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Deconstructing "Progressive " thought

Kirkhill said:
...
Is Beijing  Mecca or Istanbul?


It is neither; the culture that Beijing represents for us is far, far older and infinitely more sophisticated and enlightened than anything ever imagined in Mecca or Istanbul, even when the later was Constantinople and the capital of Byzantium and then the caliphate.
 
How do you see the role of the Turkic horsemen, which I see as analogous to the Sea Beggars / Corsairs, in the development of the trading emporium that is Beijing?

I guess another way I could ask the question is: Is Beijing the centre of Han culture or is it the interface between Han and Turkic culture (And I use the Turkic reference extremely broadly to embrace all the horse nomads of the steppes).
 
Those nomadic Northern horsemen were, actually, a greater agent of change than were/are the Chinese, themselves.

Left to their own devices the Han Chinese would have preferred to hunker down behind their walls and pursue their own, sui generis cultural pursuits. But the nomads were having none of it; they, too, wanted the "fat of the land" and they pried open both China and the West - what we now know as Russia and the Near East - to each other. The Chinese were not, until midway through the 15th century, opposed to foreign trade - they needed the gold to pay the lean, dry nomads to stay away from their fat, green valleys. But isolationism was never far from the surface in China and many officials were worried that the cost of maintaining (especially maritime) trade routes was greater than the return.

The timely (for us) death of Timur and the consequential upset amongst the Mongols left the great Golden Horde camped in Russia and, eventually Babur used it to conquer Central Asia and set the stage for one, final, thrust into fat, green Europe. Babur gave us the 'modern' Muslim world - a medieval Arabic culture and religion grafted onto a militant Asian imperialist movement.



Edit: typo/punctuation
 
Brad Sallows said:
>Srebenica ring a bell?

Yes.  Is it your contention that it is representative of a widespread doctrine of Christianity?

Nope.  As originally mentioned, it is my contention that genocide and killing in the name of religion is not merely a muslim reality.  Christians, were, are, and will continue to be just as likely to do these things as muslims. 
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
Nope.  As originally mentioned, it is my contention that genocide and killing in the name of religion is not merely a muslim reality.  Christians, were, are, and will continue to be just as likely to do these things as muslims.

Some religions actively encourage genocide, like in the Koran. Some are completely steadfast against war and murder, like Buddhism. There has never been a Buddhist genocide.

People are people, they do bad things. Some people are not completely bad and need an excuse to do the bad things they want to do. If their religion gives them those excuses I don't really think it is a good religion.  Deifying and constructing a religion around a person who by today's standards would be in the Hague facing charges as a war criminal is a bad idea. Good luck reforming that. Gild that turd all you want it will never shine. I draw the line at genocide, theft, vendetta, war and murder masquerading as God's Work.
 
Nemo888 said:
Some religions actively encourage genocide, like in the Koran. Some are completely steadfast against war and murder, like Buddhism. There has never been a Buddhist genocide.

People are people, they do bad things. Some people are not completely bad and need an excuse to do the bad things they want to do. If their religion gives them those excuses I don't really think it is a good religion.  Deifying and constructing a religion around a person who by today's standards would be in the Hague facing charges as a war criminal is a bad idea. Good luck reforming that. Gild that turd all you want it will never shine. I draw the line at genocide, theft, vendetta, war and murder masquerading as God's Work.

So then if the Quran actively encouraged genocide would you care to give some examples of Muslims actually committing genocide. Since you're talking about holding Muhammad to today's standards maybe you could find examples of pre-modern genocides committed by Muslims that abide by today's standards of what genocide is. (Hopefully in doing so you can see how ridiculous it is to hold events of the past to modern standards.)

Edit: I'll actually get right to my point. My point is that the first genocide, as we understand it, by Muslims was committed in 1915. If the Quran was so adamant in encouraging genocide why did it take them 1300 years to actually put it into practice?

You say yourself that people do bad things and some look for excuses to do the bad things they want to do. That is fine, and I completely agree. But then you go on and single out Islam, when in reality you could have singled out or included any number of factors (other religions being one) that cause people to do bad things. It seems pretty intellectually dishonest to point out that you draw the line at "genocide, theft, vendetta, war and murder masquerading as God's Work" while only speaking of Islam when the exact same things happened in other religions.

Edit #2: One more thing I have to point reading your previous posts is how much you do not know of what you speak. This quote in particular:

Nemo888 said:
Islam is the only religion to actively condone genocide. Buddhism, Christianity and Hinduism do not. Talmudic texts have acts of genocide in them, but never actively condones those acts or names groups to wipe out. The Koran does. People not "of the book" are to be exterminated. Sorry if that shocks you.

