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Haggis said:
Actually, I was thinking of the "original rant/post".
DIRECTED AT SERVING-MEMBER HUSBANDS.
- Thread starter warpig
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Actually, I was thinking of the "original rant/post".
Eye In The Sky
Army.ca Legend
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Shamrock said:
I can't tell people what to hold as their own opinion. What I can say is that I worked with him before, have watched him with recruits, and that he is not one of the 'problem' Instructors some people may encounter on BMQ, IAP or BOTP. Thats all. I am sure if you spoke to the recruits he has put thru up there, you'd hear good things. I know I did after I left CFLRS from a few of them that I've bumped into.
FWIW, it was directed to you and in general, to all, but not harshly, just a point to note. 8)
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I think the point of the Sgt's post is that a service member's spouse should show up better prepared and in better shape to take on BMQ than any other recruit, and it simply isn't happening. The serving spouse should be doing everything in their power to prepare their other half for BMQ, from tips and tricks on inspection to physical fitness to instilling mental toughness. Thats the least the serving spouse should be doing. Sending a fat, lazy, mentally frail person off to BMQ with a slap on the ass and a "good frickin' luck, see you in 13 weeks ... maybe!" is NOT ON! Recruits off the street don't do that, they are told what the standard is and its up to them to achieve it, a supportive spouse or family will help them to do that. If they don't, if they show up unfit, unprepared, and unmotivated, they will fail as well, and their family can be just as much to blame as the service spouse's. A service spouse on course can be a HUGE advantage to the other recruits, they know the tricks that might be pulled, they know that the instructors ranting and raving isn't personal. They know its a game. They know that on the course calendar, there is "scheduled c*ck." They know that parade gloss will not destroy combat boots. If they pass on this knowledge it can help the rest of their course mates.
On the other side of the coin ... have you ever tried "training" your wife? Give it a try, get your wife to run till it hurts then keep going. Get your wife to do push-ups till her arms are jelly. She'll tell you to beat it, and stop being so mean. She knows you mean well, but you can't jack your wife like she's a troop. They don't like that. She knows the standard she has to meet, but until she actually gets trained to soldier, you can't train her like a soldier. So, when it hurts, full stop. When her arms are tired, full stop. When her muscles ache, full stop. Thats a far cry from the "do it till it hurts, then do 5 more" attitude most of us carry when it comes to PT. It takes a long time to train someone to the standard required like that.
Once you have your spouse sent off as prepared as they can be, your job still isn't done. You have to support them as best you can, its still a severe culture shock. Encouragement and reassurance are required right through your spouse's QL3 training.
On the other side of the coin ... have you ever tried "training" your wife? Give it a try, get your wife to run till it hurts then keep going. Get your wife to do push-ups till her arms are jelly. She'll tell you to beat it, and stop being so mean. She knows you mean well, but you can't jack your wife like she's a troop. They don't like that. She knows the standard she has to meet, but until she actually gets trained to soldier, you can't train her like a soldier. So, when it hurts, full stop. When her arms are tired, full stop. When her muscles ache, full stop. Thats a far cry from the "do it till it hurts, then do 5 more" attitude most of us carry when it comes to PT. It takes a long time to train someone to the standard required like that.
Once you have your spouse sent off as prepared as they can be, your job still isn't done. You have to support them as best you can, its still a severe culture shock. Encouragement and reassurance are required right through your spouse's QL3 training.
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So here we have yet another instructor from St Jean bitching about service members not helping out their spouses.
They are adults and most of us are gone on tour or preparing our own soldiers for battle and don't have the time to hold hands never mind train their wives.
I have a few complaints as well about your world:
- not weeding problem children out before they graduate.
- allowing troops to come out of there with shaving chits in hand.
- pushing troops through because of quotas.
If you think coming here and giving anyone who is serving in a combat unit a blast of shyte and walking away scott free, you're sorely mistaken.
You may want to get rid of both your name and email address for the minions while someone here may actively sort you out through official channels.
The Army.ca Staff
They are adults and most of us are gone on tour or preparing our own soldiers for battle and don't have the time to hold hands never mind train their wives.
I have a few complaints as well about your world:
- not weeding problem children out before they graduate.
- allowing troops to come out of there with shaving chits in hand.
- pushing troops through because of quotas.
If you think coming here and giving anyone who is serving in a combat unit a blast of shyte and walking away scott free, you're sorely mistaken.
You may want to get rid of both your name and email address for the minions while someone here may actively sort you out through official channels.
