed.
 
Redeye said:
  In fact, what seems to have happened is an acceleration of concentration of wealth in the hands of the few, the destruction of the middle class, and the creation of a sort of underclass I fear could become a permanent, with poverty becoming generational.

From 1921:

The rich get rich and the poor get children
In the meantime
In the between time
Ain't we got fun.

I's funny that the rich don't have it all by now.  I suspect little has changed over time in the US.  Like Canada it has a multi-generational underclass and a thriving middle class.  It's interesting how the rhetoric doesn't change as everyone gets wealthier.
 
Dennis Ruhl said:
From 1921:

The rich get rich and the poor get children
In the meantime
In the between time
Ain't we got fun.

I's funny that the rich don't have it all by now.  I suspect little has changed over time in the US.  Like Canada it has a multi-generational underclass and a thriving middle class.  It's interesting how the rhetoric doesn't change as everyone gets wealthier.

The middle class in the USA is hardly thriving now - it's seen sharp unemployment, a protracted recession, and there's little good on the horizon.  Should any real inflation take hold in the USA it'll get worse, too.  The recession impacts the middle class most, I'd suspect, because the impact of drops in income for them is more drastic - they stop buying as much because they don't have the wealth to rely on, which drops aggregate demand in the economy and makes the recession worse potentially absent some kind of stimulative intervention (whether fiscal or monetary).  Worse still in the USA, most people's main asset is their home, and it's often heavily leveraged - to say nothing of having dropped substantially in value in the last couple of years.

The best measurement of income inequality is called the Gini Coefficient.  The higher the coefficient, the higher the income disparity/inequality.  It's been rising steadily in the USA.  Interestingly, enough, in the 1920s it was almost as high as it is now, and it dropped during the Great Depression.  It stayed relatively flat through the 1970s before starting to grow in the 1980s.  It peaked in 2006 at 0.47, dipped, and then has started to rise again.  In 2008 it stood at 0.468.  In Canada, it sits in the low 30s, having peaked the early 1990s, dropped during that recession, and stayed level since.  Most of Western Europe seems similar.  The Gini Coefficient has some problems in measurement but still is a decent approximator.  There's also the UN Poverty Index - but I can't find a ready source to look at trend movement in the USA - but I suspect it's also been increasing.
 
Baden  Guy said:
And this is the economy you recommend investing in?  :)

Done cautiously, yes. There's lots of money being made - but you have to be pretty careful.  The worst market damage has done and been mostly recovered from - people who invested aggressively in 2009 did pretty well for themselves.

I think there's still prospects for a slow recovery in the USA, and frankly, in the rest of the world there's lots of money to be made.
 
Redeye said:
Really?  Like who?  I don't think you could find a single Canadian who doesn't pay any tax.  Find me a single Canadian who never smokes, drinks, or buys anything that's not basic essentials and I'll be pretty impressed.

Approx 33% of adults working will pay no INCOME tax, which is what was meant, and 40% of Canadians pay none at all (for varying reasons which are intuitive, and dont require debating). 

Income taxes is a terrible means of creating anything resembling an equitable taxation system.  Corporate taxation has even less utility, as, mentioned earlier in one of the threads, corporate income tax is essentially paid for by the people who buy products, ie- the consumer.
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
Approx 33% of adults working will pay no INCOME tax, which is what was meant, and 40% of Canadians pay none at all (for varying reasons which are intuitive, and dont require debating). 

Income taxes is a terrible means of creating anything resembling an equitable taxation system.  Corporate taxation has even less utility, as, mentioned earlier in one of the threads, corporate income tax is essentially paid for by the people who buy products, ie- the consumer.

Intuitive, how so?  I find it highly unlikely - everyone winds up paying sales taxes, excise taxes in some form, etc.  I do agree about corporate taxes, they're essentially meaningless and the tax burden can be shifted elsewhere.  As for your "33%" claim, cite a source, because I don't see that being all that likely.
 
Redeye said:
As for your "33%" claim, cite a source, because I don't see that being all that likely.

It's what I do.  33% of adults paying no income tax sounds reasonable.  About half of retired people pay none plus non-working spouses, students, and anyone making under about $12,000 per annum and there are a whack of those.  A stereotypical single mother with 2 kids earning under about $25 grand pays no tax.
 
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