People not of the Quran are to be exterminated you say? How in the world do you account for all those Arab Christians who were allowed to practice their faith and enjoy the security of Islamic states?

Would you also be so kind as to point out the passage that clearly condones genocide so that we can all know where the crux of your entire argument lies.
 
Gimpy said:
People not of the Quran are to be exterminated you say? How in the world do you account for all those Arab Christians who were allowed to practice their faith and enjoy the security of Islamic states?

The status of Christians and Jews under Islamic rule is known as Dhimmitude, and is basically a tolerance or sufferance of having non believers living amongst you so long as they pay a tax. or more specifically:

Dhimmis, “protected” or “guilty” people, are free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but are made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur'an's command that they "feel themselves subdued" (Sura 9:29).

In the real world, virtually all Jews have been driven from Middle Eastern countries, and Christians are persecuted or attacked (Coptic Christians were recently targeted in Egypt), regardless of what the Quran might say. Muslims are far safer in Canada or Israel than non Muslims are in Egypt or any other Middle Eastern nation.
 
Thucydides said:
The status of Christians and Jews under Islamic rule is known as Dhimmitude, and is basically a tolerance or sufferance of having non believers living amongst you so long as they pay a tax. or more specifically:

Dhimmis, “protected” or “guilty” people, are free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but are made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur'an's command that they "feel themselves subdued" (Sura 9:29).

In the real world, virtually all Jews have been driven from Middle Eastern countries, and Christians are persecuted or attacked (Coptic Christians were recently targeted in Egypt), regardless of what the Quran might say. Muslims are far safer in Canada or Israel than non Muslims are in Egypt or any other Middle Eastern nation.

Yes I do know the history of it, but you're really just reinforcing my point. I was simply pointing out that the poster was incorrect in stating that people not of the book were to be exterminated.

exterminate: to get rid of by destroying; destroy totally (Which is obviously not the case)
 
Gimpy said:
Yes I do know the history of it, but you're really just reinforcing my point. I was simply pointing out that the poster was incorrect in stating that people not of the book were to be exterminated.

exterminate: to get rid of by destroying; destroy totally (Which is obviously not the case)
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, Sura  9:5

There is no tolerance of people not "of the book". People of the book being Christians and Jews. Idolaters like Hindus, Buddhists and Pagans were not allowed to convert and were to be killed. If you are correct find me some Buddhists in Afghanistan. Afghanistan was once so advanced it produced one of the wonders of the ancient world, the Buddhas of Bamiyan. If you travel you can see their calling card from Alexandria to the tip of India. Almost every old statue has the nose or entire face smashed off. The first genocide is celebrated yearly. It's buried under this black box called Mecca. The seat of power of a once prosperous polytheistic Pagan society that no longer exists, ie exterminated. The Muslim invasions of India had the occasional genocide. The destruction of the worlds largest Library in Alexandria(Egypt) and Nalanda(India) the worlds largest university (pre-internet) were both completely destroyed by Muslim fanatics.

Recent history is no exception. Pakistan had a huge Sikh and Hindu population pre 1947, but good luck finding any there now without a shovel. The 1971 genocide by the Pakistani military in what is now Bangladesh killed roughly 2.4 million Hindus. Is that recent enough?

Human nature is what it is. I don't think most people would argue that genocide is a good thing. Unassailable scriptural infallibility for a truly murderous philosophy is always going to end badly. I can't turn a war criminal into a paragon of virtue without warping everything I believe in. I have held this in for almost two decades in the name of tolerance.

 
Thucydides said:
The status of Christians and Jews under Islamic rule is known as Dhimmitude, and is basically a tolerance or sufferance of having non believers living amongst you so long as they pay a tax. or more specifically:

Dhimmis, “protected” or “guilty” people, are free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but are made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur'an's command that they "feel themselves subdued" (Sura 9:29).

Actually, dhimmitude is a neologism coined by a Lebanese Christian in the 1980s and recently rediscovered by the sort of bloviating morons whose blogs you frequently link.  The word and concept of how non-Muslisms live in Muslim states is actually dhimma.  And "dhimmitude", used mostly in a pejorative sense, doesn't really reflect the reality of what the it actually is about.  Dhimmis paid a tax (jizya) but were exempted from military service obligations and zakat (a tithing tax in Islamic states, essentially), and were otherwise free to carry on practicing their religion with relatively few restrictions.  Historically it applied primarily to Christians and Jews, but also to Zoroastrians and other religious groups.

Thucydides said:
In the real world, virtually all Jews have been driven from Middle Eastern countries, and Christians are persecuted or attacked (Coptic Christians were recently targeted in Egypt), regardless of what the Quran might say. Muslims are far safer in Canada or Israel than non Muslims are in Egypt or any other Middle Eastern nation.