The Army.ca Staff
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This may be a little crown royal induced, but I have to ask where do you get off? If I as a female wish to join the CF, wither my sig. other, spouse what have you in a serving member or not how the hell is it that persons responsibility to make sure I meet my requirements as a soldier.
That frankly is f-ing insulting as a female, that you apparently expect that my sig. other should hold my hand and spoon feed me. I am a civvy for the time being by way, and I suspect that will stay that way for awhile. But if I so chose to join the Canadian Forces, I would be doing so on my own will, and merit. Therefore it would be my responsibility to educate myself, and get myself up to standards, not my sig. other. His career would be his responsibility and mine would be my own.
I sure as well wouldn't want my sig other meddling with my civvy career, if I ever caught him on a site telling me how I should and shouldn't approach a problem, or how I should prep for something differently I would more than likely tear him and new one, he would leave bleeding.
You have some chip on your shoulders, and I don't know where in Hades it came from, but this is no place for it, and insulting service members who are male, who frankly may or may not have their female counterpart in the Canadian Forces as well is disgusting, way to be professional.
If it's because someone didn't help with you with your training and you think they should have then get over it, you evidently got through it anyway, what do you want from the rest of us a gold star?
Thus is my two cents, now back to my Crown, and my geotech report.
That frankly is f-ing insulting as a female, that you apparently expect that my sig. other should hold my hand and spoon feed me. I am a civvy for the time being by way, and I suspect that will stay that way for awhile. But if I so chose to join the Canadian Forces, I would be doing so on my own will, and merit. Therefore it would be my responsibility to educate myself, and get myself up to standards, not my sig. other. His career would be his responsibility and mine would be my own.
I sure as well wouldn't want my sig other meddling with my civvy career, if I ever caught him on a site telling me how I should and shouldn't approach a problem, or how I should prep for something differently I would more than likely tear him and new one, he would leave bleeding.
You have some chip on your shoulders, and I don't know where in Hades it came from, but this is no place for it, and insulting service members who are male, who frankly may or may not have their female counterpart in the Canadian Forces as well is disgusting, way to be professional.
If it's because someone didn't help with you with your training and you think they should have then get over it, you evidently got through it anyway, what do you want from the rest of us a gold star?
Thus is my two cents, now back to my Crown, and my geotech report.
A
aesop081
Guest
Recce By Death said:
....Or ANY unit for that matter.
I agree with everyone who, using their own brand of flare, stated that once a recruit arrives at CFLRS, they are fully responsible to pass the course on their own. Of course that's the case, and nobody would argue otherwise, though some here seem to think that was the focus.
The facts here are simple: English Service Member's wives fail their first BMQ by a large percentage of total entering. Again, there are no definitive stats kept but it is my professional opinion that they fail as a group far more often than most other demographic groups.
What I think people here failed to appreciate is that member's wives are in the unique position of having every advantage to be prepared. That would include PSP testing and access to excellent facilities and personalized training programs at a fraction of the cost civilians would face. That would also include access to newly graduated CF members for honest opinions, tips and advice, as well as professional advice from Cadres and past Instructors. My point is that despite all this, most Svc mbr's wives fail.
Agreed, the women should have been better prepared.
However, most of you ignored the role a husband so advantageously positioned should be obligated to fill. You ignored my point that this costs the CF far too much money and we loose people we need who would otherwise have passed. Or did I miss your detailed critique of these points? No, I didn't think I did.
To the Aviation Sgt with lots of game but no apparent effort to actually put up the facts to back himself up, think about the money lost that would have kept you productive by flying in a forces aircraft and away from wasting your time at a computer terminal during this debate! If at this time you would actually care to place a factual argument on the forum, do so. If your sole expertise and experience is that one wife you know of who passed the course, it can hardly be considered more than opinion based on a single example. While I am talking about hundreds of examples at the source of the problem.
To Mr Wallace, baring hyperbole, don't you think that a Svc Mbr would in fact have some responsibility to insure his wife arrived at her course prepared? Would you describe as excellent Forces material any CF member who would simply shrug off his wife's chance to get into the forces as just another Tupperware gimmick? Do you honestly think that represents the kind of professionalism we would like to work with? Would you consider a coworker so disinterested to be the kind of guy you would populate the Forces with if given a chance? Just asking, as perhaps you mistook my point to be a blanket attack on married life in the Forces, which it is not. This is a specific point about certain recruits and not a general point on the difficulties of marriage.