Really?  I bet a whole lot of Lebanese Christians would disagree with you on that claim.  And Copts and Muslims have coexisted peacefully for centuries in Egypt, recent tensions were probably opportunism during the chaos of the Arab spring.  Significantly, during the events in Egypt, Muslims guarded Copts while they celebrated a mass and wedding at Tahrir Square, and the Coptic community held the Square while Muslims went to their prayers.

Is Islam a great religion of peace?  Probably not especially historically, but neither is virtually any other religion.  All have blood on their hands when you really look.
 
The original thread was on left of centre thought. In the last few pages, the discussion has drifted pretty heavily towards religious discussion. I am wondering if it would be smart for me begin a new thread entitled "Debating Religion".
 
Technoviking said:
For starters, the phrase "bloviating moron" is now entrenched in my vocabulary ;D

Anyway, one must attempt to stop branding a religion as of peace or not of peace.  THe thing is, human beings are a pretty crappy race when it comes down to it.  Be it religion, the price of tea in China, or whatever, humans seem to find a way to do really evil things to one another

So, in the sense that human beings have used pretty well all religions in an attempt to justify their evil ways, yes, they have blood on their hands.
Actually no. There has never been a Jain holy war, or any Jain war for that matter. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism)  They experienced the holy might of Muslim Justice many times. Even so there are over 4 million of them left. Buddhism will take a bit longer to explain. I'm lazy and will let my friend who is rather well read on the subject speak for me.
While there have certainly been cases where Buddhists have attempted to legitimize their violent behavior, such as many Japanese Buddhists during WWII, an objective look at the Buddha's discourses in the Pali Canon shows that there's absolutely no scriptural basis for violence or violent behavior whatsoever, and most of the justifications for the use of violence are either secular in nature or influenced by ideas foreign to Buddhism proper.

Buddhism, as with Jainism, is founded on the principle of ahimsa or harmlessness and non-violence.T he Buddha never condoned violence, going so far as to lay down rules expelling monks and nuns who even spoke in favour of killing. For example, from the Vinita Vatthu:

A bhikkhu [i.e., Buddhist monk] advises an executioner to kill his victims mercifully with a single blow, rather than torturing them. The executioner follows his advice, and the bhikkhu incurs a parajika [i.e., 'defeat,' expelled from the Sangha]. This judgment indicates that a bhikkhu should not involve himself in matters of this sort, no matter how humane his intentions.

Another example of the his teachings on non-violence from the discourses; although, in context, it's exaggerated example used illustrate the correct way to develop patience and maintain the five aspects of right speech even under trying conditions (MN 21):

Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves.

Of course, being human, 'Buddhists' are just as likely to commit acts of violence as anyone else, but I don't think their violent acts can be attributed to the Buddha's teachings or to Buddhism in general, and much of the collective use of violence by Buddhists hasn't historically been religiously motivated.

The recent war in Sri Lanka, for example, was an ethnic civil war between the predominately Sinhalese government and predominately Tamil separatist militant organization. This was a conflict that had its roots in the British colonization of Sri Lanka (Ceylon) and their importation of Tamil labourers from southern India to work in tea, coffee and coconut plantations (see Sri Lanka time line).

In regards to the corrupt military junta that rules Burma (Myanmar) with an iron fist, many of which are Buddhist, it's been the Buddhist monks in Burma who've actually lead the largest non-violent protests against the brutal and corrupt regime to date (see Saffron Revolution).

As for the abuse of Burmese refugees by Thai authorities, there's simply no excuse for that, but I think it stems more from Thailand's fears of Burma's military and their reliance on shared gas pipelines than anything else. The Thai authorities simply don't want to do anything that might antagonize Burma's ruling junta, which is a shame since this lack of compassion is directly opposed to the Buddha's teachings.

In the case of the Japanese Buddhists during WWII, much of their pro-nationalistic and pro-militaristic stance was influence by Japan's samurai warrior culture, which, taking elements of their native Shinto religion and Zen, and combining them with bushido (way of the warrior), lead to a religious philosophy that was able to justify (and even glorify) the use of violence.