Look, this is a problem that shouldn't be there. Svc Mbr's wives should fail at the same rate the average person fails. Not in numbers vastly greater. I certainly don't disagree with everyone when the bottom line is individual accountability, but time and money IS being waisted. One solution is for Service Member husbands to be more proactive in aiding their wives. Hey, it's not MY wife who's sitting on Pat Platoon while the hubby is managing two kids and a career by himself for 18 months, now is it? Do you like paying his wife to sit on Pat that long? I've heard your opinions and over a beer we would probably agree more than disagree. But if you've no solutions other than "suck it up buttercup", I think the future husbands facing this problem have heard all you got to offer.
The facts here are simple: English Service Member's wives fail their first BMQ by a large percentage of total entering. Again, there are no definitive stats kept but it is my professional opinion that they fail as a group far more often than most other demographic groups.
What I think people here failed to appreciate is that member's wives are in the unique position of having every advantage to be prepared. That would include PSP testing and access to excellent facilities and personalized training programs at a fraction of the cost civilians would face. That would also include access to newly graduated CF members for honest opinions, tips and advice, as well as professional advice from Cadres and past Instructors. My point is that despite all this, most Svc mbr's wives fail.
Agreed, the women should have been better prepared.
However, most of you ignored the role a husband so advantageously positioned should be obligated to fill. You ignored my point that this costs the CF far too much money and we loose people we need who would otherwise have passed. Or did I miss your detailed critique of these points? No, I didn't think I did.
To the Aviation Sgt with lots of game but no apparent effort to actually put up the facts to back himself up, think about the money lost that would have kept you productive by flying in a forces aircraft and away from wasting your time at a computer terminal during this debate! If at this time you would actually care to place a factual argument on the forum, do so. If your sole expertise and experience is that one wife you know of who passed the course, it can hardly be considered more than opinion based on a single example. While I am talking about hundreds of examples at the source of the problem.
To Mr Wallace, baring hyperbole, don't you think that a Svc Mbr would in fact have some responsibility to insure his wife arrived at her course prepared? Would you describe as excellent Forces material any CF member who would simply shrug off his wife's chance to get into the forces as just another Tupperware gimmick? Do you honestly think that represents the kind of professionalism we would like to work with? Would you consider a coworker so disinterested to be the kind of guy you would populate the Forces with if given a chance? Just asking, as perhaps you mistook my point to be a blanket attack on married life in the Forces, which it is not. This is a specific point about certain recruits and not a general point on the difficulties of marriage.
Look, this is a problem that shouldn't be there. Svc Mbr's wives should fail at the same rate the average person fails. Not in numbers vastly greater. I certainly don't disagree with everyone when the bottom line is individual accountability, but time and money IS being waisted. One solution is for Service Member husbands to be more proactive in aiding their wives. Hey, it's not MY wife who's sitting on Pat Platoon while the hubby is managing two kids and a career by himself for 18 months, now is it? Do you like paying his wife to sit on Pat that long? I've heard your opinions and over a beer we would probably agree more than disagree. But if you've no solutions other than "suck it up buttercup", I think the future husbands facing this problem have heard all you got to offer.
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Are there really that many "service couples" out there? How many divorce once the more junior of the two is in the training system? I bet lots ;D
A
aesop081
Guest
warpig said:
What i do on my time off is a matter of concern to you now ?
My flying schedule is full so what i do in my home on my own time is none of your damned buisness.
My experience with this goes beyond a single wife buddy, i've instructed those who "pass" CFLRS. Anyone who goes to BMQ is responsible for their own state of fitness not the other spouse / parent / pet.
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popnfresh said:
Well, of my current 43 subordinates ... I have 14 who are a half of a "married service couple." ALL of my Sgts and MCpls are. <--- that's 6. The other 8 ... 3 are female Pte's between the ages of 28-35. No hooks at that. So they've gone through in the past couple years ... apparently 'intact'.
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Warpig
Well! I'm calling BS.
The CF does keep very strict records of its Training systems, and I am positive that your stats are totally out to lunch. They are your opinion, and your opinion only.
Try looking up the stats for Female Failure Rates that are kept and then argue your point. Until then, it is only opinion.
As for Civilian Females arriving more prepared than Military Wives who have all the assets at their finger tips, then it still boils down to the individual and the tools they have chosen to use to prepare for BMQ. Do Civilian husbands do such a better job than military husbands in preparing their wives for BMQ? I highly doubt it. It is the Woman who is preparing.
You and RCR Grunt have said so in your own posts, and then flip flopped to blame the Service Members for dropping the ball. Sorry. I have to call BS to your insinuations and blanket statements.
Well! I'm calling BS.
The CF does keep very strict records of its Training systems, and I am positive that your stats are totally out to lunch. They are your opinion, and your opinion only.
Try looking up the stats for Female Failure Rates that are kept and then argue your point. Until then, it is only opinion.
As for Civilian Females arriving more prepared than Military Wives who have all the assets at their finger tips, then it still boils down to the individual and the tools they have chosen to use to prepare for BMQ. Do Civilian husbands do such a better job than military husbands in preparing their wives for BMQ? I highly doubt it. It is the Woman who is preparing.
You and RCR Grunt have said so in your own posts, and then flip flopped to blame the Service Members for dropping the ball. Sorry. I have to call BS to your insinuations and blanket statements.
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I agree with what warpig has to say, having my husband in the military before me I feel gave me an advantage when I left for bmq. I definitely feel I was more prepared than the average person. Not to say that I didn't have my ups and downs, that is to be expected, but having someone at home who knows what you are going thru was a huge advantage. I saw wives who's husbands didn't prepare them and weren't supportive of their decision to join, and that had a tremendous effect on their performance during bmq and the stresses that they went thru. It's never going to be easy, but at least being prepared will make it go a little better and make you be a better soldier. I hope that makes sense.
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Money apparently lost is a poor excuse, there can't be that many service couple in ratio to the other recruits that come through the system. Single people fall all the time, and I would imagine cost the CF money as well, because they are not prepared properly.
I'm a baby engineer and like numbers, so let's crunch some, you equate failure with costing the CF money, okay I can understand that. But who really cares, you end up with a course where you have lets say 3 females who are whose sig. others are CF members, and they all get prepared properly, but you still have 6 single recruits who didn't prep properly and fail out, they are gonna cost the CF just as much if not more, thus CF funds down the drain, failure is just that, who they are married to is insignificant.
I'm a baby engineer and like numbers, so let's crunch some, you equate failure with costing the CF money, okay I can understand that. But who really cares, you end up with a course where you have lets say 3 females who are whose sig. others are CF members, and they all get prepared properly, but you still have 6 single recruits who didn't prep properly and fail out, they are gonna cost the CF just as much if not more, thus CF funds down the drain, failure is just that, who they are married to is insignificant.
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OK all - back to corners please.
Locked for a cooling-off period, will be unlocked tomorrow.
I have no dog in this fight and I see no good coming of continuing this thread at its present course and speed.
The Army.ca Staff
Locked for a cooling-off period, will be unlocked tomorrow.
I have no dog in this fight and I see no good coming of continuing this thread at its present course and speed.
The Army.ca Staff
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Unlocked in case there is any more relevant discussion on this item.
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By all thats alive and holy Lorne, I thought I knew how to properly poke the tiger in the eye but you my friend, well this is impressive. I bow to your courage.
Having worked a stint at CFLRS all I can say is I'll stick to the Meaford School for Misguided Youth , as you know we go through many of the same problems as you in the RS . Take care say Hi to the wive and kids and remember its not how well you play the game but that you don't get caught cheating.
Stew
Having worked a stint at CFLRS all I can say is I'll stick to the Meaford School for Misguided Youth , as you know we go through many of the same problems as you in the RS . Take care say Hi to the wive and kids and remember its not how well you play the game but that you don't get caught cheating.
Stew
D
Deleted member 30710
Guest
Why does personal responsibility suddenly go out the window when the person involved is a woman? Have you ever stopped to think that maybe it has nothing to do with their husbands but their own attitudes? I would be pretty insulted if you told me I failed because my dad (or anyone else for that matter) failed to hold my hand. I'm a woman, not a child.
I may not have a dick, but I assure you I have balls. I know how to be responsible for myself. I may not know exactly what to expect, but I know how to read. You see, at the recruitment office, they hand out this booklet that gives you a guideline on how to prepare yourself. There are many resources on the internet. You should know this.
If I fail, its my fault, not my dad's, not my boyfriend's, not anyones. It's mine.
I may not have a dick, but I assure you I have balls. I know how to be responsible for myself. I may not know exactly what to expect, but I know how to read. You see, at the recruitment office, they hand out this booklet that gives you a guideline on how to prepare yourself. There are many resources on the internet. You should know this.
If I fail, its my fault, not my dad's, not my boyfriend's, not anyones. It's mine.
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