That said, it's often assumed that Buddhists must be strict pacifists, but the Buddha never forbade kings or soldiers, even those actively engaged in warfare, from becoming lay-followers, so it certainly wasn't a requirement (although he certainly didn't approve of their actions, either). He also didn't say that one shouldn't defend oneself when necessary. Nevertheless, pacifism is definitely inline with the first precept and the principle of harmlessness. In fact, I think Thanissaro Bhikkhu makes a pretty good case for this in his essay "Getting the Message." Matthew Kosuta also makes a good case for this in his paper, "The Buddha and the Four-Limbed Army: The Military in the Pali Canon".
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/gettingmessage.html
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma6/militarycanon.html


This type of cultural relativism is what is so awful about progressive thought. Have some stones and say that any religion that actively approves of and advocates genocide is wrong. To me this is worse than wanting more public funding for counseling teen mothers or wanting to privatize healthcare.  This is not a historical problem either.
“Everybody does it” is a poor excuse and probably not much solace to the 2.4 million dead Hindus from 1971 or the probably 50 million dead since 1000ce (Hindu,Buddhist,Jain). It is also not true. There are no Jain or Buddhist genocides. These religions are so strongly anti-violence that you would have to quit them to commit such acts. You would never be considered a hero for murdering millions or dropping a nuke on NYC. 
 
>Christians, were, are, and will continue to be just as likely to do these things as muslims. 

Christians are the reason I have to take off my shoes and dump my toothpaste into a trashcan before boarding a plane?
 
toyotatundra said:
The original thread was on left of centre thought. In the last few pages, the discussion has drifted pretty heavily towards religious discussion. I am wondering if it would be smart for me begin a new thread entitled "Debating Religion".

It would be very 'unsmart'. Don't bother, don't think about it. I would suggest though, that you just kick back and relax. Go on listening silence, or you may end up on forced rest.

Milnet.ca Staff
 
Technoviking said:
For starters, the phrase "bloviating moron" is now entrenched in my vocabulary ;D

I think the word was originally coined to describe Bill O'Reilly - but it's a good one, I like it.

Technoviking said:
Anyway, one must attempt to stop branding a religion as of peace or not of peace.  THe thing is, human beings are a pretty crappy race when it comes down to it.  Be it religion, the price of tea in China, or whatever, humans seem to find a way to do really evil things to one another

For the most part, I agree.  Most adherents of any religion have no interest in using that religion to justify violence or any form of evil.  It's just a tiny fringe that does, really, and when you look at religious extremism of any stripe, there tends to be other factors at play.  Most Islamic extremism is fueled by socioeconomic issues as well, for example.

Blaise Pascal put it well, though: "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
 
Technoviking said:
Though I agree that "Men do evil completely and cheerfully", but I would offer that religion isn't the only game in town.  Witness the period 1930-ish to 1945-ish.  Hitler, Tojo and Stalin were anything but religious people leading religious regimes.

(As an aside, I mentioned this once to a guy, who came back and said "Hitler was a Roman Catholic".  Perhaps he was baptised as such as an infant, and perhaps he went to mass and did his sacraments and the like growing up, maybe, but as Führer of the German Empire, he never once even pretented to be spreading "the Gospel according to Adolf")

Tojo, Stalin and Hitler may not have offered a religion but they certainly bound followers to them with a creed.  When is a creed not a creed but a religion?
 
Technoviking said:
So, we're calling nationalism a religion now?  Even if it's atheist?  Christ, I follow a creed that is completely secular in the performance of my military duties, does that mean it's religious?


So, to answer with an answer (and not with a question), a creed is not a religion would be, oh, I don't know, when it's secular, perhaps.  Or even when it's atheist.


I agree - Loazi's original Tao (way), for example, was not meant to be a religion but it, part of it anyway, morphed into one and elements of Loaizi's Tao found their way into later Confucian and even Buddhist texts and practices.

I think we are best to leave the word "creed" in the religious domain because it refers to a belief but, of course, one can believe in something, like the core Tao for example, that is not religious.
 
Hey TV and ERC - accepted I may be stretching a point but my own belief, credo or creed is that regardless of rationale, religious or secular, a person's willingness to accept and act according to that creed can be used by others to find, create and manipulate followers.  Sometimes those manipulators have good intentions and sometimes not so good.  The only safeguard against that kind of manipulation is the kind of independent thought that the entire body of this forum regularly demonstrates.

Put another way,  I don't see a difference between a sacred religion and a secular religion in the way that they can be used to marshall followers to a cause.


Cheers.
 
Fair enough, Kirkhill; I got my idea from am acquaintance who is practicing Taoist but who, also, self describes and registers, formally when necessary, as "no religion." He believes in the Toa (way) but he accepts no gods, of any kind - not even the Three Pure Ones. He simply refers to the Three Purities as the source of all in the universe - a metaphysical representation of the Big Bang, if you like.
 
recceguy said:
It would be very 'unsmart'. Don't bother, don't think about it. I would suggest though, that you just kick back and relax. Go on listening silence, or you may end up on forced rest.

Milnet.ca Staff

Sorry, my experience is with forums that had a different set of moderating rules. I will work to adapt.
 
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